Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?

[Enlightened-One]

He can't disagree with any of my facts, since they are what they are. No one can rewrite history.

Fantasizing about what Ruiz would do to Liston is hardly a fact. You take facts and then extrapolate them to guess work and fantasy.

You're lying again. Stop employing dishonest debating tactics. Either quote my words in their true context or refrain from lying!

The sentence of mine you quoted was in relation to the following facts I'd listed in my immediately preceding post:

The six feet tall Floyd Patterson officially weighed 189lbs for the first Sonny Liston bout.

And here's what light heavyweights typically rehydrate to:

• Isaac Chilemba’s rehydration weight against Dmitry Bivol was 189lbs.

• Eleider Alvarez weighed 187lbs for the first Sergey Kovalev bout.

• Sergey Kovalev weighed 189lbs against Jean Pascal.

• Sergey Kovalev weighed 188lbs against Bernard Hopkins.

• Adonis Stevenson and Tony Bellew weighed 189lbs and 190lbs respectively for their bout.

• Chad Dawson and Glen Johnson weighed 191lbs and 189lbs respectively for their second bout.

The 1963 version of Sonny Liston was allegedly 33½ years of age, had competed in 36 bouts, losing one of them and had gone the distance eleven times. He wasn't as heavy-handed as many believe him to be.

The 1963 version of Sonny Liston would have been a few years older, eight inches shorter and roughly sixty pounds lighter than Tyson Fury.

The 1963 version of Sonny Liston had never KO’d any world-rated heavyweight opponent that weighed 216lbs or more.

The 1963 version of Sonny Liston had never defeated any world-rated heavyweight opponent that outweighed him by 5lbs or more.

The average weight of Sonny’s opponents for the first 36 bouts of his career was 196lbs, which is much smaller than today’s cruiserweights (who all have to dehydrate in order to make weight).

Liston’s average weight during the same period was only 207lbs and he wasn’t particularly well-muscled or defined either.

The average height & weight of modern-day heavyweights is in the region of 6′ 4½″ 247lbs.

Didn't Liston KO Ali? He must have, he was 8 LBS heavier.

That sentence doesn't resemble any of my claims. So why write it?

Can't you be honest for once and attack my actual words instead of employing strawman debating tactics?

[Tony1244]

EO, who were Joe Louis' best opponents?

[gilgamesh]

Do the scales do the fighting?

How many heavyweights (weighing 216lbs or more) had the 1963 version of Sonny Liston KO’d throughout the course of his entire career?

How many times did the 1963 version of Sonny Liston beat any world-rated heavyweight opponent that outweighed him by 5lbs or more?

Is size irrelevant when evaluating how well the 1963 version of Sonny Liston would fare against current heavyweights, especially the fact Tyson Fury is a few years younger than he was back then, coupled with being eight inches taller and roughly sixty pounds heavier?

Be honest, do you sincerely believe that size is irrelevant to the topic of this thread?

Yeah you're right.

Size matters.

A smaller man absolutely 100% never beats a bigger man.

Oh wait a minute. David Haye beat Valuev giving away 100 pounds about 13 years ago didn't he?

Hmm...it's almost like you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

How many heavyweights (weighing 216lbs or more) had the 1963 version of Sonny Liston KO’d throughout the course of his entire career?

How many times did the 1963 version of Sonny Liston beat any world-rated heavyweight opponent that outweighed him by 5lbs or more?

Is size irrelevant when evaluating how well the 1963 version of Sonny Liston would fare against current heavyweights, especially the fact Tyson Fury is a few years younger than he was back then, coupled with being eight inches taller and roughly sixty pounds heavier?

Be honest, do you sincerely believe that size is irrelevant to the topic of this thread?

Yeah you're right.

Size matters.

A smaller man absolutely 100% never beats a bigger man.

Oh wait a minute. David Haye beat Valuev giving away 100 pounds about 13 years ago didn't he?

Hmm...it's almost like you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.

You need to address all his questions gil or you are scared and admitting defeat. EO logic 101

[gilgamesh]

I address the ones that are relevant.

[Tony1244]

Yeah you're right.

Size matters.

A smaller man absolutely 100% never beats a bigger man.

Oh wait a minute. David Haye beat Valuev giving away 100 pounds about 13 years ago didn't he?

Hmm...it's almost like you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.

You need to address all his questions gil or you are scared and admitting defeat. EO logic 101

Not just scared but "terrified." EO asks silly questions that anyone can look up. I'm waiting on pins and needles for him to answer my question: Who were Louis' best opponents?

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Its ok to think liston is overrated and beat smaller fighters therefore he would have issues with bigger men of today. But the way he argues is so poor and hes so sure hes brilliant it is just hilarious

[gilgamesh]

Its ok to think liston is overrated and beat smaller fighters therefore he would have issues with bigger men of today. But the way he argues is so poor and hes so sure hes brilliant it is just hilarious

Yeah I mean I'm not foolish enough to suggest that Liston just mops the floor with all the Heavyweights of today, I don't think that's the case.

But it's certainly equally ridiculous to think he has no chance against the Heavyweights of today.

Any fighter in any era that achieved the heights that Liston did would have to at the very least be competitive. It's not as if the sport of fighting changed so drastically in the last 40 years that it's simply not even the same thing.

Plus, you drop a guy in the modern era with "Modern Training Techniques" well then, he has those same modern techniques at his disposal now doesn't he?

Either side of the fence you fall on with "Current fighters could never beat Old timers..." or "Old Legends could never compete today"

Is equally ridiculous. Styles make fights. Every Boxing fan should know that.

This fact crosses the generations, and the eras in Boxing.

[Tony1244]

Its ok to think liston is overrated and beat smaller fighters therefore he would have issues with bigger men of today. But the way he argues is so poor and hes so sure hes brilliant it is just hilarious

He talks about red herring arguments; he is the master of that. His "logic" is Liston never beat anyone who weighed more than 230, so therefore he couldn't have beaten anyone who weighed more than 230.

He doesn't like facts such as Liston's and Louis' best opponents, weren't their biggest opponents.

[Enlightened-One]

How many heavyweights (weighing 216lbs or more) had the 1963 version of Sonny Liston KO’d throughout the course of his entire career?

How many times did the 1963 version of Sonny Liston beat any world-rated heavyweight opponent that outweighed him by 5lbs or more?

Is size irrelevant when evaluating how well the 1963 version of Sonny Liston would fare against current heavyweights, especially the fact Tyson Fury is a few years younger than he was back then, coupled with being eight inches taller and roughly sixty pounds heavier?

Be honest, do you sincerely believe that size is irrelevant to the topic of this thread?

Yeah you're right.

Size matters.

A smaller man absolutely 100% never beats a bigger man.

Oh wait a minute. David Haye beat Valuev giving away 100 pounds about 13 years ago didn't he?

Hmm...it's almost like you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.

Exceptions don’t undermine the general rule though, do they?

If size didn’t matter, then why bother with weight classes?

If size didn’t matter, why are people always outraged when the likes of Mayweather, Pacquiao and Canelo demand catchweights and rehydration clauses?

If my questions fail to support my stance that size really does matter, then why are people so scared to provide answers to them?

And one more question, when have I ever said a small man never beats a bigger man?

I haven’t!

Hmm...it's almost like you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Its ok to think liston is overrated and beat smaller fighters therefore he would have issues with bigger men of today. But the way he argues is so poor and hes so sure hes brilliant it is just hilarious

Yeah I mean I'm not foolish enough to suggest that Liston just mops the floor with all the Heavyweights of today, I don't think that's the case.

But it's certainly equally ridiculous to think he has no chance against the Heavyweights of today.

Any fighter in any era that achieved the heights that Liston did would have to at the very least be competitive. It's not as if the sport of fighting changed so drastically in the last 40 years that it's simply not even the same thing.

Plus, you drop a guy in the modern era with "Modern Training Techniques" well then, he has those same modern techniques at his disposal now doesn't he?

Either side of the fence you fall on with "Current fighters could never beat Old timers..." or "Old Legends could never compete today"

Is equally ridiculous. Styles make fights. Every Boxing fan should know that.

This fact crosses the generations, and the eras in Boxing.

[gilgamesh]

The bigger man does generally beat the smaller man indeed.

The rule doesn't always apply though when the smaller man is great, and significantly better than the bigger man.

Which is why Pacquiao and Mayweather respectively have several wins over guys that are bigger than them. Basically everybody they ever fought from Welterweight on up, or hell in Pac's case from Lightweight on up.

Exceptions to the rule come in the form of Great fighters.

Sonny Liston was a great fighter.

[margaret thatcher]

Sonny is overrated at an atg level, but just vs the random contenders and such of this era he would do well. I think the king beats him, but he'd kick the ass of a guy like Pulev or Povetkin. On the shorter side, but he's got a great jab with a freak reach, good power and repitoire, overall a very good fighter and one who is nice to watch. Keep in mind so many hws of today are coming in with an extra layer of fat too that inflates their weight number. Liston could've easily gotten into the 230+ range without looking like a blob

A guy like Mike Hunter is even smaller and is sloppier and not as powerful, and is still top 10

I think size is important and you can't overlook it, but it's just one factor. Plus despite all the talk of hw giants today, there have always been plenty of contenders and notable players who aren't giants at all.

Pov has been top 10 for like 12-13 years now
Stubby fat Andy won a title beating a big dog
Hunter is top 10 and Usyk is majorly hyped.
We had Chag beating beat Nik,
Ruiz and Byrd holding belts for years
Lamon Brewster KOing Wlad and Golota etc.
Haye etc.
Even Chisora has crept close to the top 10
Holy and Tyson as hw greats

This isn't like Jack Johnson winning the hw title vs a 5'7 guy in the 160s

[oogiebe]

Yeah, I'm tired of the size debate.

Yeah, I’m tired about life being finite and also having to pay taxes.

It makes me weary to think there are normally 365 days per year and that most geographical regions have to undergo a period of night time every 24 hours.

And don’t get me started about rain! You think you’ve become bored of size mattering, imagine how I feel when it rains!

To make matters worse, can you believe how tiresome it is to keep reading about people’s athletic prowess declining with age! That’s boring too.

Reality can be a real bummer sometimes, eh?

Another pointless post by the troll EO.

[oogiebe]

How many heavyweights (weighing 216lbs or more) had the 1963 version of Sonny Liston KO’d throughout the course of his entire career?

How many times did the 1963 version of Sonny Liston beat any world-rated heavyweight opponent that outweighed him by 5lbs or more?

Is size irrelevant when evaluating how well the 1963 version of Sonny Liston would fare against current heavyweights, especially the fact Tyson Fury is a few years younger than he was back then, coupled with being eight inches taller and roughly sixty pounds heavier?

Be honest, do you sincerely believe that size is irrelevant to the topic of this thread?

Yeah you're right.

Size matters.

A smaller man absolutely 100% never beats a bigger man.

Oh wait a minute. David Haye beat Valuev giving away 100 pounds about 13 years ago didn't he?

Hmm...it's almost like you don't know what the f*ck you're talking about.

Almost???

[oogiebe]

The bigger man does generally beat the smaller man indeed.

The rule doesn't always apply though when the smaller man is great, and significantly better than the bigger man.

Which is why Pacquiao and Mayweather respectively have several wins over guys that are bigger than them. Basically everybody they ever fought from Welterweight on up, or hell in Pac's case from Lightweight on up.

Exceptions to the rule come in the form of Great fighters.

Sonny Liston was a great fighter.

I was going to mention that part. Thank you sir.

[oogiebe]

Its ok to think liston is overrated and beat smaller fighters therefore he would have issues with bigger men of today. But the way he argues is so poor and hes so sure hes brilliant it is just hilarious

He talks about red herring arguments; he is the master of that. His "logic" is Liston never beat anyone who weighed more than 230, so therefore he couldn't have beaten anyone who weighed more than 230.

He doesn't like facts such as Liston's and Louis' best opponents, weren't their biggest opponents.

All people drink water. All people die. Water makes you die. That generally says it all for EO's logic.

[oogiebe]

And no one cares about your stupid questions EO, that's why you're not getting any answers.

People that disagree with me flatly-refuse to answer my rather simple questions, because they realise any honest and accurate answers undermines their own argument.

Whenever the defenders of the indefensible run out of rational arguments, they resort to personal or ad hominem attacks, such as using juvenile language like “stupid”.

Ad hominem attacks are an important signal indicating that the attacker is admitting they’re wrong, very wrong indeed.

I will always celebrate personal attacks for what they truly are: they are compliments for me, victories for reason and admissions of defeat for you.

We don't answer your questions becaused they are so overly flawed, that it's a waste of time. Get over yourself. Your last statement truly shows the mental sickness you suffer! But...you make me laugh more than any other poster!

[oogiebe]

Liston's best opponents must have been Gerhard Zech 226 and Chuck Wepner 228. Tale of the Tape.

Convenient omissions. What are to do with this lad?

[Tony1244]

Liston's best opponents must have been Gerhard Zech 226 and Chuck Wepner 228. Tale of the Tape.

Convenient omissions. What are to do with this lad?

I should have mentioned: Sarcasm Personified

[oogiebe]

Convenient omissions. What are to do with this lad?

I should have mentioned: Sarcasm Personified

Duh. Of course. Obviously you are a coward because you haven't answered my question.

[Tony1244]

I should have mentioned: Sarcasm Personified

Duh. Of course. Obviously you are a coward because you haven't answered my question.

You are terrified!

[Tony1244]

I should have mentioned: Sarcasm Personified

Duh. Of course. Obviously you are a coward because you haven't answered my question.

I'll answer any question he wants me to answer, but I won't do a 6th grade like homework assignment for him. As if I'm supposed to say, no 250 LBS+ guys on Liston's resume, so therefore Butterbean and Valuev could have beaten him. IE, water causes death.

[oogiebe]

Duh. Of course. Obviously you are a coward because you haven't answered my question.

You are terrified!

We are all terrified. But you still don't answer my question. You obvious lack of courage means I win. LMFAO!

BTW: I've always felt that EO reminded me of someone and I couldn't figure it out. I did just now. Captain Queeg from "Caine Mutiny" as he became unglued at the courtmartial. LMFAO! I'ts spot on!

[Tony1244]

You are terrified!

We are all terrified. But you still don't answer my question. You obvious lack of courage means I win. LMFAO!

BTW: I've always felt that EO reminded me of someone and I couldn't figure it out. I did just now. Captain Queeg from "Caine Mutiny" as he became unglued at the courtmartial. LMFAO! I'ts spot on!

EO would never say, "I'd have no way of knowing."