Sonny Liston (1963) vs. current HWs ?

[Enlightened-One]

Still waiting on EO to list Louis' best opponents.

He won't; because it blows his theory out of the water.

Instead of being off-topic, get to the point.

Criticise me as much as you want, but at least I’m talking about Sonny Liston, which is the topic of this thread.

Whereas Joe Louis isn’t.

[Ambling Alp II]

Can't speak for Tony, but you should know that a certain point, weight stops being an advantage. At a certain point it starts being a disadvantage. It has been shown over and over throughout boxing history.

He mentioned Joe Louis as an example, because Louis' best opponents were not his biggest opponents. Take a look at how well his much larger opponents did against him.

Liston actually weighed more in 1963 that Wilder did when he had a draw against Fury. That is a fact. Liston was a much better fighter than Wilder. Therefore, it stands to reason that Liston would beat Fury.

[Seamus]

As far back as I can remember, I've been reading posts on here from guys who had Liston stopping Tyson, Foreman, Holyfield, Lewis, Frazier, the Klitschko's, one guy even claimed that prime Liston would stop Clay ! This is a guy who's biggest wins came against Patterson and Zora Folley. Off hand I can't think of too many fighters in the history of boxing who accomplished less but are praised more than Sonny Liston.

[Enlightened-One]

Can't speak for Tony, but you should know that a certain point, weight stops being an advantage. At a certain point it starts being a disadvantage. It has been shown over and over throughout boxing history.

Freakishly large fighters for their time (i.e. Nikolay Valuev and Primo Carnera) are usually at a disadvantage against smaller foes, but my comments are reserved for today's typically-sized behemoths (i.e. Dillian Whyte, Joseph Parker etc.) and also larger boxers that somehow manage to retain their athleticism (Tyson Fury, AJ etc.).

He mentioned Joe Louis as an example, because Louis' best opponents were not his biggest opponents. Take a look at how well his much larger opponents did against him.

Would you not consider the likes of Buddy Baer, Tony Galento, Max Baer and Primo Carnera amongst Joe Louis' best opponents?

Anyway, Joe Louis and Sonny Liston are different fighters, with different strengths and weaknesses. It’s not an apples to apples comparison.

Liston's hand and foot speed was unimpressive. And Sonny wasn't the biggest of punchers either (well, his in-ring feats certainly don't justify his fearsome reputation).

Liston actually weighed more in 1963 that Wilder did when he had a draw against Fury. That is a fact. Liston was a much better fighter than Wilder. Therefore, it stands to reason that Liston would beat Fury.

Do you seriously believe that size is irrelevant?

So you honestly believe that the 1963 version of Liston would defeat Tyson Fury, with the Brit being a few years younger than Sonny was back then, coupled with being eight inches taller and roughly sixty pounds heavier?

Would the 1983 iteration of Roberto Duran or the 1954 version of Archie Moore beat 1963’s Sonny Liston? And if you feel they couldn’t, what is the main reason for your opinion?

Let's break down your comments, shall we?

Deontay Wilder had a proven track-record for knocking out larger foes, whereas Sonny Liston didn’t.

The 1963 iteration of Sonny Liston was forced to go the distance eleven times within thirty-six bouts, losing one of them.

The average weight of the opponents that went the distance in all eleven bouts was merely 194lbs, which is only 3lbs or 4lbs heavier than what modern day light heavyweights rehydrate to (i.e. Isaac Chilemba, Eleider Alvarez, Sergey Kovalev, Adonis Stevenson, Tony Bellew, Chad Dawson, Glen Johnson etc.).

So you’re comparing a prolific puncher, such as Deontay Wilder, that has proven himself capable of knocking out 245lb-ers, to a man accustomed to facing much smaller foes (i.e. average weight of Liston’s first 36 opponents [up to 1963] was only 196lbs).

[Tony1244]

Still waiting on EO to list Louis' best opponents.

He won't; because it blows his theory out of the water.

Instead of being off-topic, get to the point.

Criticise me as much as you want, but at least I’m talking about Sonny Liston, which is the topic of this thread.

Whereas Joe Louis isn’t.

Then answer the question in the "Do we need a Super HW division" thread. If you don't, I'm going to have to do it for you.

[Enlightened-One]

Instead of being off-topic, get to the point.

Criticise me as much as you want, but at least I’m talking about Sonny Liston, which is the topic of this thread.

Whereas Joe Louis isn’t.

Then answer the question in the "Do we need a Super HW division" thread. If you don't, I'm going to have to do it for you.

So you flatly-refuse to answer any simple questions I pose?

You can’t “blow a theory out of water” if you aren’t brave enough to provide a counter argument.

[Enlightened-One]

As far back as I can remember, I've been reading posts on here from guys who had Liston stopping Tyson, Foreman, Holyfield, Lewis, Frazier, the Klitschko's, one guy even claimed that prime Liston would stop Clay ! This is a guy who's biggest wins came against Patterson and Zora Folley. Off hand I can't think of too many fighters in the history of boxing who accomplished less but are praised more than Sonny Liston.

That's a fantastic post! I completely agree!

[Tony1244]

Then answer the question in the "Do we need a Super HW division" thread. If you don't, I'm going to have to do it for you.

So you flatly-refuse to answer any simple questions I pose?

You can’t “blow a theory out of water” if you aren’t brave enough to provide a counter argument.

Your question was a 6th grade homework assignment. You asked me to list fighters Liston fought over 230 LBS. My sister could answer that, and she's never heard of Sonny Liston.

[Enlightened-One]

So you flatly-refuse to answer any simple questions I pose?

You can’t “blow a theory out of water” if you aren’t brave enough to provide a counter argument.

Your question was a 6th grade homework assignment. You asked me to list fighters Liston fought over 230 LBS. My sister could answer that, and she's never heard of Sonny Liston.

You still haven't answered my question. I don't mind but it was only a simple one that would require a few seconds' worth of research.

Anyway, please quote this so-called "question" I posed. I'm 100% confident I never even mentioned 230lbs. And I've only ever been discussing the 1963 iteration of Sonny Liston.

If your sister is so knowledgeable, perhaps you can get her to teach you how to read?

[Tony1244]

Your question was a 6th grade homework assignment. You asked me to list fighters Liston fought over 230 LBS. My sister could answer that, and she's never heard of Sonny Liston.

You still haven't answered my question. I don't mind but it was only a simple one that would require a few seconds' worth of research.

Anyway, please quote this so-called "question" I posed. I'm 100% confident I never even mentioned 230lbs. And I've only ever been discussing the 1963 iteration of Sonny Liston.

If your sister is so knowledgeable, perhaps you can get her to teach you how to read?

Oh, petty insults merely prove my superiority. I think I've read that somewhere.

Yeah, I'm going to read 800 of your posts to find the question. Not so much.

Why don't you NOW ask me 1 question, and I'll ask you 1 question, and we'll both answer them. Are you up for that?

[Enlightened-One]

You still haven't answered my question. I don't mind but it was only a simple one that would require a few seconds' worth of research.

Anyway, please quote this so-called "question" I posed. I'm 100% confident I never even mentioned 230lbs. And I've only ever been discussing the 1963 iteration of Sonny Liston.

If your sister is so knowledgeable, perhaps you can get her to teach you how to read?

Oh, petty insults merely prove my superiority. I think I've read that somewhere.

Yeah, I'm going to read 800 of your posts to find the question. Not so much.

Why don't you NOW ask me 1 question, and I'll ask you 1 question, and we'll both answer them. Are you up for that?

No, I’m not up for that.

You’ve never answered any of my questions and you consistently lie about my claims.

And when I expose your lies, instead of defending your misrepresentation of my thoughts, you demand that we move on and discuss something else.

It’s clear you can’t answer any of my questions Tony, because if you could, you would have done so by now.

[Tony1244]

Oh, petty insults merely prove my superiority. I think I've read that somewhere.

Yeah, I'm going to read 800 of your posts to find the question. Not so much.

Why don't you NOW ask me 1 question, and I'll ask you 1 question, and we'll both answer them. Are you up for that?

No, I’m not up for that.

You’ve never answered any of my questions and you consistently lie about my claims.

And when I expose your lies, instead of defending your misrepresentation of my thoughts, you demand that we move on and discuss something else.

It’s clear you can’t answer any of my questions Tony, because if you could, you would have done so by now.

No problem. I also avoid things when I know I'm going to lose.

[Enlightened-One]

I avoid things when I know I'm going to lose.

At least there’s one thing we agree on.

You keep avoiding answering any of my questions.

You can choose to return fire if you really want to, but you can’t say I haven’t addressed each point you previously raised.

I simply refuse to keep asking simple questions that you’ll always choose to ignore.

[Tony1244]

I avoid things when I know I'm going to lose.

At least there’s one thing we agree on.

You keep avoiding answering any of my questions.

You can choose to return fire if you really want to, but you can’t say I haven’t addressed each point you previously raised.

I simply refuse to keep asking simple questions that you’ll always choose to ignore.

Another poster with NPD. This may devastate you but I don't read everything you write. I don't find you very interesting. I didn't even know you existed until relatively recently.

[Enlightened-One]

At least there’s one thing we agree on.

You keep avoiding answering any of my questions.

You can choose to return fire if you really want to, but you can’t say I haven’t addressed each point you previously raised.

I simply refuse to keep asking simple questions that you’ll always choose to ignore.

Another poster with NPD. This may devastate you but I don't read everything you write. I don't find you very interesting. I didn't even know you existed until relatively recently.

Employing avoidance tactics. Good for you kid!

Let’s move on and ignore each other from now on.

[oogiebe]

Another classic thread.

[Tony1244]

Another poster with NPD. This may devastate you but I don't read everything you write. I don't find you very interesting. I didn't even know you existed until relatively recently.

Employing avoidance tactics. Good for you kid!

Let’s move on and ignore each other from now on.

Avoidance?

"No, I’m not up for that." EO"

[oogiebe]

Employing avoidance tactics. Good for you kid!

Let’s move on and ignore each other from now on.

Avoidance?

"No, I’m not up for that." EO"

The lad is completely off his rocker.

[Tony1244]

Avoidance?

"No, I’m not up for that." EO"

The lad is completely off his rocker.

"He's paddling with one oar." Gorilla Monsoon

[Ambling Alp II]

Is he for real, or just a troll? Have not read many of his other posts.
Sonny Liston was not the biggest puncher? Well he could certainly punch. To answer one of his questions, yes I think he would be fury. Yes, quite easily.
Anyway, it's my theory that that there are ideal sizes. For a heavyweight, depending on his height and frame, 200-225 is ideal. When you get much bigger than that, you usually lose stamina and speed that outweigh the advantages you might get.

There is a reason that 300 pound plus guys don't play qb or wide receiver in the NFL. Neither do 150 pound guys. There is an ideal.
If you much below that , you usually are going to have disadvantages that are difficult to overcome.
So obviously Roberto Duran whom he brought up would not have been able to compete with a decent heavyweight.

There will be rare exceptions. There conceivably could be a really big guy in the 240s or an undersized guy in the 180s or 190s who can do it. However, we should judge fighters by what they can do, not by the frikkin scale.

At a certain, point people have to actually watch the fights.

[Seamus]

Too busy this morning so I'll repost what I wrote in Feb

Ever since I came on here, I've been hearing how a fit 200 lb boxer could clean out the lard asses and uncoordinated giants of the heavyweight division. But now it's 2020 and we're still waiting for Godot.

[Tony1244]

To get back on topic, Liston vs Fury may be very close. I could see them taking the other guy's shot and many close rounds. Maybe that's a bit of a cop out.

I think Liston may KO AJ, the more I think about it. AJ couldn't even take a punch from Ruiz. I know many credit Ruiz for being 280 in lieu of 210-220, but I'm not one of those people. Perhaps there are obesity worshippers.

Wilder? Liston would win every round until...... . Wilder could win w/ 1 punch, but I'd favor Liston.

Liston beats the rest of the top 10 easily.

[Tony1244]

Is he for real, or just a troll? Have not read many of his other posts.
Sonny Liston was not the biggest puncher? Well he could certainly punch. To answer one of his questions, yes I think he would be fury. Yes, quite easily.
Anyway, it's my theory that that there are ideal sizes. For a heavyweight, depending on his height and frame, 200-225 is ideal. When you get much bigger than that, you usually lose stamina and speed that outweigh the advantages you might get.

There is a reason that 300 pound plus guys don't play qb or wide receiver in the NFL. Neither do 150 pound guys. There is an ideal.
If you much below that , you usually are going to have disadvantages that are difficult to overcome.
So obviously Roberto Duran whom he brought up would not have been able to compete with a decent heavyweight.

There will be rare exceptions. There conceivably could be a really big guy in the 240s or an undersized guy in the 180s or 190s who can do it. However, we should judge fighters by what they can do, not by the frikkin scale.

At a certain, point people have to actually watch the fights.

Why watch the fights when you have a tape measure and scale?

A resume tells a lot, but not everything. Sometimes you have to watch things like jabs. Liston's jab and set up vs Povetkin's or Pulev's? - Again.

[oogiebe]

Is he for real, or just a troll? Have not read many of his other posts.
Sonny Liston was not the biggest puncher? Well he could certainly punch. To answer one of his questions, yes I think he would be fury. Yes, quite easily.
Anyway, it's my theory that that there are ideal sizes. For a heavyweight, depending on his height and frame, 200-225 is ideal. When you get much bigger than that, you usually lose stamina and speed that outweigh the advantages you might get.

There is a reason that 300 pound plus guys don't play qb or wide receiver in the NFL. Neither do 150 pound guys. There is an ideal.
If you much below that , you usually are going to have disadvantages that are difficult to overcome.
So obviously Roberto Duran whom he brought up would not have been able to compete with a decent heavyweight.

There will be rare exceptions. There conceivably could be a really big guy in the 240s or an undersized guy in the 180s or 190s who can do it. However, we should judge fighters by what they can do, not by the frikkin scale.

At a certain, point people have to actually watch the fights.

I think he's serious and not a troll by definition. He's just a troubled person.

[Thomastearns]

As far back as I can remember, I've been reading posts on here from guys who had Liston stopping Tyson, Foreman, Holyfield, Lewis, Frazier, the Klitschko's, one guy even claimed that prime Liston would stop Clay ! This is a guy who's biggest wins came against Patterson and Zora Folley. Off hand I can't think of too many fighters in the history of boxing who accomplished less but are praised more than Sonny Liston.

You have to examine everything in context - everything is a product of its time. It can't be any other way.

Simply going over records decades later can only tell you a small part of the story. Important, vital details have a tendency to vanish into the ether with the passage of time.

We all know how easy it is for heroes to later become villains, and villains to later become heroes. Especially in this sport.

Following the retirement of a great champion, the late 1950s heavyweight division was a little in the wilderness for a few years. Sure you had the Patterson v Johansson trilogy which captivated a nation. But always in the background stood the shadow of Sonny Liston.

Cus D'Amato could not hold him off forever, not when Floyd himself was tiring of accusations of cowardice. Something no one should ever accuse him of.

Their inevitable showdown had even Jack Kennedy taking an interest. The whole world saw what happened. Many were shocked.

The rematch removed any slight doubt about 'bad boy' Liston that may have remained. Boxing would never be the same again.

Sonny Liston's name would forever be associated with extreme pugilistic carnage.

Years later George Foreman would say that Liston was the only fighter to back him up in sparring, and nobody would doubt him.

Ironically, a similar thing happens with Mike Tyson, but those who followed boxing in the late 1980s watched in awe as Tyson dismantled his opponents and removed all doubts.