The final word on Ali/Liston 2 ??

[dalcumly]

During this lockdown period I've had a lot of time to research the life and career of Sonny Liston. Watching all the old fight films and reading all the books written, some I was reading for the second time.
For me the big mystery has always been what happened in the second fight with Ali.
Did he 'dive', was the 'punch' harder than we all thought?
I think the final answer rests within Nick Tosches book, and its the words of Liston himself. When I then looked at the fight having read the quote the answer is clear - to me at least.
Liston told a close friend some 4 years later in a quiet moment, that he was moving into Ali, a quick punch landed on the side of his head, he lost balance and basically stumbled onto all fours. At the point , for whatever reason, he simply decided 'he couldn't be bothered getting up ' .
As we all know Liston had been training up to peak fitness before the initial fight was postponed. Then he had to build up again, with the fight taking place miles from anywhere. I think Liston just got fed up with everything. Its highly likely that Liston lived day to day, spending money as he had it, and borrowing from managers/promoters against his next purse. He probably realised that at the end of the day there would not be a great deal of spare cash after the fight. In addition until the knockdown he hadn't landed a punch, with Ali being too quick.

[Onamastus]

The Tosches book while beautifully written is in many ways unreliable due to the credulity of the author. Liston was obviously knocked down fair and square. He was practically running at Ali when he got clipped. Being able to see a Big Cat bomb coming and bracing yourself for it doesn't mean a little sneak punch you don't see coming can't knock you over. Why he hammed it up afterwards we'll never know. Didn't seem like he wanted to be there. Maybe that second camp didn't go so well, and the rematch was giving him unpleasant flashbacks of the first fight, maybe there was something mob related. Who knows.

[Tony1244]

Liston's reaction after the punch was the worst acting I've ever seen. I think he knew he couldn't beat Ali, so why bother trying?

[gilgamesh]

How many times have people tried to have The Final Word on this fight, and here we are bringing it up again 55 years later.

The issue will never be laid to rest for the Boxing public at large because I guess some feel it taints Ali's entire legacy if he won one fight via dive for whatever reason, so people try to pretend it didn't happen perhaps. Or they try to think Liston was dignified a man to take a dive?

Not sure.

Not sure why Liston took a dive. There's so many theories. Which I've went into in detail the last time this was discussed, and would again if people don't know 'em, but surely they do by now.

Whether Liston was legitimately knocked down or not. He undoubtedly could've gotten up by the Count of 10, and simply chose not to.

Why that is. I couldn't tell you.

But it's one of the most blatantly phony "Let me try to get up....oh...I can't, I'm gonna fall back over" sequences I've ever seen.

Like I've said, the question isn't IF Liston took a dive. He did. No 2 ways about it.

The question is Why?

And that's an answer we'll never have.

It's Boxing's "Who shot Kennedy?"

[Tony1244]

They're kind of the same.

Oswald shot JFK. But why? He was either a pro Cuban Communist, or pretending to be and working for the CIA, depending on who you ask.

Liston took a dive. But why? I think just like a chess master knows when he can't win, a boxer sometimes knows that also.
It was a bad actor's way of quitting. Was he threatened? Was he paid?

[dalcumly]

I think all your comments are relevant. Totally agree that he could've got up and I think we all agree that it was genuine knockdown from the point of view that he was walking onto the punch and if your look his left foot was off the ground when it landed ( its a bit like a karate 'sweep' ,just as the attacker moves in ).
I do believe that if it was a 'paid' dive something relatively concrete would have appeared over time. I really do think it was a case of 'why bother'.

[Seamus]

My guess is 1.Liston knew he'd lose bad 2.Liston then took a dive 3. Seconds later he changed his mind, but it was too late

[Tony1244]

I think all your comments are relevant. Totally agree that he could've got up and I think we all agree that it was genuine knockdown from the point of view that he was walking onto the punch and if your look his left foot was off the ground when it landed ( its a bit like a karate 'sweep' ,just as the attacker moves in ).
I do believe that if it was a 'paid' dive something relatively concrete would have appeared over time. I really do think it was a case of 'why bother'.

I do believe it was a case of why bother. But if he "found" an envelope with cash, who would talk?

[margaret thatcher]

Ali was just vastly superior to Liston and took Sonny's soul

[Tevfik1907]

Ali takes his opponent's soul. That's why he was the greatest.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

A legit punch landed. He got up before the referee counted to 10. The fight did continue until the referee stopped it after talking to press row

If he was taking a dive why did he get up and continue fighting?

[dalcumly]

I think he continued briefly because he began to realise how embarrassing it was looking .

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

It wasnt briefly though. He got up before 10. He started fighting. It was only brief because jersey joe stopped it out of nowhere

[dalcumly]

Examination of the film by the Maine Boxing Commission established Liston was down for 17 seconds.

[dalcumly]

I made a mistake at the outset. It was Paul Gallenders book page 214 which reports Mark Krams interviews with Liston long after the fight. Liston said , "There weren't no fix up in Maine. That phantom punch, it stun, that's all.I coulda' got up.I just didn't want to. That guy 'Ali' was crazy, I didn't want nuthin' to do with him. And the Muslims were coming up. Who needed that ? So I went down , I wasn't hit "

[wouter]

I made a mistake at the outset. It was Paul Gallenders book page 214 which reports Mark Krams interviews with Liston long after the fight. Liston said , "There weren't no fix up in Maine. That phantom punch, it stun, that's all.I coulda' got up.I just didn't want to. That guy 'Ali' was crazy, I didn't want nuthin' to do with him. And the Muslims were coming up. Who needed that ? So I went down , I wasn't hit "

It's well known that Gallender is on a first name basis with Sonny's ghost.

[Ambling Alp II]

It wasnt briefly though. He got up before 10. He started fighting. It was only brief because jersey joe stopped it out of nowhere

I believe the time keeper had counted 10. Actually, Walcott stopped the fight because of Nat Fleischer who told him how long Liston had been down. He should not have listened to Fleischer who was there in any official capacity.
One more thing that indicates that Liston threw the fight is the fact that he didn't file a protest because of Walcott's gross mishandling of the situation.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Im pleading ignorance here... did protests get filed back then?

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Examination of the film by the Maine Boxing Commission established Liston was down for 17 seconds.

Irrelevant. Just like it is irrelevant douglas was down more than 10 or fury. You go by the referees count. That is the rule. He was up

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

My thoughts are a legitimate good punch landed. Liston went down. Walcott screwed everything up which isnt really debatable.

Liston later gave excuses as he was embarrassed by ali again

I dont think its implausible he rolled over after a knockdown considering he quit in their first fight. But nobody likes to address that he did get up before the ref counted him out and he was fighting when Walcott stepped back in

[BoxBuzz]

Liston was hit he went down, it's clear to see. He did not "take a dive" and was back to fighting. He would have been beaten and he knew it. The mob, the nations of Islam and all that drama nonsense would not phase the fighters, but it's lovely gossip for the fans. The bigger issue was Liston's own personal demons.

This was first and formost Joe Walcott'[s mess. And it remains his responsibility. The outcome was not going to change. Liston was a bit listless, and probably depressed, and he had a right to be. He was headed for a hyding and he seemed to sense the hopelessness.

But it has proved endlessly entertaining for fans who desperately love to bring their imaginations to the arena.

And why not, it's why we all show up to the fights......to see what actually happens, and then to spin yarns about "what we saw".

[dalcumly]

Boxbuzz . well said.
Another comment I'd make is that Walcott didn't take up any count as far as I can recall. It thinks its always been the case that you can't get KO'ed until the referee says ten. If for example Walcott had wandered over to Fleischer and anybody else and Liston was only then getting up he still couldn't be counted out because Walcott hadn't completed any count !!!
Anyway, up until the Clay/Ali fights I still think Liston is up there with the top 5 heavyweights of all time.