WHICH FOES WOULD BE BEST TO LOCK UP HOF SPOT FOR CALZAGHE?

shoutout · Post by **shoutout** » 21 Jun 2006, 17:40

the response to the original poll has been great!! and since most agree joe needs at least one more significant win to lock up a spot in HOF, what 1 or 2 foes would best achieve that goal for joe?

IMO a win over any ONE of the following would secure HOF berth for JC:

1. tomasz adamek=seems best at 175 with b-hop retiring
2. winky wright=would help joe's rep more at catchweight of 164, than if winky came up to 168
3. bernard hopkins (especially at 175)=seems to be unlikely with retirement
4. jermain taylor=only if joe went to 160 & beat current titlist...if JT had to move up a win for joe wouldnt mean as much. taylor at 168 would be in 2nd group

IMO it would take a win over TWO of these guys to get him in:

1. mikael kessler=only if he beats limited beyer
2. glen johnson=stock dropped when tarver got dominated
3. clinton woods=good fighter, but international win means more for HOF
4. zsolt erdei=soft schedule is what perpetuates wbo's 2nd-class rep
5. antonio tarver=only if tarver gets a decent win BEFORE he fights joe

i have purposely left out beyer, mundine, RJJ, because IMO they are another level below kessler, etc.

which fighters do YOU think would most likely secure JC's spot in HOF?

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 21 Jun 2006, 17:42

He needs to beat Kessler first, otherwise he will have achieved very little at 168. Then he needs to beat a titleholder at 175.

I don't think there is any 1-fight option though - the only possible one, Tarver, has just fallen from grace. Adamek hasn't achieve enough himself.

I disagree on Wright, Hopkins and Taylor; it wouldn't do Joe much good to beat up smaller men.

shoutout · Post by **shoutout** » 21 Jun 2006, 17:45

pundit wrote:He needs to beat Kessler first, otherwise he will have achieved very little at 168. Then he needs to beat a titleholder at 175.

I disagree on Wright, Hopkins and Taylor; it wouldn't do Joe much good to beat up smaller men.

i knew i could count on the kessler promo agent for that, but many of the rest of us are realistic enuf to know that altho kessler MAY be really good, he has done little so far to prove it!! that is why he is not that widely known!!

addressing your SECOND POINT...that's why i said it would help joe ALOT MORE if he came down in weight to fight better known, more accomplished wright & taylor...b-hop as #1 LH is no longer smaller, but still unlikely to un-retire!!

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:00

1) Hopkins
2) O Neil Bell - its seems to be "fashionable" to jump two weight devisions.
3) Taylor

Rest along way off - would have to rely on beating someone before Joe.

Yes Kessler is good, but has done little more than left hook lacy.

The winner of a potential Adameck vs Erdei fight would stand Joe in good stead.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:01

shoutout2u wrote: i knew i could count on the kessler promo agent for that, but many of the rest of us are realistic enuf to know that altho kessler MAY be really good, he has done little so far to prove it!! that is why he is not that widely known!!

This is not realistic but mistaken - Kessler has beaten 168 #3 Tony Mundine very convincingly in Mundine's backyard; and he will now take on #4 and WBC titleholder Markus Beyer. Arguably this is more than JC has done at 168 in 10 years. I don't think after Kessler-Beyer Calzaghe can avoid Kessler AND maintain a HOF candidacy - it would look too obviously like having avoided the obvious and stiffest challenge.

addressing your SECOND POINT...that's why i said it would help joe ALOT MORE if he came down in weight to fight better known, more accomplished wright & taylor...b-hop as #1 LH is no longer smaller, but still unlikely to un-retire!!

Agreed, but Joe won't go down, and at 168 these guys do nothing for Joe. Not in one, two, or three fights - nothing.

Cheers,
P

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:04

I agree with Pundit that if Kessler fights Beyer then yes, Joe should go for him (providing he wins) and it would be far more important than any move up.

BUT, he HAS to fight Beyer first, Beyer postponing and people claiming he is scared is not good enough... He's got to fight and beat him, somehow I still don't think that fight will happen.

Won't the WBC champion have to face the dangerous Andrade in a certain amount of days. That would be ideal the Kessler/Beyer vs Andrade winner vs Joe.... Fan bloody tastic. Andrade is dangerous.

Thats is the other avenue for Joe (and probably the most viable) forget about his era (Ottke, Hopkins, Tarver, Wright, Beyer) and look "undisputed" #1 world class prospect of the next generation - look at the likes of Kessler, Andrade and Chad Dawson (Light Heavyweight) as opposed to his aging generation.

Thats how Lewis achieve Hof status, it wasn't his wins over Holyfield and Tyson alone, but his wins over the "next generation" "champions to be" - Rahman, Tua, Grant, Briggs, Golota, and Klitchsko. Corrie Sanders helped him out a little by whooping Wlad, who whooped Byrd.

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:13

Agreed, but Joe won't go down, and at 168 these guys do nothing for Joe. Not in one, two, or three fights - nothing.

It worked out great for Hopkins, providing Taylor gets in one fight at 168 first. Also, Taylor is bigger than Joe, he could be fighting at 168 anyway. 2'' height advantage , 3'' reach advantage & comes to fight at 170lbs+

vargas · Post by **vargas** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:26

I would say that if he beats Kessler to prove himself #1 at 168, then moves up and beats the #1 at 175 he'll be well on his way to HOF status. After this he could then pick and choose the best fights for his legacy, perhaps even making a move up to Cruiserweight.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:26

lvlarc_uk wrote:

Agreed, but Joe won't go down, and at 168 these guys do nothing for Joe. Not in one, two, or three fights - nothing.

It worked out great for Hopkins, providing Taylor gets in one fight at 168 first. Also, Taylor is bigger than Joe, he could be fighting at 168 anyway. 6'1 , 3'' reach advantage & comes to fight at 170lbs+

Badly flawed and delusory comparison. BHops reputation is not based on beating DLH. He beat scores of top-notch legit 160 contenders, including Glen Johnson, Keith Homes, Antwun Echols, Howard Eastman (PLUS he fought RJJ at 160, a fight that he narrowly lost). Also Tito was a 160 beltholder when he fought Hopkins. Moreoever, Hopkins unified all major belts at 160 - a quest Calzaghe has only started, and where he seems to be shying away from the second step. Finally, there has never been an opponent Hopkins avoided or was suspected of having avoided - while Calzaghe's career is littered with this.

Taylor at 168 will do nothing for Calzaghe - except for those who suscribe anyway to whatever Calzaghe does.

P

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:29

How is that a "flawed" comparison?

I said.

It worked out great for Hopkins, providing Taylor gets in one fight at 168 first.

Thats's exactly what Trinidad did, and it turned out to be his (Hopkins) biggest win. Take your blinkers off and start reading properly

How can you say a win over P4P'r Taylor would be worth "nothing"

You are the delusional one buddy.

Moreoever, Hopkins unified all major belts at 160 - a quest Calzaghe has only started

Also took him 13 years to do so. Calzaghe is in his 12th year as pro. Can't argue with FACTS.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:33

lvlarc_uk wrote:How is that a "flawed" comparison?

I said.

It worked out great for Hopkins, providing Taylor gets in one fight at 168 first.
Thats's exactly what Trinidad did, and it turned out to be his biggest win. Take your blinkers off and start reading properly

Tito won a middlweight belt with this fight, KOing the fighter who at the time was widely regarded Hopkins' main competitor at 160.

So let's do the comparison propely: if Taylor beats Kessler at 168, and then takes on Calzaghe, and Calzaghe wins this fight in similar fashion as Hopkins beat Tito..... OK, in this case beating Taylor will do something for Joe's HOF status.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:37

lvlarc_uk wrote:Also took him 13 years to do so. Calzaghe is in his 12th year as pro. Can't argue with FACTS.

Yep, but Hopkins wasn't considered a future HOFer before he unified the division.

It will be the same with Calzaghe.

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:38

Then why do you keep going on and on and on and on?

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:39

lvlarc_uk wrote:Then why do you keep going on and on and on and on?

?

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:40

So you went from...

Badly flawed and delusory comparison

to

OK, in this case beating Taylor will do something for Joe's HOF status

Consistent as ever

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:43

lvlarc_uk wrote:So you went from...

Badly flawed and delusory comparison
to

OK, in this case beating Taylor will do something for Joe's HOF status
Consistent as ever

I believe you can do better than that....

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:43

Sorry lvlarc, I'm with Pundit on that one.

People were saying for years that Joppy was #2 Middleweight and some gave him a chance at beating Tito.

Joppy just wasn't any other fight, he was Hopkins' main rival -most saw him as better than Holmes.

So while in some peoples view he had the "bulked up Welter" persona, others saw Tito as the clear #2 Middleweight and only threat to Hopkins with that win.

I'm not convinced Tito would have been the betting favourite had he not destroyed Joppy.

I agree that I would like to see Taylor (or even Abraham/Sturm) win a world title at Super Middleweight before fighting Joe. Otherwise we have a Vuyani Bungu vs Naz style fight potentially.

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:45

That's why I said providing Taylor gets a fight in at 168 first. Would you agree that Calzaghe beating Taylor at 168 would enhance his legacy?

You seem to be ignoring the strange fact that Taylor is bigger than Joe anyhow.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:51

lvlarc_uk wrote:That's why I said providing Taylor gets a fight in at 168 first.

Sorry, but did you read stujones post properly?

Any fight for Taylor at 168 wouldn't do. Taylor would have to dethrone Kessler as Calzaghe's main rival first, just as Tito dethroned Joppy as Hopkins main rival.

If Taylor would do this, you don't have an argument even with me - then beating Taylor would do a heck of a lot for Calzaghe. But only then. With nothing like this is in the cards, I'd tend to discount this case as irrelevant at this juncture.

The "natural bigger" thing says rather little imo. Colojanni was naturally much bigger (at least as you define it - height and reach) than Beyer. Did Beyer gain props for beating this "naturally bigger" man? Hmmmm......

Fact: Taylor is a 160, Calzaghe a 168 fighter.

Cheers, P

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 21 Jun 2006, 19:03

It can be argued that Jermain has the best resumee within last 2 years than any other fighter.

Fighters go for smaller fighters to enhance their legacy all the time. Most recently Oscar > PBF.

But in this case Taylor could make 168 VERY comfortably. He was 170 against Wright.

In contrast, the "natural bigger" thing says rather little. Colojanni was naturally much bigger (at least in the way you define it - height and reach) than Beyer. Did Beyer gain props from beating this "naturally bigger" man? Hmmmm......

Apples with oranges & all that....you are missing something, Taylor is a P4P'r

One of the best fighters in the WORLD today, Who is Colojanni, ah right he's a guy with 2 KO's, yet still gave Beyer trouble

If Taylor was to move up to 168, which he could do comfortably, and fight ANY top 10 fighter, then a fight with Joe would be big, as he already has the talent to hang with the best.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 21 Jun 2006, 19:06

How is Taylor bigger? Taller yes but not a bigger man he is a middleweight. Calzaghe takes off a lot of weight to get to 168, I bet he's in or close to the 180's by fight time much like Taylor is 170+ for Middleweight fights.

Taylor is taller yes but saying a career Middleweight is bigger than a career Supermiddlweight is ridiculous.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 21 Jun 2006, 19:13

pundit wrote:He needs to beat Kessler first, otherwise he will have achieved very little at 168. Then he needs to beat a titleholder at 175.

I don't think there is any 1-fight option though - the only possible one, Tarver, has just fallen from grace. Adamek hasn't achieve enough himself.

I disagree on Wright, Hopkins and Taylor; it wouldn't do Joe much good to beat up smaller men.

Achieved little!

Kessler hasn't been champ for even 2 years and only has had 2 defences! Mundine was whooped by Siaca who has losses to Mitchell who Calzaghe stopped.

I get the feeling Calzaghe's experiance and talent will be too much for Kessler. Can Kessler fight to his pace for 12 whole rounds? Hell naw.

As for Tito anyone with good skill raped him!

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 21 Jun 2006, 19:15

Max Molyneux wrote:I get the feeling Calzaghe's experiance and talent will be too much for Kessler.

What a shame that we're unlikley to ever find out - even though, I never give up hope.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 21 Jun 2006, 19:24

Don't need to find out. 8)

I believed Calzaghe could do it before Lacy and he did!

Only the prime talented Robin Reid has ever troubled him. 8)

Suprising as it sounds but if Reid had beaten Lacy and fought Calzaghe, I would of supported Reid. Shame he's past it.

Oh yeah read Joe admits to being troubled by counter punchers.

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 21 Jun 2006, 19:25

nickd wrote:How is Taylor bigger? Taller yes but not a bigger man he is a middleweight. Calzaghe takes off a lot of weight to get to 168, I bet he's in or close to the 180's by fight time much like Taylor is 170+ for Middleweight fights.

Taylor is taller yes but saying a career Middleweight is bigger than a career Supermiddlweight is ridiculous.

It's fair to say Taylor is a very big Middleweight, he has the natural frame to cope with 168 very comfortably, geez Hopkins with similar frame managed 175lbs and looked in GREAT shape. In a few years Taylor will most likely outgrow Middleweight forcing him to move up.

WHICH FOES WOULD BE BEST TO LOCK UP HOF SPOT FOR CALZAGHE?

WHICH FOES WOULD BE BEST TO LOCK UP HOF SPOT FOR CALZAGHE?

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Re: WHICH FOES WOULD BE BEST TO LOCK UP HOF SPOT FOR CALZAGH

Re: WHICH FOES WOULD BE BEST TO LOCK UP HOF SPOT FOR CALZAGH

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Re: WHICH FOES WOULD BE BEST TO LOCK UP HOF SPOT FOR CALZAGH

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