I've always considered hand speed to be a tremdous gift for a fighter. I think an average or even poor fighter can over achieve if they have good hand speed. It is also really very intimidating to see an opponent with ultra fast hands...
The thing is, how much faster is one guy to the next? When you consider that the punches basically travel the length of an arm (okay there's a bit more to it than that) the discrepancy in speed shouldn't be that much of a factor, should it???
If we imagine a jab... Two boxers with high guards have got to get their fist from just in front of their face/shoulder to the end of their arm... The difference in time taken must be very small even between one of the fastest and one of the slowest.
As you can tell I'm no expert at this and I am hoping soemone will explain away my faulty thinking...
Hand speed
Not boring at all, mate. i really appreciate your knowledge.Terence wrote:Ezzard, like most things it is relative.
On single shots hand speed can be negated by technique and a lot of guys punch 'fast' by throwing from the elbow or flicking with a shot. If you get no shoulder into it the shot will look blurring but the other guy can still be quickler to the punch. All he has to do is make sure his shots are thrown precisely and within good range, I've seen featherweights with a limited reach out-jab welterweights merely by timing the shot well and throwing with full shoulder extension. Also positioning of the guard can hinder or help, my pet hate is guys with decent speed who negate it by dangling the left, you have to bring it up, out and across and it does slow you down.
As for combos it is again, in my view only mind, a case of shot picking and precision. If a guy with pretty fast hands throws a left uppercut, right uppercut and right hook combo he'll get some drag no matter how fast he is. It is a case of making sure your last shot leaves you well balanced enough to get in your next one. If not you run the risk of touching a guy up.
People classed Joe Louis as slow of hand and foot but he could get within range and let loose 3-4-5 shots combos on faster guys. Look at the Conn finish and ask "which is the lighter guy?!"
Forrest got it right, jab kills speed. I trained one kid who was quicksilver and flurried another bigger, slower kid to death; I just got the other kid jabbing correctly and throwing a right hand left hook and, although slower, he soon broke the other kids speed with correct, well-placed punching.
Sorry if that was a bit boring and did not answer your query.
For me Khan is fast-handed but is not sitting on his shots, his reflexes are ripe now but one day he may have to block right hands and will he do it with that low-left? No.
Blinding handspeed does seem unnevre opponents. It makes them unsure as they are expecting to get punished for any mistakes. I just thought that beating soemone to the punch can't just be about hand speed. Ali has a faster jab than Liston but in a race over a matter of inches should it really make that much difference that Ali's jab almost completely dominates Liston's. Okay there's a lot more to it than just who's got the fastest jab but hopefully you see what I'm gettign at...
This is how I see it. It's as if Ali is jabbing between heartbeats. Throwing the punch just when it's not expected, and then getting it off a split second before he anticipates one coming his own way. the spped helps, it means an awful lot and maybe gives him that fraction of a second of extra time to think.Terence wrote: Ali is so fast it was untrue but if you do get a faster guy often you can out-jab him by timing his jab.
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dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
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Joe Louis slow of hand???Terence wrote:Ezzard, like most things it is relative.
On single shots hand speed can be negated by technique and a lot of guys punch 'fast' by throwing from the elbow or flicking with a shot. If you get no shoulder into it the shot will look blurring but the other guy can still be quickler to the punch. All he has to do is make sure his shots are thrown precisely and within good range, I've seen featherweights with a limited reach out-jab welterweights merely by timing the shot well and throwing with full shoulder extension. Also positioning of the guard can hinder or help, my pet hate is guys with decent speed who negate it by dangling the left, you have to bring it up, out and across and it does slow you down.
As for combos it is again, in my view only mind, a case of shot picking and precision. If a guy with pretty fast hands throws a left uppercut, right uppercut and right hook combo he'll get some drag no matter how fast he is. It is a case of making sure your last shot leaves you well balanced enough to get in your next one. If not you run the risk of touching a guy up.
People classed Joe Louis as slow of hand and foot but he could get within range and let loose 3-4-5 shots combos on faster guys. Look at the Conn finish and ask "which is the lighter guy?!"
Forrest got it right, jab kills speed. I trained one kid who was quicksilver and flurried another bigger, slower kid to death; I just got the other kid jabbing correctly and throwing a right hand left hook and, although slower, he soon broke the other kids speed with correct, well-placed punching.
Sorry if that was a bit boring and did not answer your query.
For me Khan is fast-handed but is not sitting on his shots, his reflexes are ripe now but one day he may have to block right hands and will he do it with that low-left? No.
Good point. Tyson was able to combine speed and power with devastating results also. Many amateurs have been able to use speed and flashy combinations to be very succesful-in amateur boxing. To make it in the pros it takes more than that. Good pros know how to negate the speed of a fighter who relys completely on it. Cutting off the ring , body puching, head movement, timing etc. In the pro game a fighter is eventualy gonna have to set himself and punch. Make his opponent respect him .Decagon wrote:Some fighters use their speed well, and some don't. Hector Camacho was maybe as fast as any fighter ever, but he just slapped a little bit. Shane Mosley, on the other hand, used really fast flurries to confuse his opponents and set up BAM!~ power shots. Ray Leonard used his speed well; so did Ali.
You are confusing strength and power.Decagon wrote:Tyson's power is SOOO overrated. It was his ability to hit people in the chin when they weren't expecting it that won him so many fights. Try hitting the heavy bag with your fastest power shot. Then hit it with a slow bomb. Watch the difference in how far it moves. Tyson did exactly what you said - mixed speed and power. He didn't have to slow down his punches to make them as hard as possible.
Compare Tyson with George Foreman. Foreman's often berated as having poor handspeed, but that's only when he was landing his biggest punches. Look at the way he threw quick combinations in the early rounds against Ron Lyle. Those combos didn't have the power that Foreman was famous for. Tyson clearly had that advanage over Foreman, and I'd definitely go against conventional wisdom, and say that Tyson was a better puncher than Foreman. He wasn't more powerful, but he was better.
There is a clear difference.
Speed has alot to do with punching power, and I'm not talking about not seeing the punches coming.
...samuel...alas, i admit i do go out of my way every chance i get to knock marciano. just the other rainy day i couldn't get a taxi (we use those in the larger cities) so i had to walk 30 blocks to point out to someone that marciano was warned something like five times in seven rounds (or maybe the other way around) by the referee for fouling against lastarza in their second fight (the one marciano won) ..but no points/rounds were taken away.
my reasons for my low opinion of marciano ....as a fighter.... are not known only to me....i've expressed them often on this forum.
..as for tantum's comments.....
my reasons for my low opinion of marciano ....as a fighter.... are not known only to me....i've expressed them often on this forum.
..as for tantum's comments.....