Is it time for super heavyweight division?

[Tony1244]

Wondering if EO is José Sulaimán Jr. phishing for $$Fees$$.

[Enlightened-One]

Wondering if EO is José Sulaimán Jr. phishing for $$Fees$$.

Have I said anything particularly unacceptable or unreasonable in this thread?

[gilgamesh]

Wondering if EO is José Sulaimán Jr. phishing for $$Fees$$.

Have I said anything particularly unacceptable or unreasonable in this thread?

Yes. You said that eventually there should be a new weight class added around Heavyweight. Which means you have no respect for the richest tradition in Sports.

[Tony1244]

MR. Alphabet Soup,

Buster Mathis and Valuev should have been Super Heavyweight Champion and then you could make even more money off stupid people.

"...And I’m sure a lot of people will cite the names of several modern-day small men that achieved great things against big heavyweights, such as Wilder, Holyfield, Toney, Jones Jr., Byrd & Haye, but they are definitely the exceptions that almost certainly fails to disprove the general rule, which is that size really does matter… and there’s a reason why weight classes exist!....""" EO

That is a hell of a lot of exceptions! And you didn't even name them all!

[Paci]

I do love seeing a 215 pounder against a 260 pound-guy. Even playing field bs shouldn't apply to the heavyweights.

The abc-trinkets are good for making more money and selling fights.

[oogiebe]

Have I said anything particularly unacceptable or unreasonable in this thread?

Yes. You said that eventually there should be a new weight class added around Heavyweight. Which means you have no respect for the richest tradition in Sports.

He's not a fan.

[Tony1244]

I do love seeing a 215 pounder against a 260 pound-guy. Even playing field bs shouldn't apply to the heavyweights.

The abc-trinkets are good for making more money and selling fights.

What EO does not understand, considering EO is not a fan, is in most cases the 260 pounder has no advantage.

On the contrary if one guy was 215 and the other guy 260, and that's all I knew about them, I'd favor the guy who was 215.

The 260 guy is likely to be either obese or a clumsy tall guy.

[Paci]

I do love seeing a 215 pounder against a 260 pound-guy. Even playing field bs shouldn't apply to the heavyweights.

The abc-trinkets are good for making more money and selling fights.

What EO does not understand, considering EO is not a fan, is in most cases the 260 pounder has no advantage.

On the contrary if one guy was 215 and the other guy 260, and that's all I knew about them, I'd favor the guy who was 215.

The 260 guy is likely to be either obese or a clumsy tall guy.

A slim, tall and strong guy around 220 pounds vs a 270 pound giant who is moves like a lightweight? Hmmm... sometimes it don't work out for the small guy on fight night.

Im not agreeing with EO, I do see his point. But making an 18th weight class ain't gonna solve any problems. Just making the real crazies around 210 to 230 thrown out of the mix.
I do love to see how a smaller guy outworks the large dude.
Like how Holyfield got robbed against Valuev... dear lord was one of the worst fights I have ever seen. And that is going by seeing many boring german fights from universium and their padding matchups.

[Tony1244]

What EO does not understand, considering EO is not a fan, is in most cases the 260 pounder has no advantage.

On the contrary if one guy was 215 and the other guy 260, and that's all I knew about them, I'd favor the guy who was 215.

The 260 guy is likely to be either obese or a clumsy tall guy.

A slim, tall and strong guy around 220 pounds vs a 270 pound giant who is moves like a lightweight? Hmmm... sometimes it don't work out for the small guy on fight night.

Im not agreeing with EO, I do see his point. But making an 18th weight class ain't gonna solve any problems. Just making the real crazies around 210 to 230 thrown out of the mix.
I do love to see how a smaller guy outworks the large dude.
Like how Holyfield got robbed against Valuev... dear lord was one of the worst fights I have ever seen. And that is going by seeing many boring german fights from universium and their padding matchups.

Yeah, if I saw 2 HWs making their debut on a card, (I'm making up names) Tim Reynolds 220 VS Bob Johnson 270, I would in no way favor Johnson if that was all I knew about them. It doesn't raise an eyebrow like seeing 120 VS 170, which is virtually unimaginable.

Now, as I've said in 50 years that may be different.

[oogiebe]

A slim, tall and strong guy around 220 pounds vs a 270 pound giant who is moves like a lightweight? Hmmm... sometimes it don't work out for the small guy on fight night.

Im not agreeing with EO, I do see his point. But making an 18th weight class ain't gonna solve any problems. Just making the real crazies around 210 to 230 thrown out of the mix.
I do love to see how a smaller guy outworks the large dude.
Like how Holyfield got robbed against Valuev... dear lord was one of the worst fights I have ever seen. And that is going by seeing many boring german fights from universium and their padding matchups.

Yeah, if I saw 2 HWs making their debut on a card, (I'm making up names) Tim Reynolds 220 VS Bob Johnson 270, I would in no way favor Johnson if that was all I knew about them. It doesn't raise an eyebrow like seeing 120 VS 170, which is virtually unimaginable.

Now, as I've said in 50 years that may be different.

Funny thing about all this is that many here favored undersized Usyk as the best heavy. At least before Fury drubbed Wilder. Seems no one is talking much about him lately.

[Paci]

A slim, tall and strong guy around 220 pounds vs a 270 pound giant who is moves like a lightweight? Hmmm... sometimes it don't work out for the small guy on fight night.

Im not agreeing with EO, I do see his point. But making an 18th weight class ain't gonna solve any problems. Just making the real crazies around 210 to 230 thrown out of the mix.
I do love to see how a smaller guy outworks the large dude.
Like how Holyfield got robbed against Valuev... dear lord was one of the worst fights I have ever seen. And that is going by seeing many boring german fights from universium and their padding matchups.

Yeah, if I saw 2 HWs making their debut on a card, (I'm making up names) Tim Reynolds 220 VS Bob Johnson 270, I would in no way favor Johnson if that was all I knew about them. It doesn't raise an eyebrow like seeing 120 VS 170, which is virtually unimaginable.

Now, as I've said in 50 years that may be different.

Dependens on their fitness coming into the ring rather then the weight in my head. And overall skillset and so on.

[Enlightened-One]

Have I said anything particularly unacceptable or unreasonable in this thread?

Yes. You said that eventually there should be a new weight class added around Heavyweight. Which means you have no respect for the richest tradition in Sports.

Do you agree that the size difference between 200lb-ers competing at cruiserweight and world-rated heavyweights will continue to grow over time?

[Enlightened-One]

"...And I’m sure a lot of people will cite the names of several modern-day small men that achieved great things against big heavyweights, such as Wilder, Holyfield, Toney, Jones Jr., Byrd & Haye, but they are definitely the exceptions that almost certainly fails to disprove the general rule, which is that size really does matter… and there’s a reason why weight classes exist!....""" EO

That is a hell of a lot of exceptions! And you didn't even name them all!

I named nearly all of them and the list of fighters I supplied was from the last thirty years. So that's quite a small list in the context of the sheer volume of big men that have competed over those three decades!

[Enlightened-One]

Funny thing about all this is that many here favored undersized Usyk as the best heavy.

I'd also favour Usyk against many of today’s big men. And I've already said so numerous times.

I previously favoured Holyfield against the biggest men of his own era.

We’re talking about typical cruiserweights versus typical heavyweights, where pugilistic talents were comparable, with the main differential being their physical dimensions.

Of course, there are always exceptions in our beloved sport (such as Mayweather, Pacquiao & Whitaker), whereby exquisite skills can overcome a size disadvantage, but they aren’t merely ordinary fighters, are they?

There are exceptions in almost every single aspect of our lives, but this doesn’t mean the general rules don’t exist!

[Enlightened-One]

Some interesting stats for those that claim that size doesn’t matter…

The following list represents the weights of the winners/champions of the world heavyweight title fights (including the WBA variants) that occurred within the last twenty years (i.e. since the 9th June 2000):

• WBA = 50 title fights; 2 winners weighing less than 215lbs; 3 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• WBC = 38 title fights; 2 winners weighing less than 215lbs; 4 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• IBF = 40 title fights; 5 winners weighing less than 215lbs; 5 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• WBO = 30 title fights; 0 winners weighing less than 215lbs; 1 winner weighing less than 220lbs

Here are the mathematical average weights for the winners/champions of all those title fights (rounded to the nearest pound):

• WBA = 247lbs
• WBC = 240lbs
• IBF = 242lbs
• WBO = 242lbs

Here are the champions (weighing less than 220lbs) that emerged victorious (or drew) in the title fights mentioned above:

• David Haye
• Roy Jones Jr
• Deontay Wilder
• Chris Byrd
• Sultan Ibragimov

David Haye and Deontay Wilder are the only fighters that successfully competed in world heavyweight title fights within the last decade weighing less than 225lbs.

If people are questioning the validity of these stats, I can easily provide the dates, names (of the winners) and weights for each of these title fights.

[gilgamesh]

Yes. You said that eventually there should be a new weight class added around Heavyweight. Which means you have no respect for the richest tradition in Sports.

Do you agree that the size difference between 200lb-ers competing at cruiserweight and world-rated heavyweights will continue to grow over time?

No

I don't figure Boxers can get too much bigger than the guys that are currently at the top now while still being effective.

For instance Valuev was physically bigger than Joshua or Fury, but he's nowhere near as talented.

[Enlightened-One]

Do you agree that the size difference between 200lb-ers competing at cruiserweight and world-rated heavyweights will continue to grow over time?

No

I don't figure Boxers can get too much bigger than the guys that are currently at the top now while still being effective.

For instance Valuev was physically bigger than Joshua or Fury, but he's nowhere near as talented.

I respectfully disagree, but that’s fine.

Scientists claim that humans are going to keep getting bigger, but it’s an individual choice as to whether or not we choose to believe them.

My stance is also based on the trajectory of the size trends illustrated by the BoxRec historical records, which seem fairly accurate to me.

Anyway, what are your thoughts about the stats I supplied in my previous post?

[Tony1244]

IF........

If Willard had beaten Dempsey.
If Abe Simon, Carnera, and Buddy Baer had beaten Louis.
If Mathis had beaten Frazier.
If Valuev had beaten Haye and really beaten Holyfield.

I'd agree with EO and Heretic.

But they didn't; so I don't.

[Enlightened-One]

Some interesting stats for those that claim that size doesn’t matter…

The following list represents the weights of the winners/champions of the world heavyweight title fights (including the WBA variants) that occurred within the last twenty years (i.e. since the 9th June 2000):

• WBA = 50 title fights; 2 winners weighing less than 215lbs; 3 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• WBC = 38 title fights; 2 winners weighing less than 215lbs; 4 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• IBF = 40 title fights; 5 winners weighing less than 215lbs; 5 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• WBO = 30 title fights; 0 winners weighing less than 215lbs; 1 winner weighing less than 220lbs

Here are the mathematical average weights for the winners/champions of all those title fights (rounded to the nearest pound):

• WBA = 247lbs
• WBC = 240lbs
• IBF = 242lbs
• WBO = 242lbs

Here are the champions (weighing less than 220lbs) that emerged victorious (or drew) in the title fights mentioned above:

• David Haye
• Roy Jones Jr
• Deontay Wilder
• Chris Byrd
• Sultan Ibragimov

David Haye and Deontay Wilder are the only fighters that successfully competed in world heavyweight title fights within the last decade weighing less than 225lbs.

If people are questioning the validity of these stats, I can easily provide the dates, names (of the winners) and weights for each of these title fights.

[gilgamesh]

No

I don't figure Boxers can get too much bigger than the guys that are currently at the top now while still being effective.

For instance Valuev was physically bigger than Joshua or Fury, but he's nowhere near as talented.

I respectfully disagree, but that’s fine.

Scientists claim that humans are going to keep getting bigger, but it’s an individual choice as to whether or not we choose to believe them.

My stance is also based on the trajectory of the size trends illustrated by the BoxRec historical records, which seem fairly accurate to me.

Anyway, what are your thoughts about the stats I supplied in my previous post?

Sounds like Heavyweight Boxing to me.

You say Haye and Wilder are the only 2 Heavyweights under 225 to have competed in multiple bouts over the last decade.

Which is true.

You neglect to mention that Wilder managed to make 10 successful title defenses, the majority of them coming against bigger men than himself.

And the time he came into the ring weighing his heaviest, he was defeated.

Sometimes, being the leaner, faster guy is the advantage you need.

[Tony1244]

Again..... a hell of a lot of "exceptions."

You can't find these "exceptions" with lightweights beating middleweights or flyweights beating welterweights, but loads and loads of "exceptions" of 215 guys beating 230+ guys.

And not just title fights. Countless of "exceptions" of guys weighing under 220 beating guys weighing over 240 in club fights, journeymen fights etc.

[gilgamesh]

Again..... a hell of a lot of "exceptions."

You can't find these "exceptions" with lightweights beating middleweights or flyweights beating welterweights, but loads and loads of "exceptions" of 215 guys beating 230+ guys.

And not just title fights. Countless of "exceptions" of guys weighing under 220 beating guys weighing over 240 in club fights, journeymen fights etc.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If you're a well conditioned 200 pound man. You're physically strong enough to pose a problem to anybody.

It's just a matter of how skilled you are.

Not saying you're not at a disadvantage when somebody weighs 250, but you're not just completely out of the contest either.

[Ambling Alp II]

How does the weight "advantage" work any way?
People routinely point to it as if that is all there is to mention it.
Say a guy has a 25 weight "advantage".
Does he get to take a 25 pound weight and bash it against the lighter guy who has to stand there and take it?

[Enlightened-One]

Some interesting stats for those that claim that size doesn’t matter…

The following list represents the weights of the winners/champions of the world heavyweight title fights (including the WBA variants) that occurred within the last twenty years (i.e. since the 9th June 2000):

• WBA = 50 title fights; 2 winners weighing less than 215lbs; 3 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• WBC = 38 title fights; 2 winners weighing less than 215lbs; 4 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• IBF = 40 title fights; 5 winners weighing less than 215lbs; 5 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• WBO = 30 title fights; 0 winners weighing less than 215lbs; 1 winner weighing less than 220lbs

Here are the mathematical average weights for the winners/champions of all those title fights (rounded to the nearest pound):

• WBA = 247lbs
• WBC = 240lbs
• IBF = 242lbs
• WBO = 242lbs

Here are the champions (weighing less than 220lbs) that emerged victorious (or drew) in the title fights mentioned above:

• David Haye
• Roy Jones Jr
• Deontay Wilder
• Chris Byrd
• Sultan Ibragimov

David Haye and Deontay Wilder are the only fighters that successfully competed in world heavyweight title fights within the last decade weighing less than 225lbs.

If people are questioning the validity of these stats, I can easily provide the dates, names (of the winners) and weights for each of these title fights.

[Ambling Alp II]

How many "losses" do fighters under 220 have ?