Is it time for super heavyweight division?

[gilgamesh]

Deontay Wilder, as EO points out one of the only 2 Heavyweight Champions of the last decade. Made 10 successful title defenses.

Which as far as Heavyweight title reigns go. Is pretty lengthy.

If anybody questions this stat I can provide names, weights of his opponents too.

[gilgamesh]

No need to post your stat sheet twice on the same page EO. We saw it the first time.

How about commenting on my point instead of trying to sh*t on the greatest tradition in Sports.

[Tony1244]

What grinds my gears is that if Usyk was HW champion and fought at about 215-220, EO and Heretic would have no problem with Helenius being Super HW, even though Usyk could beat Helenius in his sleep giving away over 20 pounds.

If I'm wrong about my assumption, either of them can correct it. Some pseudo fans just seem to want more titles.

[gilgamesh]

What grinds my gears is that if Usyk was HW champion and fought at about 215-220, EO and Heretic would have no problem with Helenius being Super HW, even though Usyk could beat Helenius in his sleep giving away over 20 pounds.

If I'm wrong about my assumption, either of them can correct it. Some pseudo fans just seem to want more titles.

I don't know why in God's name anybody would want more titles or weight classes.

I want a whole lot less of both.

[Enlightened-One]

No need to post your stat sheet twice on the same page EO. We saw it the first time.

How about commenting on my point instead of trying to sh*t on the greatest tradition in Sports.

The stats I’m citing are perceived as inconvenient truths, whereby people are trying to bury them beneath irrelevant posts. Preventing others from seeing them.

It’s a form of dishonest debating tactic, hence the barrage of posts others have submitted when they became embarrassed about the real-world figures I disclosed.

People keep pretending that size doesn’t matter, but the same individuals do their upmost to avoid directly addressing real-world truths that clearly undermine their claims.

These people can’t pretend that certain rare instances of small heavyweights achieving success against bigger men are simply the norm, when the stats suggest otherwise.

In terms of your point about Deontay Wilder, his mathematical average weight for all his world title bouts actually exceeds 220lbs.

[gilgamesh]

I never said your stats weren't true, but it doesn't change the fact that we don't need a new weight class.

And we also don't need a stat sheet a mile long twice on the same page.

[gilgamesh]

No need to post your stat sheet twice on the same page EO. We saw it the first time.

How about commenting on my point instead of trying to sh*t on the greatest tradition in Sports.

The stats I’m citing are perceived as inconvenient truths, whereby people are trying to bury them beneath irrelevant posts. Preventing others from seeing them.

It’s a form of dishonest debating tactic, hence the barrage of posts others have submitted when they became embarrassed about the real-world figures I disclosed.

People keep pretending that size doesn’t matter, but the same individuals do their upmost to avoid directly addressing real-world truths that clearly undermine their claims.

These people can’t pretend that certain rare instances of small heavyweights achieving success against bigger men are simply the norm, when the stats suggest otherwise.

In terms of your point about Deontay Wilder, his mathematical average weight for all his world title bouts actually exceeds 220lbs.

He was giving away weight to his opponents on numerous occasions though.

Let me give you a few more stats

Jack Dempsey weighed 187 pounds when he gave the 245 pound Jess Willard the worst beating in the history of Heavyweight Championship Fights.

A 206 pound Joe Louis knocked out a 250 pound Buddy Baer in the 1st round.

These are not common occurrences because big guys like that weren't common then.

Ya know what else. Throughout Boxing history there have been lots of exceptionally large guys. Most of whom never became Champions because they were uncoordinated, and not particularly skilled.

In fact all of the Tall, Exceptionally big guys with Elite level coordination have come in the last 30 years.

Now it could be that larger people are developing a better coordination in general. Or it could be that Lennox Lewis, The Klitschko's, Tyson Fury, Anthony Joshua are exceptions. Because throughout Heavyweight Championship history it's not as if guys this size were banned from fighting back in the 1940's or 1950's or even the 1920's.

It's just that they weren't good enough.

My point is. There's more to being a Heavyweight Champion than being big.

[Enlightened-One]

The stats I’m citing are perceived as inconvenient truths, whereby people are trying to bury them beneath irrelevant posts. Preventing others from seeing them.

It’s a form of dishonest debating tactic, hence the barrage of posts others have submitted when they became embarrassed about the real-world figures I disclosed.

People keep pretending that size doesn’t matter, but the same individuals do their upmost to avoid directly addressing real-world truths that clearly undermine their claims.

These people can’t pretend that certain rare instances of small heavyweights achieving success against bigger men are simply the norm, when the stats suggest otherwise.

In terms of your point about Deontay Wilder, his mathematical average weight for all his world title bouts actually exceeds 220lbs.

He was giving away weight to his opponents on numerous occasions though.

What reason did Wilder give when he weighed 231lbs for the Fury rematch?

Be honest now, what were his actual words?

[gilgamesh]

As I recall it was because he wanted to be stronger, and able to compete more. I don't remember the exact quote, if you do you can lay it on me.

Regardless of the reason he gave. The fact of the matter is, he gave a much better effort, and was able to knock Fury down when he came in lighter at HIS best fighting weight. When he put on extra bulk trying to match strength with the much bigger man. He failed miserably.

You use what you got in Boxing. Don't try to play your opponents game. Make him play yours.

[Enlightened-One]

As I recall it was because he wanted to be stronger, and able to compete more. I don't remember the exact quote, if you do you can lay it on me.

Regardless of the reason he gave. The fact of the matter is, he gave a much better effort, and was able to knock Fury down when he came in lighter at HIS best fighting weight. When he put on extra bulk trying to match strength with the much bigger man. He failed miserably.

You use what you got in Boxing. Don't try to play your opponents game. Make him play yours.

So you’re admitting that even Wilder felt that size mattered, hence the reason for him intentionally gaining weight.

The stats I supplied for the last twenty years really do matter, since they’re an objective representation of reality, which renders all opinions as being useless.

And let’s not forget that facts don’t care about feelings, hence the reason for me posting such statistics.

People clearly need to be educated on the definition of the word exception, since they were claiming certain situations were commonplace when in reality they weren’t.

Neither you, me or anyone else can pretend otherwise, since historical reality is what it is. No one can rewrite history.

[gilgamesh]

So he wanted to get bigger. So the f*ck what?

So ruin Boxing's greatest tradition because golly gee you sure wish the smaller Heavyweights could win more?

F*ck that.

Nobody can rewrite history indeed. So quit trying to taint history.

Exceptionally talented and skilled fighters win the Heavyweight Championship. Is size a factor, yes. Is it the only factor? Hell no.

If it were Valuev and Primo Carnera would've been the best there ever was.

[Enlightened-One]

So he wanted to get bigger. So the f*ck what?

So ruin Boxing's greatest tradition because golly gee you sure wish the smaller Heavyweights could win more?

F*ck that.

Nobody can rewrite history indeed. So quit trying to taint history.

Exceptionally talented and skilled fighters win the Heavyweight Championship. Is size a factor, yes. Is it the only factor? Hell no.

If it were Valuev and Primo Carnera would've been the best there ever was.

And I never once pretended that skills didn’t matter.

And I had also previously undermined the abilities of the likes of Valuev and Carnera.

At least you’ve conceded to my way of thinking.

So thanks for that, it’s appreciated.

[gilgamesh]

Haven't conceded to sh*t. If you think there should be another weight class between Cruiserweight and Heavyweight I oppose you whole heartedly, and always would.

I feel so strongly about this that if a weight class were ever added there I'd straight up quit watching Boxing.

Because I would consider it an act akin to pissing on the grave of Joe Louis or Jack Dempsey or Muhammad Ali or Joe Frazier.

[Enlightened-One]

Haven't conceded to sh*t. If you think there should be another weight class between Cruiserweight and Heavyweight I oppose you whole heartedly, and always would.

I feel so strongly about this that if a weight class were ever added there I'd straight up quit watching Boxing.

Because I would consider it an act akin to pissing on the grave of Joe Louis or Jack Dempsey or Muhammad Ali or Joe Frazier.

A new weight class would never be perceived as being prestigious as the heavyweight division.

It didn’t happen when the cruiserweight division was created (or gained credibility).

All it would do is level the playing field for fighters weighing between 201lbs to 230lbs or so.

The creation of the new weight class wouldn’t detract from the prestige of the “heavyweight” division, since it would clearly be given a name of its own to avoid confusion.

Heavyweights would still be heavyweights.

[gilgamesh]

Haven't conceded to sh*t. If you think there should be another weight class between Cruiserweight and Heavyweight I oppose you whole heartedly, and always would.

I feel so strongly about this that if a weight class were ever added there I'd straight up quit watching Boxing.

Because I would consider it an act akin to pissing on the grave of Joe Louis or Jack Dempsey or Muhammad Ali or Joe Frazier.

A new weight class would never be perceived as being prestigious as the heavyweight division.

It didn’t happen when the cruiserweight division was created (or gained credibility).

All it would do is level the playing field for fighters weighing between 201lbs to 230lbs or so.

The creation of the new weight class wouldn’t detract from the prestige of the “heavyweight” division, since it would clearly be given a name of its own to avoid confusion.

Heavyweights would still be heavyweights.

No

And F*ck You, F*ck You, F*ck You in the ass.

Remove 7 weight classes. Add none. Ever

[Enlightened-One]

A new weight class would never be perceived as being prestigious as the heavyweight division.

It didn’t happen when the cruiserweight division was created (or gained credibility).

All it would do is level the playing field for fighters weighing between 201lbs to 230lbs or so.

The creation of the new weight class wouldn’t detract from the prestige of the “heavyweight” division, since it would clearly be given a name of its own to avoid confusion.

Heavyweights would still be heavyweights.

No

And F*ck You, F*ck You, F*ck You in the ass.

Remove 7 weight classes. Add none. Ever

A little harsh, but I guess we’ll agree to disagree.

It’s good to see a moderator leading by example.

[gilgamesh]

I agree

[jujigatame]

How many "losses" do fighters under 220 have ?

Yea this would be my question as well. Wins on their own are a dubious metric. Anyone 220 or smaller can fight at CW if they choose to.

Also, anyone 250 or under could make 225, so all you're really doing is creating a ridiculous situation where Tyson Fury would rule over a SHW division with nobody else in it. Or, more realistically, a situation where guys bounce between HW and SHW based purely on matchmaking and not for sporting reasons.

[gilgamesh]

How many "losses" do fighters under 220 have ?

Yea this would be my question as well. Wins on their own are a dubious metric. Anyone 220 or smaller can fight at CW if they choose to.

Also, anyone 250 or under could make 225, so all you're really doing is creating a ridiculous situation where Tyson Fury would rule over a SHW division with nobody else in it. Or, more realistically, a situation where guys bounce between HW and SHW based purely on matchmaking and not for sporting reasons.

Plus...ya know.

The whole pissing on the graves of Legends thing.

[Ambling Alp II]

Which is really what this about. People that don't respect history bring up the weight as a cop out.
Bring up big guys from the past who lost to smaller fighters and they resort the big guys back then just weren't very good. The big guys are good now though!!

As for my question about losses, what we mostly see is a guy weighing 240 or 250 fighting another guy that weighs 240 or 250. guess what? A guy weighing 240 or 250 won!! Imagine that?

When we get real life fights between one guy who weighed less than 220 and another who weighed more, the smaller guy seems to do surprisingly (to some people)in pretty well.

In real life, the smaller guy wins a lot more often than he does in these silly fantasy fights.

[oogiebe]

Getting back tot he topic. Hell no. Heavyweight should always be the baddest man on the planet.

[margaret thatcher]

Which is really what this about. People that don't respect history bring up the weight as a cop out.
Bring up big guys from the past who lost to smaller fighters and they resort the big guys back then just weren't very good. The big guys are good now though!!

As for my question about losses, what we mostly see is a guy weighing 240 or 250 fighting another guy that weighs 240 or 250. guess what? A guy weighing 240 or 250 won!! Imagine that?

When we get real life fights between one guy who weighed less than 220 and another who weighed more, the smaller guy seems to do surprisingly (to some people)in pretty well.

In real life, the smaller guy wins a lot more often than he does in these silly fantasy fights.

It's a wonder some 6'1 185-200 pounder doesn't maintain that lean and ready weight and clean all these lumps up, theyre there for the taking

We should really be looking at LHW for the next HW star

[Ambling Alp II]

Would take a great fighter. Its a bit under the ideal size.
How about you make a list of the times Hall of Famer under 200 fought a guy over 220 and see how the big guys did.

[margaret thatcher]

F#ck ya then bruh, then let's get these 185-200 pound studs up to hw, keep their weight the same, and have them clear out the giants of today

So many people get it wrong looking for the big guys, it's the 6'0 190 pounder who will be the underestimated killer . That is roughly the ideal hw range

Too many people thinking of HW boxers like they should be NBA sized or something

[gilgamesh]

The point is. It's been done before. It can be done again.

Guys that are 210 pounds didn't suddenly become Lightweights.

Mike Tyson has been the biggest Heavyweight star of the last 3 decades easily. He was always considered small for a Heavyweight.