Is it time for super heavyweight division?

[Enlightened-One]

What are you hoping to achieve by this question?

And why haven’t you bothered to research the answer for yourself?

If very few small fighters (i.e. those weighing less than 220lbs) were even given title shots within the last twenty years, then the resulting win/loss ratio is utterly meaningless.

For instance, if you review the WBC’s world heavyweight title fights within the last twenty years, Deontay Wilder is the only man to have ever fought for that championship weighing less than 220lbs.

And he’s only ever done so on four separate occasions, winning three times.

But there have been 38 WBC world heavyweight title fights and nine titleholders within the last twenty years!

There hasn’t been a single fighter that fought for the WBO version of the world heavyweight title within the last decade weighing less than 220lbs.

Vyacheslav Glazkov and Jean Marc Mormeck were the only IBF title challengers within the last decade that weighed less than 220lbs. They were both KO’d rather quickly.

David Haye competed in two WBA world heavyweight title bouts within the last decade weighing less than 220lbs (winning one and losing the other). Jean Marc Mormeck challenged for the same title, but was KO’d rather quickly (as per the IBF title bout).

So what?

I answered somebody else’s question, hence the nature of my post.

[Enlightened-One]

The statistics prove that size really does matter (i.e. a good big man beats a good little man) and also that smaller heavyweights (those weighing less than 220lbs) have achieved very little success in the heavyweight division within the last twenty years.

I feel the statistics I’ve supplied cannot possibly be interpreted in any other way.

It depends on their on their body mass composition, but I get what you’re saying.

Personally-speaking, I’m against the idea of creating a new weight division named “super heavyweights”.

I’m much more in favour of creating something that could possibly be named as the “super-cruiserweight” division, with the lower limit of the existing heavyweight division increased from 200lbs to 225lbs.

And considering the fact that most current heavyweights weigh in the region of 245lbs, this should have minimal impact on today’s heaviest weight class (i.e. it won't affect the name of the weight class, most heavyweight competitors, the divisions' legacy or its current prestigious status).

I think the new (201lbs to 225lbs) weight division (as per the cruiserweights) would probably take at least a decade to fifteen years to gain credibility, to become established enough to the point it would become capable of providing competitors with decent paydays.

In the meantime, I reckon most heavyweights would continue to compete in their natural habitat weighing more than 225lbs, because that's where the biggest payday opportunities lie.

In my mind, it seems inevitable for the current iteration of the heavyweight division to eventually be split into two, resulting in the creation of an additional weight class, mainly due to safety reasons and also to level the playing field.

What cannot be refuted is the size gap between 200lbs cruiserweights and top-tier world-rated heavyweights continues to grow as time passes by, because human beings are getting increasing bigger per generation, which means that something has to eventually happen in order to fill that void.

You're missing multiple points here.

First of all, the reason guys under 220 have little success at HW is because most of them fight at CW. Anyone under 220 has the option of fighting at CW if they want to.

Second of all, your suggestion to create a SCW division instead of a SHW division is really just semantics, isn't it? So you keep the no-limit HW division to preserve the history, but you create a new SCW division. Who fights in this division? The tiny subset of fighters who weigh around 225-235 who can't make CW but don't want to be at a size disadvantage? So what are you left with? A division made pretty much just for Wilder and Povetkin? Would they even want to compete in that new division? What would a guy like Usyk who wants to move from CW to HW do? He's not even big enough to break the 225 limit so would he even be allowed to fight at HW?

The UFC has shown that the difference between an elite CW (or LHW as they're called in UFC) and elite HW is very minimal. Daniel Cormier was a 235 pound HW. He moved down to 205 and won a title. Then moved back up to HW and won a title. Ryan Bader did the same in Bellator. Jon Jones could have undoubtedly done the same. There is just no need for an additional weight class.

There will be fighters that may feel that they can’t make the cruiserweight limit.

David Haye claimed he made the jump to heavyweight, because he felt he could no longer physically achieve the cruiserweight limit.

And I am sure there will be fighters competing today, albeit unsuccessfully, who may feel the same (stuck between weight classes).

There’s roughly a 45lbs void between 200lbs cruiserweights and typical world-rated heavyweights.

[jujigatame]

Except most cruiserweights weigh more than 200 pounds. You are ignoring the reality of the situation.

The only time Haye could maybe not have made the CW limit is after he retired and put on a bunch of extra weight. When he fought Wlad he weighed 210 and could easily have made CW.

Right now the only fighters you could successfully argue are getting screwed are the handful who naturally weigh in the 195-200 range, who realistically can't make the LHW limit but may be outsized by many CWs. But in practice this is not such a huge problem because most guys who weigh around 220 and are good enough to compete at HW do so.

[gilgamesh]

Except most cruiserweights weigh more than 200 pounds. You are ignoring the reality of the situation.

The only time Haye could maybe not have made the CW limit is after he retired and put on a bunch of extra weight. When he fought Wlad he weighed 210 and could easily have made CW.

Right now the only fighters you could successfully argue are getting screwed are the handful who naturally weigh in the 195-200 range, who realistically can't make the LHW limit but may be outsized by many CWs. But in practice this is not such a huge problem because most guys who weigh around 220 and are good enough to compete at HW do so.

A lot of guys these days put on extra weight just to put on extra weight too.

It's an overrated advantage big time.

Like you were mentioning if a guy is naturally 190 or 195 pounds or so. I personally would advise him to compete weighing that, and get the best out of himself.

Putting on extra 5 pounds just because it's the maximum limit of the weight class even though it's not necessarily making you any stronger or better isn't a benefit.

A good example of this. We've seen quite a few guys who kiled themselves to make say 140 for quite a while, and then when they moved up to 147 and made weight more comfortably they performed way better.

Basically I think the guy that's making weight comfortably, and is in his best condition will be better served than the guy that's cutting massive amounts of weight so that he can gain 10 to 20 pounds overnight for the perceived size advantage.

[Enlightened-One]

Except most cruiserweights weigh more than 200 pounds. You are ignoring the reality of the situation.

Are you seriously claiming that all small heavyweights are physically capable of making the 200lbs cruiserweight limit?

The size gap between rehydrated 200lb-ers and typical 245lbs+ world-rated heavyweights is still very significant.

There will definitely be small heavyweights that are too small to be competitive against 245lb-ers, whilst also being physically incapable of competing effectively at 200lbs.

You are ignoring the real-world reason why weight classes exist.

And you are also ignoring the statistical reality of the situation, related to the amount of success small heavyweights weighing less than 225lbs have achieved in our beloved sport within the last decade.

[Ghost Town Ghost]

Agree wholeheartedly with Gilgamesh and others that we need LESS divisions. Boxing is the greatest sport in the world, and there is a reason for that. Let the smaller heavies go at it with the bigger guys!

[gilgamesh]

Agree wholeheartedly with Gilgamesh and others that we need LESS divisions. Boxing is the greatest sport in the world, and there is a reason for that. Let the smaller heavies go at it with the bigger guys!

Like they always have for the last 150 years.

Richest Tradition in Sports. Don't mess with that.

Hell aside from that, think of how much better the Welterweight division would be if there was no 140 pound weight class? Think of how much better Middleweight would be if there was no 154?

Etc.

[Ghost Town Ghost]

Hell aside from that, think of how much better the Welterweight division would be if there was no 140 pound weight class? Think of how much better Middleweight would be if there was no 154?

Absolutely! And even if there were a super heavy class, how long would it take fanboys to start bragging how their favorite gigantor sized fighter beat a slightly larger gigantor sized fighter lol?

[Tony1244]

All Jr and super divisions must be permanently abolished.

Having a weight division every 3 to 5 pounds is either mental retardation or corruption.

[Tony1244]

Agree wholeheartedly with Gilgamesh and others that we need LESS divisions. Boxing is the greatest sport in the world, and there is a reason for that. Let the smaller heavies go at it with the bigger guys!

I'll put my money on the smaller heavyweights.

[margaret thatcher]

Agree wholeheartedly with Gilgamesh and others that we need LESS divisions. Boxing is the greatest sport in the world, and there is a reason for that. Let the smaller heavies go at it with the bigger guys!

I'll put my money on the smaller heavyweights.

Okay, I'll take Fury and AJ, who you got?

[Tony1244]

I'll put my money on the smaller heavyweights.

Okay, I'll take Fury and AJ, who you got?

Oh, I was just trying to annoy EO, but I would still mean it in many instances. I'd favor Fury over Wilder but not by much.

[Enlightened-One]

I’ll put my money on the smaller heavyweights.

If you placed your life savings predicting that a lot of small heavyweights would be successful during the last twenty years or so, you would have already been declared bankrupt by now.

[margaret thatcher]

Ya, little Deontay at 6'7 225 with an 83 in reach (and just battered by big Tys but somehow still close to even money)

Who are small hws these days. I would say Povetkin is small, Miichael Hunter. Stiverne was nnaturally smaller. Not Wilder really. Tbf there have been plenty of not particularly large hws who contended or won belts in recent years, but the guys at the very top have big larger chaps

Will be interesting to see when the 'classic' sized hw of 6'1 200ish comes to the very top

[Tony1244]

Ya, little Deontay at 6'7 225 with an 83 in reach (and just battered by big Tys but somehow still close to even money)

He got creamed last time out no doubt. But chins usually don't get better; curious to see how he handles Deontay's right hand, if he can land with it. Also Fury's lifestyle has been interesting to say the least. I didn't say close to even money, but any outcome other than a Wilder decision would not surprise me.

[margaret thatcher]

Ya, little Deontay at 6'7 225 with an 83 in reach (and just battered by big Tys but somehow still close to even money)

He got creamed last time out no doubt. But chins usually don't get better; curious to see how he handles Deontay's right hand, if he can land with it. Also Fury's lifestyle has been interesting to say the least. I didn't say close to even money, but any outcome other than a Wilder decision would not surprise me.

Fought him twice and hasn't been stopped in either, only Wilder has. Wilder still couldn't beat Fury when Fury had 0 proper preparation and tune ups the first time. And you said you wouldn't favour Fury by much, how is that any differnt than close to even

But aside, that's not even the issue, Wilder really isn't a small HW as much as some people wish. He's 6'7 , 83 inch reach, and is still ripped and lean at 230+.

A small HW today is like Povetkin or Hunter, 6'1-6'2 and soft even in the 220s (or for Hunter even lower)

[Tony1244]

I’ll put my money on the smaller heavyweights.

If you placed your life savings predicting that a lot of small heavyweights would be successful during the last twenty years or so, you would have already been declared bankrupt by now.

I would have lost money on the corrupt Valuev-Holy fight. Many thought Hunter beat Povetkin. Hunter and Usyk can hold their own against most bigger men. And Wilder has only lost once.

[margaret thatcher]

If you placed your life savings predicting that a lot of small heavyweights would be successful during the last twenty years or so, you would have already been declared bankrupt by now.

I would have lost money on the corrupt Valuev-Holy fight. Many thought Hunter beat Povetkin. Hunter and Usyk can hold their own against most bigger men. And Wilder has only lost once.

Povetkin isn't much bigger than Hunter, they are both small hws today and the 40 year old still got a draw btw

Wilder is 6'7 has an 83 in reach and is lean even at 230, he's outweighed mainly because his opponents have been lardy

[Ambling Alp II]

Yet he fought so much better at 212. Had a draw with Fury. Previous six fights was under 225. At 231, he looked awful. It's almost like there is a pattern there.

Didn't Fury fight little Steve Cunningham ?

[margaret thatcher]

Oh, big surprise he did better when Fury was coming back with 0 proper tune ups, it's almost as if keeping active at a good enough level matters!

[margaret thatcher]

Yet he fought so much better at 212. Had a draw with Fury. Previous six fights was under 225. At 231, he looked awful. It's almost like there is a pattern there.

Didn't Fury fight little Steve Cunningham ?

Wilder's last 21 fights, only beaten 2 guys when he weighed below 220. Dude is 6'7 with an 83 inch reach and still ripped and lean at 232. How he counts is small is beyond me, do you think Stiverne was a naturally bigger man than him too

[margaret thatcher]

Yet he fought so much better at 212. Had a draw with Fury. Previous six fights was under 225. At 231, he looked awful. It's almost like there is a pattern there.

Didn't Fury fight little Steve Cunningham ?

Ya, and he basically leaned on him and wore him out by being bigger

[Tony1244]

The closer Wilder is to 212 the better chance he has against Fury.

I agree, he's not small, but 1 or 2 people on here believe a guy 212 should be in another division.

[jujigatame]

Except most cruiserweights weigh more than 200 pounds. You are ignoring the reality of the situation.

Are you seriously claiming that all small heavyweights are physically capable of making the 200lbs cruiserweight limit?

The size gap between rehydrated 200lb-ers and typical 245lbs+ world-rated heavyweights is still very significant.

There will definitely be small heavyweights that are too small to be competitive against 245lb-ers, whilst also being physically incapable of competing effectively at 200lbs.

You are ignoring the real-world reason why weight classes exist.

And you are also ignoring the statistical reality of the situation, related to the amount of success small heavyweights weighing less than 225lbs have achieved in our beloved sport within the last decade.

I mean it depends on what you are defining as a "small heavyweight" but yes, I am claiming that. Weight cutting is a huge part of the game at every other weight class. The only reason you don't see guys cutting big weight to get to CW is because those guys would prefer to fight at HW for the increased money and prestige. They are making an informed decision.

The way you are measuring "the statistical reality" is not valid.

[H8Usernames]

or is just goofs like you with no respect for the sport.

"Goofs" "No respect for the sport" "Go to hell". Sounds like someone needs to go to his local gym to prove his greatness in the ring.

Trying to start a flame war or something?

You certainly are escalating any arguement here telling people these things, making fun of them and calling them names from behind the heroic keyboard. Are threats the next step?