Is it time for super heavyweight division?

[gilgamesh]

Most combat sports don't even bother with 10 weight classes right?

In MMA as far as I know there is Heavyweight, Light Heavyweight, Middleweight, Welterweight, Lightweight, Featherweight, Bantamweight and Flyweight, mostly in Asia.

That's 8 weight classes.

If I'm not mistaken Kickboxing only has the same 8 weight classes

With Boxing weight classes I wouldn't mind keeping Strawweight and Cruiserweight for the particularly undersized guys or particularly big Light Heavyweights.

That being said, I think if somebody is 189 or 190 pounds, and WANTS to compete as a Heavyweight, they should be allowed to.

WWE only has 3 weight classes. ☺

Sorta in the realm of Combat Sports, but not one. Usually the smallish guys don't translate as well with Wrestling, but it's become the norm these days more so than it used to for sure.

[Enlightened-One]

Hell when Roy Jones won his WBA title from John Ruiz he entered the bout weighing 193.

The Cruiserweight division was moved up to 200 about 5 years or so after that.

So unless it ever changes back, Roy will be the last Heavyweight Titleholder under 200 pounds, but it's ironic that in the modern era where so many act as if the undersized guys just can't possibly compete anymore that Roy achieved it in the last 20 years while not even weighing the current Cruiserweight limit.

No one is claiming that it’s impossible for undersized fighters to be effective against much bigger foes.

What people are instead arguing, such as myself, is that a good big man nearly always beats a good little man.

We’ve both expressed the same sentiments many times: "Size matters, but it’s not the be-all-and-end-all."

Exceptions occur, but they’re known as "exceptions" for a reason (i.e. rare instances that defy the frequently occurring most common general rule).

Anyway, the size difference between Jones Jr. & Ruiz was much smaller than the discrepancy between 200lbs cruiserweights in comparison today’s typical world-rated heavyweights.

It’s basic maths! Check the numbers for yourself.

And whilst Jones Jr’s feat of capturing the world heavyweight title was incredible, he was heavily favoured to beat an unimpressive, primitively-skilled and small champion.

And let’s not forget that the 226lbs John Ruiz was much smaller than many of his world-rated heavyweight peers (i.e. Lennox Lewis [253lbs]; Wladimir Klitschko [246lbs]; Vitali Klitschko [250lbs]; Mike Tyson [234lbs]; Hasim Rahman [245lbs]; Kirk Johnson [240lbs]; Jameel McCline [262lbs]; David Tua [247lbs]).

Also, Roy Jones Jr. used PED’s. He tested positive for anabolic steroids and got away with it. The IBF even once asked him to take a test, but he didn’t agree to it and faced no consequences.

Jones Jr. wasn’t tested at all for many of his fights, because most fighters weren’t being tested during this era (because it may not have been mandatory), but we know for certain that Roy used anabolic steroids, which may have somehow contributed to his remarkable athletic prowess and heavily muscled incredibly ripped physique.

And finally, there was a rather obvious reason why Jones Jr. immediately returned to the 175lbs weight division after capturing the world heavyweight title, despite the vastly superior paydays he’d receive facing bigger (much more prestigious) foes…

Would you like to tell everyone what that reason was?

[Ambling Alp II]

Some of us have checked the numbers, we just use useful comparisons.
The best way is look at what happens in real fights. Not fantasy fights. Not fights where both guys are big or both are small.

Our main point (that you and some others) keep ignoring comes down to this:

The weight advantage only goes so far. At a certain point it's not an advantage at a certain point.
i.e. A guy weighing 220 does have a huge edge against someone weighing 170. A guy weighing 270 does not have the that edge against someone weighing 220.

This is what some people get, or don't want to get.

[Enlightened-One]

Our main point (that you and some others) keep ignoring comes down to this:

The weight advantage only goes so far. At a certain point it's not an advantage at a certain point.
i.e. A guy weighing 220 does have a huge edge against someone weighing 170. A guy weighing 270 does not have the that edge against someone weighing 220.

This is what some people get, or don't want to get.

You're ignoring the content of my posts, which I've conveyed multiple times in this thread (even in the post immediately preceding yours):

No one is claiming that it’s impossible for undersized fighters to be effective against much bigger foes.

What people are instead arguing, such as myself, is that a good big man nearly always beats a good little man.

We’ve both expressed the same sentiments many times: "Size matters, but it’s not the be-all-and-end-all."

Exceptions occur, but they’re known as "exceptions" for a reason (i.e. rare instances that defy the frequently occurring most common general rule).

At a certain point it's not an advantage at a certain point.
i.e. A guy weighing 220 does have a huge edge against someone weighing 170. A guy weighing 270 does not have the that edge against someone weighing 220.

This is what some people get, or don't want to get.

It depends on the body composition and fitness levels of the fighters in the fictional scenario you’ve described.

A physically athletic highly-skilled fighter (like Tyson Fury weighing 273lbs) is always going to beat any 220lbs fighter possessing similar skills and fitness levels, because his sheer size would become the main differential.

Being bigger is rarely a handicap in the heavyweight division. Whether you like it or not,

Tyson Fury beats Rocky Marciano 24/7 365, because he’s so much larger (i.e. almost a foot taller, nearly 100lbs heavier and also possessing a longer reach). SIZE MATTERS... NOSTALGIA DOESN'T!

Most typical 245lbs world-rated heavyweights beats most typical 200lbs world-rated cruiserweights, because SIZE MATTERS.

Of course, if the reason for a fighter weighing 50lbs more than his 220lbs foe, was entirely due to carrying excess fat, then the “larger” man would clearly be at a disadvantage, but this is an unrealistic scenario (unless you're Andy Ruiz Jr. that is).

That being said, the real-world stats from the last decade prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it’s extremely rare for any fighter weighing less than 225lbs to achieve any sort of success at world-level competing as a heavyweight.

There's an obvious reason for those stats being what they are. And it cannot be ignored.

Put it this way, Nikolay Valuev’s skill levels were primitive. He was also fairly slow. But he compensated for his lack of pugilistic fighting ability, by making the most out of his enormous size advantage, which resulted in him being a massive overachiever.

Any fighter weighing 220lbs that possessed Valuev’s lack of skills, experience, speed etc. would have become a journeyman suffering lots of KO losses, but Nikolay was somehow able to become a world champion.

If I tried to show empathy for your argument, it would be entirely reasonable to argue that (in extreme cases) morbidly obese or excessively muscled fighters, weighing 300lbs or more, would probably be at a disadvantage against most heavyweights weighing 245lbs or so.

For instance: if Tyson Fury was the same size/weight as Eddie Hall or Hafthor Bjornsson (who will both be making their highly lucrative boxing debuts next year), then he’d get battered by every single world-rated 245lbs heavyweight fighter, because he’d be far too slow and clumsy.

[Tony1244]

MT,

Ali and Frazier looked quite svelte. But so did AJ. My Fury example was good. My AJ example? Not so much.

I would still favor the best of Ali and Frazier over AJ, even giving away some size. Ruiz would never have stopped a prime Ali or Frazier. Better chins.

[Paci]

Valuev had good money behind him and good matchmaking to padd his record, and some shady judges to help him out. Not a good argument to use, when you out that his skillset is pretty limited among other things. He know how to use his size thou. Nothing more other then his weight that comes with it. Not taking anything away from him thou, he didn't fight the best or close to it.

Fantasy match ups? That is why we have boxing games!! Im still waiting for a new one since FNC is pretty old and steal.

[Tony1244]

Valuev had good money behind him and good matchmaking to padd his record, and some shady judges to help him out. Not a good argument to use, when you out that his skillset is pretty limited among other things. He know how to use his size thou. Nothing more other then his weight that comes with it. Not taking anything away from him thou, he didn't fight the best or close to it.

Fantasy match ups? That is why we have boxing games!! Im still waiting for a new one since FNC is pretty old and steal.

I can't believe anyone suggested Valuev is a good example of needing another division.

He really lost to Holy, and Holy was way, way past his prime. Haye gave away 99 LBS and still won !

There are people here who are so vacuous that they'd favor Valuev in the jab department over Liston due to reach.

[Paci]

Valuev had good money behind him and good matchmaking to padd his record, and some shady judges to help him out. Not a good argument to use, when you out that his skillset is pretty limited among other things. He know how to use his size thou. Nothing more other then his weight that comes with it. Not taking anything away from him thou, he didn't fight the best or close to it.

Fantasy match ups? That is why we have boxing games!! Im still waiting for a new one since FNC is pretty old and steal.

I can't believe anyone suggested Valuev is a good example of needing another division.

He really lost to Holy, and Holy was way, way past his prime. Haye gave away 99 LBS and still won !

There are people here who are so vacuous that they'd favor Valuev in the jab department over Liston due to reach.

At least his intension are based on making it more compatitive and fair. Adding weight will not help other then dietists and the orgs in the end of the day.

[Tony1244]

I can't believe anyone suggested Valuev is a good example of needing another division.

He really lost to Holy, and Holy was way, way past his prime. Haye gave away 99 LBS and still won !

There are people here who are so vacuous that they'd favor Valuev in the jab department over Liston due to reach.

At least his intension are based on making it more compatitive and fair. Adding weight will not help other then dietists and the orgs in the end of the day.

Whose intentions?

[Paci]

At least his intension are based on making it more compatitive and fair. Adding weight will not help other then dietists and the orgs in the end of the day.

Whose intentions?

EO's even if people loses their sh*t cause of him. I do get his point but his soluation is ain't good and will not help the sport in the mainstream with adding more dumb weight classes.

Just saying.

[Tony1244]

Whose intentions?

EO's even if people loses their sh*t cause of him. I do get his point but his soluation is ain't good and will not help the sport in the mainstream with adding more dumb weight classes.

Just saying.

It's hard to decipher someone's intentions online. I doubt he financially would benefit; I chalk it up to being grossly uninformed.

[Paci]

EO's even if people loses their sh*t cause of him. I do get his point but his soluation is ain't good and will not help the sport in the mainstream with adding more dumb weight classes.

Just saying.

It's hard to decipher someone's intentions online. I doubt he financially would benefit; I chalk it up to being grossly uninformed.

I toke my time and read what he wrote. Then made that conclusion by myself.

But, really boxing needs to drop some of the lower weights. And make it closer to 12 or 13 classes.
And if boxer have to fight in lower weight then what he has outside the ring. Fine, his or her choice. And fighting at your natural weight, well most guys don't do that. Mayweather and Hagler are two names that pops up.
Have no clue who Crawford makes 147...

[Tony1244]

It's hard to decipher someone's intentions online. I doubt he financially would benefit; I chalk it up to being grossly uninformed.

I toke my time and read what he wrote. Then made that conclusion by myself.

But, really boxing needs to drop some of the lower weights. And make it closer to 12 or 13 classes.
And if boxer have to fight in lower weight then what he has outside the ring. Fine, his or her choice. And fighting at your natural weight, well most guys don't do that. Mayweather and Hagler are two names that pops up.
Have no clue who Crawford makes 147...

12-13 weight classes is far too many IMO. I think 9 is the perfect #. The original 8 + CW.

Lightweight is 135, and then the next weight class is 140. That's patently ridiculous.

[Paci]

I toke my time and read what he wrote. Then made that conclusion by myself.

But, really boxing needs to drop some of the lower weights. And make it closer to 12 or 13 classes.
And if boxer have to fight in lower weight then what he has outside the ring. Fine, his or her choice. And fighting at your natural weight, well most guys don't do that. Mayweather and Hagler are two names that pops up.
Have no clue who Crawford makes 147...

12-13 weight classes is far too many IMO. I think 9 is the perfect #. The original 8 + CW.

Lightweight is 135, and then the next weight class is 140. That's patently ridiculous.

My cut of classes are Jr.Fly, Sup.Fly, Sup.Bantam, Sup.feather/light. Since I can't choose. Between either of super feather or lightweight.

Your take?

[Tony1244]

12-13 weight classes is far too many IMO. I think 9 is the perfect #. The original 8 + CW.

Lightweight is 135, and then the next weight class is 140. That's patently ridiculous.

My cut of classes are Jr.Fly, Sup.Fly, Sup.Bantam, Sup.feather/light. Since I can't choose. Between either of super feather or lightweight.

Your take?

If we were starting from scratch, I wouldn't have two weight classes within 10 pounds of each other. I'd have Fly 110, Bantam 120, Feather 130, etc.

But considering the limits have been Fly 112, Bantam 118, Feather 126 for over 100 years, i'd keep them as is; a time honor thing.

I'd keep original 8 as is and have CW @ 200. No supers, no juniors.

Perhaps in decades to come, increase limit on CW, but very very slowly.

[Enlightened-One]

It's hard to decipher someone's intentions online. I doubt he financially would benefit; I chalk it up to being grossly uninformed.

Grossly uninformed?

You need to read my posts and stop pretending that I hold an opinion I've never once conveyed to the forum.

After you've done that, you'll stop being grossly uninformed.

[Enlightened-One]

I toke my time and read what he wrote. Then made that conclusion by myself.

Even if you don't necessarily agree with me, at least you’ve actually read my words and formulated your own opinion after carefully-considering my thoughts and stats.

And I can’t fault you for that, especially because you're not pretending that I hold an opinion about something I've never once communicated to the forum.

[Paci]

My cut of classes are Jr.Fly, Sup.Fly, Sup.Bantam, Sup.feather/light. Since I can't choose. Between either of super feather or lightweight.

Your take?

If we were starting from scratch, I wouldn't have two weight classes within 10 pounds of each other. I'd have Fly 110, Bantam 120, Feather 130, etc.

But considering the limits have been Fly 112, Bantam 118, Feather 126 for over 100 years, i'd keep them as is; a time honor thing.

I'd keep original 8 as is and have CW @ 200. No supers, no juniors.

Perhaps in decades to come, increase limit on CW, but very very slowly.

Pretty hardcore.

[Tony1244]

I toke my time and read what he wrote. Then made that conclusion by myself.

Even if you don't necessarily agree with me, at least you’ve actually read my words and formulated your own opinion after carefully-considering my thoughts and stats.

And I can’t fault you for that, especially because you're not pretending that I hold an opinion about something I've never once communicated to the forum.

EO, you've done the same thing. You've written stuff like, "to those who think size doesn't matter." I've never said size doesn't matter, and I don't think anyone else has said size doesn't matter either.

[Paci]

I toke my time and read what he wrote. Then made that conclusion by myself.

Even if you don't necessarily agree with me, at least you’ve actually read my words and formulated your own opinion after carefully-considering my thoughts and stats.

And I can’t fault you for that, especially because you're not pretending that I hold an opinion about something I've never once communicated to the forum.

I do enjoy how people loses their sh*t over your statements(other then not agreeing with you on your points) and really I do not have no probs with them myself. You do come off as an officeworker or lawyer to me. Don't matter. Discussions among the fans are healthy for the sport, even if they do put a ring and wanna fight it out instead. When they don't agree. Then again bxingfans are boxingfans and some are more purtians then others.

Trying to balance it out and look at the clusterf*ck that is boxing with a sober view. At least I trying to be a realist when it comes to all aspects of the sport.

[Tony1244]

If we were starting from scratch, I wouldn't have two weight classes within 10 pounds of each other. I'd have Fly 110, Bantam 120, Feather 130, etc.

But considering the limits have been Fly 112, Bantam 118, Feather 126 for over 100 years, i'd keep them as is; a time honor thing.

I'd keep original 8 as is and have CW @ 200. No supers, no juniors.

Perhaps in decades to come, increase limit on CW, but very very slowly.

Pretty hardcore.

Let's say someone is a lightweight and fighting @ 135. He can't make the weight anymore. His ideal fighting weight now is 142-143. Are you really that worried about a size disadvantage if he's 143 and his opponent is 147?

[Paci]

Pretty hardcore.

Let's say someone is a lightweight and fighting @ 135. He can't make the weight anymore. His ideal fighting weight now is 142-143. Are you really that worried about a size disadvantage if he's 143 and his opponent is 147?

Why should I? If you can't make the weight anymore at all without killing yourself to get on the scale well... time to swich classes. Or just admint that you are starving yourself to fight smaller guys. That is my problem more then anything. Unhealth, dangerous and stupid and plain locco.

If you beat somebody who is bigger then you, kudos. Just need to watch how big Maidana was on fight nigth against Mayweather.

Skills pay the bills.

[Tony1244]

Let's say someone is a lightweight and fighting @ 135. He can't make the weight anymore. His ideal fighting weight now is 142-143. Are you really that worried about a size disadvantage if he's 143 and his opponent is 147?

Why should I? If you can't make the weight anymore at all without killing yourself to get on the scale well... time to swich classes. Or just admint that you are starving yourself to fight smaller guys. That is my problem more then anything. Unhealth, dangerous and stupid and plain locco.

If you beat somebody who is bigger then you, kudos. Just need to watch how big Maidana was on fight nigth against Mayweather.

Skills pay the bills.

This Jr and super nonsense kept great fights from happening such as Duran-Pryor or SRL-Pryor. If you're a healthy 142 and lose to a guy 147, I frankly don't think size was the issue, more like an excuse.

[Paci]

Why should I? If you can't make the weight anymore at all without killing yourself to get on the scale well... time to swich classes. Or just admint that you are starving yourself to fight smaller guys. That is my problem more then anything. Unhealth, dangerous and stupid and plain locco.

If you beat somebody who is bigger then you, kudos. Just need to watch how big Maidana was on fight nigth against Mayweather.

Skills pay the bills.

This Jr and super nonsense kept great fights from happening such as Duran-Pryor or SRL-Pryor. If you're a healthy 142 and lose to a guy 147, I frankly don't think size was the issue, more like an excuse.

Pyror never gots enough cred. Leonard avoided him like the plauge since the payout was not worth the risk and why did Duran dodge him?

[Tony1244]

This Jr and super nonsense kept great fights from happening such as Duran-Pryor or SRL-Pryor. If you're a healthy 142 and lose to a guy 147, I frankly don't think size was the issue, more like an excuse.

Pyror never gots enough cred. Leonard avoided him like the plauge since the payout was not worth the risk and why did Duran dodge him?

Of course he may have been dodged anyway but the weight class gave them a great excuse.