Muhammad Ali (1967) vs. current HWs ?

ValMar · Post by **ValMar** » 15 Jun 2020, 11:43

I opened a topic about Sonnyy Liston, not so long ago. Some posters claimed that Liston had been to small to successfuly compete against modern day big HWs. What about Ali ? His size might be compared with Usyk's.
What do you think ? Why ?

Ruthless-RKO · Post by **Ruthless-RKO** » 15 Jun 2020, 11:46

A lot of HW's now would have size advantage..

If you take away that advantage, and base it on skill, then that's a different story.

Onetimeonly · Post by **Onetimeonly** » 15 Jun 2020, 13:47

#1, pushes Liston to #2.

gilgamesh · Post by **gilgamesh** » 15 Jun 2020, 13:51

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 11:46 A lot of HW's now would have size advantage..

If you take away that advantage, and base it on skill, then that's a different story.

Keep the size advantage.

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 15 Jun 2020, 13:53

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 11:46 A lot of HW's now would have size advantage..

If you take away that advantage, and base it on skill, then that's a different story.

Thomastearns · Post by **Thomastearns** » 15 Jun 2020, 13:58

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 13:47 #1, pushes Liston to #2.

Yes. 100% agree.

Although Liston would do better against the 70s Ali.

That could be more like Ali v Foreman where it took a small miracle to have averted an attrocity. At least for the fans of the 'greatest'.

Norton and Frazier had far less luck.

Onetimeonly · Post by **Onetimeonly** » 15 Jun 2020, 13:59

So somebody thinks there are 8 better heavies of this weak batch? I'd love to see the names.

jas80s · Post by **jas80s** » 15 Jun 2020, 14:36

I'm sure we will get an awful lot of talk about size and almost no mention of speed. But, since when has speed ever been important in boxing?

Can't say he could never lose to anyone fighting today, but it's also hard to imagine anyone today consistently getting the better of him as well. He didn't face anyone exactly like who he would face today, but they have never fought anyone remotely like him either, not that combination of skills, speed (especially), and toughness.

Incidentally, Tyrell Biggs came out and said that Tyson hit harder than Lewis and Bowe in an interview posted here. i thought that was interesting as it relates to what is often discussed here. Perhaps speed has something to do with force?

I'd put him at #1, but not without the possibility of losing and regaining the title here and there.

tiny_acres · Post by **tiny_acres** » 15 Jun 2020, 14:38

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 13:59 So somebody thinks there are 8 better heavies of this weak batch? I'd love to see the names.

There is always at least one troll and one fucktard on every thread.
I am curious who voted that way and their reasons

TheBeast · Post by **TheBeast** » 15 Jun 2020, 15:09

#1... if Fury can do what he does, Ali can do much better... Usyk might pull it off soon imo

ValMar · Post by **ValMar** » 15 Jun 2020, 15:43

Ali (1967 version) is the best HW ever. This is my opinion, and there is no way to change my mind.
The best chances against 1967 Ali (considering current HWs) would have Usyk and Fury, but no more than 5%.

joshj909 · Post by **joshj909** » 15 Jun 2020, 15:54

Ali is the same height as or taller than Usyk, Povetkin, Ruiz, Hunter, Chisora and Rivas while Whyte, Ortiz, Pulev and Miller are only 2cm taller than him.

If we're all on the understanding that Ali is more skillful than all of these heavyweights, or even all but three of them if you really want to be desperate, size would only matter with regards to AJ, Fury and Wilder. He beats everyone else with that minuscule size disadvantage. So at the very worst you can put him at 4th.

But it's worth remembering that 6'3 Cunningham dropped Fury and 6'3 McDermott arguably beat him. 6'2 Ruiz KO'd Joshua. While 6'2 Sconiers dropped Wilder and 6'0 Romanov KO'd him in the amateurs.

Thomastearns · Post by **Thomastearns** » 15 Jun 2020, 16:01

ValMar wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 15:43 Ali (1967 version) is the best HW ever. This is my opinion, and there is no way to change my mind.
The best chances against 1967 Ali (considering current HWs) would have Usyk and Fury, but no more than 5%.

Yes, it's amazing how some people even now cannot get into their heads just how difficult that Muhammad Ali was to fight against.

They see his opponents as flat footed, wild, clumsy and slow without wondering too hard why this might be so. Having never seen it previously or ever again amongst the heavyweights, is simply no excuse. Ali was not the only example of this in boxing history, there were others, but not at heavyweight.

Sugar Ray Leonard at his best, made luckless opponents such as Dave 'boy' Green look similar to Ali's opponents, must be the closest. Even all time greats like Hagler and Duran looked a little earthbound. But this was mainly at WW (and MW/SMW).

There were others too, Naseem Hamed, Errol Graham, Mark Breland (esp in the amateurs), and Pacquiao in his better days, and no doubt others too.

However, nothing like Ali 66/67 was seen at heavyweight before or since.

You can't teach that kind of talent, and no one even tries.

Ghost Town Ghost · Post by **Ghost Town Ghost** » 15 Jun 2020, 16:07

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 13:47 #1, pushes Liston to #2.

Yep

ValMar · Post by **ValMar** » 15 Jun 2020, 16:13

Thomastearns wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 16:01
ValMar wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 15:43 Ali (1967 version) is the best HW ever. This is my opinion, and there is no way to change my mind.
The best chances against 1967 Ali (considering current HWs) would have Usyk and Fury, but no more than 5%.
Yes, it's amazing how some people even now cannot get into their heads just how difficult that Muhammad Ali was to fight against.

They see his opponents as flat footed, wild, clumsy and slow without wondering too hard why this might be so. Having never seen it previously or ever again amongst the heavyweights, is simply no excuse. Ali was not the only example of this in boxing history, there were others, but not at heavyweight.

Sugar Ray Leonard at his best, made luckless opponents such as Dave 'boy' Green look similar to Ali's opponents, must be the closest. Even all time greats like Hagler and Duran looked a little earthbound. But this was mainly at WW (and MW/SMW).

There were others too, Naseem Hamed, Errol Graham, Mark Breland (esp in the amateurs), and Pacquiao in his better days, and no doubt others too.

However, nothing like Ali 66/67 was seen at heavyweight before or since.

You can't teach that kind of talent, and no one even tries.

oogiebe · Post by **oogiebe** » 15 Jun 2020, 17:13

Whomever voted is the lone voter not picking Ali as #1, come forth and show yerself. Ali is the greatest ever. The man found ways to win that at the time were so unexpected and so brilliant. His raw skills (gifts) in the sixties were just magnificent. His ring IQ is unmatched.

oogiebe · Post by **oogiebe** » 15 Jun 2020, 17:14

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 13:59 So somebody thinks there are 8 better heavies of this weak batch? I'd love to see the names.

I'd love to see the poster's name, although I have my suspects.

Onetimeonly · Post by **Onetimeonly** » 15 Jun 2020, 18:09

oogiebe wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 17:14
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 13:59 So somebody thinks there are 8 better heavies of this weak batch? I'd love to see the names.
I'd love to see the poster's name, although I have my suspects.

Thatcher!

margaret thatcher · Post by **margaret thatcher** » 15 Jun 2020, 18:32

Nah, Moo is the HW GOAT

A way better fighter than Liston and the votes reflect that. Alp won't have to have a hissy fit

Onetimeonly · Post by **Onetimeonly** » 15 Jun 2020, 18:41

You're not opposed to stirring the occasional pot.

margaret thatcher · Post by **margaret thatcher** » 15 Jun 2020, 18:41

True

Tony1244 · Post by **Tony1244** » 15 Jun 2020, 19:08

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 13:59 So somebody thinks there are 8 better heavies of this weak batch? I'd love to see the names.

Ruiz and Galento are fatter and Willard and Canera are taller, so there's four.

margaret thatcher · Post by **margaret thatcher** » 15 Jun 2020, 19:15

Hughie Fury is like a taller, longer, heavier Ali

gilgamesh · Post by **gilgamesh** » 15 Jun 2020, 19:20

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 19:15 Hughie Fury is like a taller, longer, heavier Ali

He definitely has Ali beat when it comes to body acne.

Tony1244 · Post by **Tony1244** » 15 Jun 2020, 19:27

Hughie Fury does have a similar style to Ali. Joyce has a similar style to Foreman. Now for the understatement of the last 2 centuries, they are just not as good.

Ali is #1. He is the best combination of 1) hand speed 2) foot speed 3) Jab 4) Chin 5) Determination. Underrated, but not excellent power. First guy to stop Liston, Bonavena, and Lyle. Power couldn't have been too bad.