Looks like Tiozzo's days of sitting on his arse have set up a WBA interim title fight between Branco and Manny Siaca.
Branco will be 40 years old days after the fight is to take place (July 27). Two years ago I would have said Branco in a heartbeat, as I think Siaca is trash tbh.
However, since the Ulrich KO Branco has been fighting stiffs in his backyard in 6 rounders. Not many would call him a top contender anymore at 175, so I think the 30 year old Siaca has a good chance to beat the Italian.
Thoughts?
Old Man Branco Going for Interim Title
I have to thank you again for that DVD with Branco-Tiozzo on it. At first I was like "why is this on here..." but it turned out to be a VERY entertaining fight. Imo Tiozzo edged it, but it can be argued for Branco, and a draw wouldve been fair as well. I thought Tiozzo was gone twice in that fight, but he showed heart and chin in staying up (for the most part :) ) and coming back. On the other hand, it looked like Branco was walking on ice for the entire last three minutes of the fight.viciousmaussa wrote:I go for Siaca. ppl thnk he's useless for being shut out by Kessler. But they forget he beat Mundine which is no small thing. Branco is a tricky bugger, as he proved to a rejuvenated Tiozzo. Not that Tiozzo is rejuvenated anymore. I bet he's not been out of his restaurant.
Good stuff.
I agree, a win for Branco would raise my eyebrows for sure. He's got some longevity to his career, but is it of the same level as Hopkins and Hill?
Funny thing is that Branco's as much a brawler as he is a boxer. Hopkins and Hill were (for the most part) defensive wizards in the later stages of their careers.
Siaca wins fairly effortlessly. People underrate Siaca hugely. Remember Sica beat Mundine in Australia. We just saw Green get run over by same Mundine and Green had taken both Beyer and Lucas to school.
Furthermore Siaca won the WBA belt in France but was cheated. Then he beats Mitchell once and is ahead on the cards in the other when the ref steps in and stops the fight in favor of Mitchell in a situation where Siaca isn't even in trouble. In reality Siaca has won 4 out of his 5 title fight on foreign soil and with a stronger promotoer Siaca would have been a long reigning champ.
Siaca is the Baldomir of LH.
Furthermore Siaca won the WBA belt in France but was cheated. Then he beats Mitchell once and is ahead on the cards in the other when the ref steps in and stops the fight in favor of Mitchell in a situation where Siaca isn't even in trouble. In reality Siaca has won 4 out of his 5 title fight on foreign soil and with a stronger promotoer Siaca would have been a long reigning champ.
Siaca is the Baldomir of LH.
Wasn't he promoted by DKP at one point? At least back when he was fighting Byron Mitchell?Deram wrote:Siaca wins fairly effortlessly. People underrate Siaca hugely. Remember Sica beat Mundine in Australia. We just saw Green get run over by same Mundine and Green had taken both Beyer and Lucas to school.
Furthermore Siaca won the WBA belt in France but was cheated. Then he beats Mitchell once and is ahead on the cards in the other when the ref steps in and stops the fight in favor of Mitchell in a situation where Siaca isn't even in trouble. In reality Siaca has won 4 out of his 5 title fight on foreign soil and with a stronger promotoer Siaca would have been a long reigning champ.
Siaca is the Baldomir of LH.
Zhuge wrote:Wasn't he promoted by DKP at one point? At least back when he was fighting Byron Mitchell?Deram wrote:Siaca wins fairly effortlessly. People underrate Siaca hugely. Remember Sica beat Mundine in Australia. We just saw Green get run over by same Mundine and Green had taken both Beyer and Lucas to school.
Furthermore Siaca won the WBA belt in France but was cheated. Then he beats Mitchell once and is ahead on the cards in the other when the ref steps in and stops the fight in favor of Mitchell in a situation where Siaca isn't even in trouble. In reality Siaca has won 4 out of his 5 title fight on foreign soil and with a stronger promotoer Siaca would have been a long reigning champ.
Siaca is the Baldomir of LH.
He was a King fighter, apparently!
Re: Old Man Branco Going for Interim Title
branco was AT LEAST as shot as roy jones jr when he lost to ulrich at age 37 & has been going further downhill since!! but siaca is no great shakes either!!Axe wrote:Looks like Tiozzo's days of sitting on his arse have set up a WBA interim title fight between Branco and Manny Siaca.
Branco will be 40 years old days after the fight is to take place (July 27). Two years ago I would have said Branco in a heartbeat, as I think Siaca is trash tbh.
However, since the Ulrich KO Branco has been fighting stiffs in his backyard in 6 rounders. Not many would call him a top contender anymore at 175, so I think the 30 year old Siaca has a good chance to beat the Italian.
Thoughts?
Re: Old Man Branco Going for Interim Title
I notice youre a bit of an Ulrich hater. Dont like German fighters? Thats ok, but refrain from forcing your bias onto others, thank you.shoutout2u wrote:branco was AT LEAST as shot as roy jones jr when he lost to ulrich at age 37 & has been going further downhill since!! but siaca is no great shakes either!!Axe wrote:Looks like Tiozzo's days of sitting on his arse have set up a WBA interim title fight between Branco and Manny Siaca.
Branco will be 40 years old days after the fight is to take place (July 27). Two years ago I would have said Branco in a heartbeat, as I think Siaca is trash tbh.
However, since the Ulrich KO Branco has been fighting stiffs in his backyard in 6 rounders. Not many would call him a top contender anymore at 175, so I think the 30 year old Siaca has a good chance to beat the Italian.
Thoughts?
As to youre comment, its quite ignorant to say that Branco was as shot as Roy Jones. Clearly youve never seen the man fight. Im betting Branco right now would KO Jones, despite being shot himself.
Re: Old Man Branco Going for Interim Title
actually i like alot of the younger german fighters (sturm, zbik, tajbert), but i do think ulrich is overrated!Axe wrote:I notice youre a bit of an Ulrich hater. Dont like German fighters? Thats ok, but refrain from forcing your bias onto others, thank you.shoutout2u wrote:branco was AT LEAST as shot as roy jones jr when he lost to ulrich at age 37 & has been going further downhill since!! but siaca is no great shakes either!!Axe wrote:Looks like Tiozzo's days of sitting on his arse have set up a WBA interim title fight between Branco and Manny Siaca.
Branco will be 40 years old days after the fight is to take place (July 27). Two years ago I would have said Branco in a heartbeat, as I think Siaca is trash tbh.
However, since the Ulrich KO Branco has been fighting stiffs in his backyard in 6 rounders. Not many would call him a top contender anymore at 175, so I think the 30 year old Siaca has a good chance to beat the Italian.
Thoughts?
As to youre comment, its quite ignorant to say that Branco was as shot as Roy Jones. Clearly youve never seen the man fight. Im betting Branco right now would KO Jones, despite being shot himself.
but more importantly, i'm glad (and not surprised) to see you went for the bait---the roy jones bait, that is!! IMO roy jones is not THAT far gone (no great shame in losing to tarver & johnson), but i knew eurocentric jones-haters would take that as the ULTIMATE INSULT!! i think the upcoming ajamu-jones fight will tell us alot about roy's current state...
even you must admit badi ajamu is WAY BETTER than the sorry scrubs the bottom-feeding branco has stooped to since losing to ulrich...if RJJ manages to lose to ajamu & silvio manages to beat the politically-connected but limited siaca, then maybe we can entertain your outrageous notion that even now the faded, slow, relatively one-dimensional 40-year-old branco would KO the faded but still gifted RJJ...in fact at no point in silvio's potential "italian HOF" career could he have beaten the much quicker international HOF-bound jones!!
i freely admit to my north american bias & hope you will own your eurocentric bias as well!!
Re: Old Man Branco Going for Interim Title
Glad to see you admit to being biased. I on the other hand will do no such thing.shoutout2u wrote:actually i like alot of the younger german fighters (sturm, zbik, tajbert), but i do think ulrich is overrated!Axe wrote:I notice youre a bit of an Ulrich hater. Dont like German fighters? Thats ok, but refrain from forcing your bias onto others, thank you.shoutout2u wrote: branco was AT LEAST as shot as roy jones jr when he lost to ulrich at age 37 & has been going further downhill since!! but siaca is no great shakes either!!
As to youre comment, its quite ignorant to say that Branco was as shot as Roy Jones. Clearly youve never seen the man fight. Im betting Branco right now would KO Jones, despite being shot himself.
but more importantly, i'm glad (and not surprised) to see you went for the bait---the roy jones bait, that is!! IMO roy jones is not THAT far gone (no great shame in losing to tarver & johnson), but i knew eurocentric jones-haters would take that as the ULTIMATE INSULT!! i think the upcoming ajamu-jones fight will tell us alot about roy's current state...
even you must admit badi ajamu is WAY BETTER than the sorry scrubs the bottom-feeding branco has stooped to since losing to ulrich...if RJJ manages to lose to ajamu & silvio manages to beat the politically-connected but limited siaca, then maybe we can entertain your outrageous notion that even now the faded, slow, relatively one-dimensional 40-year-old branco would KO the faded but still gifted RJJ...in fact at no point in silvio's potential "italian HOF" career could he have beaten the much quicker international HOF-bound jones!!
i freely admit to my north american bias & hope you will own your eurocentric bias as well!!
Please. Abracadaju is terrible. He is better than the fighters that Branco is fighting, but that is because A) Branco is shot now and B) Roy is equally shot, if not more.
Branco has taken more punishmnet over his career than Jones, culminating in a very tough fight with a young gun in Ulrich who ultimately knocked his head off after a spirited fight.
Branco WAS talented, even at the advanced age of 37. In fact, due to his very brief amateur career, he peaked in his mid thirties, when he finally had enough boxing experience. At 36/37 he was absolutely dominating and KOing Sahnoune and going 50-50 with a 34 year old rejuvenated Tiozzo.
Roy, at the same age, got absolutely BATTERED from pillar to post FOR EVERY ROUND and ultimately KOed AGAINST A GUY BRANCO BEAT.
Branco was always considered a guy who had good longevity, but the Ulrich KO will have ended it imo. Still, he lasted longer at his (considerably lower) skill level than Jones did at his lofty one.
And as for taking the "Roy can still do well" comment as an insult exposing eurocentric bias, I have no clue what nest youve fallen from, but fact is even Roy's longest standing fans will admit that Roy is FAR, FAR GONE indeed. Are they eurocentrically biased too?
Re: Old Man Branco Going for Interim Title
i stand by my point that at no time in their respective careers could branco have beaten RJJ! i hope you didnt mean to imply that in 2000, when branco beat johnson, that he would have had ANY chance of beating a vintage jones, who was still at the top of his game! johnson has aged far more gracefully than just about anyone in boxing & many would argue that he has found his best weight at 175...Axe wrote:Glad to see you admit to being biased. I on the other hand will do no such thing.shoutout2u wrote:actually i like alot of the younger german fighters (sturm, zbik, tajbert), but i do think ulrich is overrated!Axe wrote: I notice youre a bit of an Ulrich hater. Dont like German fighters? Thats ok, but refrain from forcing your bias onto others, thank you.
As to youre comment, its quite ignorant to say that Branco was as shot as Roy Jones. Clearly youve never seen the man fight. Im betting Branco right now would KO Jones, despite being shot himself.
but more importantly, i'm glad (and not surprised) to see you went for the bait---the roy jones bait, that is!! IMO roy jones is not THAT far gone (no great shame in losing to tarver & johnson), but i knew eurocentric jones-haters would take that as the ULTIMATE INSULT!! i think the upcoming ajamu-jones fight will tell us alot about roy's current state...
even you must admit badi ajamu is WAY BETTER than the sorry scrubs the bottom-feeding branco has stooped to since losing to ulrich...if RJJ manages to lose to ajamu & silvio manages to beat the politically-connected but limited siaca, then maybe we can entertain your outrageous notion that even now the faded, slow, relatively one-dimensional 40-year-old branco would KO the faded but still gifted RJJ...in fact at no point in silvio's potential "italian HOF" career could he have beaten the much quicker international HOF-bound jones!!
i freely admit to my north american bias & hope you will own your eurocentric bias as well!!
Please. Abracadaju is terrible. He is better than the fighters that Branco is fighting, but that is because A) Branco is shot now and B) Roy is equally shot, if not more.
Branco has taken more punishmnet over his career than Jones, culminating in a very tough fight with a young gun in Ulrich who ultimately knocked his head off after a spirited fight.
Branco WAS talented, even at the advanced age of 37. In fact, due to his very brief amateur career, he peaked in his mid thirties, when he finally had enough boxing experience. At 36/37 he was absolutely dominating and KOing Sahnoune and going 50-50 with a 34 year old rejuvenated Tiozzo.
Roy, at the same age, got absolutely BATTERED from pillar to post FOR EVERY ROUND and ultimately KOed AGAINST A GUY BRANCO BEAT.
Branco was always considered a guy who had good longevity, but the Ulrich KO will have ended it imo. Still, he lasted longer at his (considerably lower) skill level than Jones did at his lofty one.
And as for taking the "Roy can still do well" comment as an insult exposing eurocentric bias, I have no clue what nest youve fallen from, but fact is even Roy's longest standing fans will admit that Roy is FAR, FAR GONE indeed. Are they eurocentrically biased too?
by eurocentric bias, i dont mean that CONSCIOUSLY dislike american or any other non-euro boxers, but humans are very subjective & the mind tends to filter & skewer the input in a way that makes everyone biased in one way or another...to claim objectivity in sports is a ridiculous notion & i believe those folks who claim they are totally objective & unbiased are only lying to themselves!! we ALL have our favorites in sports, music, politics, etc & to feign objectivity is intellectually dishonest!!
case in point is that you seem to consider mehdi sahnoune world class, while i would consider him a good euro prospect who, despite his win over limited bruno girard hasnt really done much beyond the regional (european) level...as for the "rejuvenated" tiozzo, you cant consider anything after his 1st-round demolition by virgil hill to be the same caliber of fighter he was in his 20s...in fact tiozzo's only SIGNIFICANT wins after the hill debacle were the ones over branco & a badly faded michalczewski whose fistic attrition was very quick & thorough!! so when i say you have a eurocentric bias i am just referring to your natural perspective that because someone beats well-known euros, that somehow brings fistic equivalency on the world scene with roy jones! sure roy jones is well past his peak but i say a 50% roy jones beats a 80-90% branco at any point in their careers...the previously stated exception being as i said that if branco can beat siaca next month & roy loses to ajamu, then we will have finally found a point in their respective careers when branco would for the first time ever have a good chance to beat jones!! their upcoming july bouts will give us a good measure of where they both are now, but unless the forementioned july scenario transpires, there has yet to be a time when branco would beat roy...if you disagree with THAT point i challenge you to give me a year before july 2006 when branco could have beaten roy...2003? 2000? whenever?
Re: Old Man Branco Going for Interim Title
You pointed out that Branco was as shot himself as Roy was at age 37. So we arent talking about a particular year, as Branco is 3 years older than Jones. Were talking about putting a 2003 Branco (37 y/o) in with Jones today (37 y/o).shoutout2u wrote:i stand by my point that at no time in their respective careers could branco have beaten RJJ! i hope you didnt mean to imply that in 2000, when branco beat johnson, that he would have had ANY chance of beating a vintage jones, who was still at the top of his game! johnson has aged far more gracefully than just about anyone in boxing & many would argue that he has found his best weight at 175...Axe wrote:Glad to see you admit to being biased. I on the other hand will do no such thing.shoutout2u wrote: actually i like alot of the younger german fighters (sturm, zbik, tajbert), but i do think ulrich is overrated!
but more importantly, i'm glad (and not surprised) to see you went for the bait---the roy jones bait, that is!! IMO roy jones is not THAT far gone (no great shame in losing to tarver & johnson), but i knew eurocentric jones-haters would take that as the ULTIMATE INSULT!! i think the upcoming ajamu-jones fight will tell us alot about roy's current state...
even you must admit badi ajamu is WAY BETTER than the sorry scrubs the bottom-feeding branco has stooped to since losing to ulrich...if RJJ manages to lose to ajamu & silvio manages to beat the politically-connected but limited siaca, then maybe we can entertain your outrageous notion that even now the faded, slow, relatively one-dimensional 40-year-old branco would KO the faded but still gifted RJJ...in fact at no point in silvio's potential "italian HOF" career could he have beaten the much quicker international HOF-bound jones!!
i freely admit to my north american bias & hope you will own your eurocentric bias as well!!
Please. Abracadaju is terrible. He is better than the fighters that Branco is fighting, but that is because A) Branco is shot now and B) Roy is equally shot, if not more.
Branco has taken more punishmnet over his career than Jones, culminating in a very tough fight with a young gun in Ulrich who ultimately knocked his head off after a spirited fight.
Branco WAS talented, even at the advanced age of 37. In fact, due to his very brief amateur career, he peaked in his mid thirties, when he finally had enough boxing experience. At 36/37 he was absolutely dominating and KOing Sahnoune and going 50-50 with a 34 year old rejuvenated Tiozzo.
Roy, at the same age, got absolutely BATTERED from pillar to post FOR EVERY ROUND and ultimately KOed AGAINST A GUY BRANCO BEAT.
Branco was always considered a guy who had good longevity, but the Ulrich KO will have ended it imo. Still, he lasted longer at his (considerably lower) skill level than Jones did at his lofty one.
And as for taking the "Roy can still do well" comment as an insult exposing eurocentric bias, I have no clue what nest youve fallen from, but fact is even Roy's longest standing fans will admit that Roy is FAR, FAR GONE indeed. Are they eurocentrically biased too?
by eurocentric bias, i dont mean that CONSCIOUSLY dislike american or any other non-euro boxers, but humans are very subjective & the mind tends to filter & skewer the input in a way that makes everyone biased in one way or another...to claim objectivity in sports is a ridiculous notion & i believe those folks who claim they are totally objective & unbiased are only lying to themselves!! we ALL have our favorites in sports, music, politics, etc & to feign objectivity is intellectually dishonest!!
case in point is that you seem to consider mehdi sahnoune world class, while i would consider him a good euro prospect who, despite his win over limited bruno girard hasnt really done much beyond the regional (european) level...as for the "rejuvenated" tiozzo, you cant consider anything after his 1st-round demolition by virgil hill to be the same caliber of fighter he was in his 20s...in fact tiozzo's only SIGNIFICANT wins after the hill debacle were the ones over branco & a badly faded michalczewski whose fistic attrition was very quick & thorough!! so when i say you have a eurocentric bias i am just referring to your natural perspective that because someone beats well-known euros, that somehow brings fistic equivalency on the world scene with roy jones! sure roy jones is well past his peak but i say a 50% roy jones beats a 80-90% branco at any point in their careers...the previously stated exception being as i said that if branco can beat siaca next month & roy loses to ajamu, then we will have finally found a point in their respective careers when branco would for the first time ever have a good chance to beat jones!! their upcoming july bouts will give us a good measure of where they both are now, but unless the forementioned july scenario transpires, there has yet to be a time when branco would beat roy...if you disagree with THAT point i challenge you to give me a year before july 2006 when branco could have beaten roy...2003? 2000? whenever?
I am of the opinion that Branco wins by KO. Would you agree or disagree?
Dont try to talk about a universal lack of absolute objectivity now, Mr. "Im biased you know".
Only kidding.
As to Sahnoune he is no world beater. He is a natural SMW, just like Roy Jones, but he did beat Girard, who, if you remember correctly, beat Del Valle, one of Jones' biggest W's at 175. IF Sahnoune is just a "good prospect on the Euro level", then now you (my American based friend) have to admit that Del Valle is just "a good prospect on the eastern-coast-of-the-USA level".
Re: Old Man Branco Going for Interim Title
if RJJ doesnt have enuf left to beat ajamu NOW i think a good argument could be meade for branco at 37 beating him, but if roy is 50-60% of his peak i think he beats ajamu & branco...even a timid RJJ has enuf speed to pile up sufficient points to outpoint slower fighters like that IMO!! he was clearly afraid of tarver after the earlier KO but i think he will be much busier against someone who is not "in his head" the way tarver is/was!!Axe wrote:You pointed out that Branco was as shot himself as Roy was at age 37. So we arent talking about a particular year, as Branco is 3 years older than Jones. Were talking about putting a 2003 Branco (37 y/o) in with Jones today (37 y/o).shoutout2u wrote:i stand by my point that at no time in their respective careers could branco have beaten RJJ! i hope you didnt mean to imply that in 2000, when branco beat johnson, that he would have had ANY chance of beating a vintage jones, who was still at the top of his game! johnson has aged far more gracefully than just about anyone in boxing & many would argue that he has found his best weight at 175...Axe wrote: Glad to see you admit to being biased. I on the other hand will do no such thing.
Please. Abracadaju is terrible. He is better than the fighters that Branco is fighting, but that is because A) Branco is shot now and B) Roy is equally shot, if not more.
Branco has taken more punishmnet over his career than Jones, culminating in a very tough fight with a young gun in Ulrich who ultimately knocked his head off after a spirited fight.
Branco WAS talented, even at the advanced age of 37. In fact, due to his very brief amateur career, he peaked in his mid thirties, when he finally had enough boxing experience. At 36/37 he was absolutely dominating and KOing Sahnoune and going 50-50 with a 34 year old rejuvenated Tiozzo.
Roy, at the same age, got absolutely BATTERED from pillar to post FOR EVERY ROUND and ultimately KOed AGAINST A GUY BRANCO BEAT.
Branco was always considered a guy who had good longevity, but the Ulrich KO will have ended it imo. Still, he lasted longer at his (considerably lower) skill level than Jones did at his lofty one.
And as for taking the "Roy can still do well" comment as an insult exposing eurocentric bias, I have no clue what nest youve fallen from, but fact is even Roy's longest standing fans will admit that Roy is FAR, FAR GONE indeed. Are they eurocentrically biased too?
by eurocentric bias, i dont mean that CONSCIOUSLY dislike american or any other non-euro boxers, but humans are very subjective & the mind tends to filter & skewer the input in a way that makes everyone biased in one way or another...to claim objectivity in sports is a ridiculous notion & i believe those folks who claim they are totally objective & unbiased are only lying to themselves!! we ALL have our favorites in sports, music, politics, etc & to feign objectivity is intellectually dishonest!!
case in point is that you seem to consider mehdi sahnoune world class, while i would consider him a good euro prospect who, despite his win over limited bruno girard hasnt really done much beyond the regional (european) level...as for the "rejuvenated" tiozzo, you cant consider anything after his 1st-round demolition by virgil hill to be the same caliber of fighter he was in his 20s...in fact tiozzo's only SIGNIFICANT wins after the hill debacle were the ones over branco & a badly faded michalczewski whose fistic attrition was very quick & thorough!! so when i say you have a eurocentric bias i am just referring to your natural perspective that because someone beats well-known euros, that somehow brings fistic equivalency on the world scene with roy jones! sure roy jones is well past his peak but i say a 50% roy jones beats a 80-90% branco at any point in their careers...the previously stated exception being as i said that if branco can beat siaca next month & roy loses to ajamu, then we will have finally found a point in their respective careers when branco would for the first time ever have a good chance to beat jones!! their upcoming july bouts will give us a good measure of where they both are now, but unless the forementioned july scenario transpires, there has yet to be a time when branco would beat roy...if you disagree with THAT point i challenge you to give me a year before july 2006 when branco could have beaten roy...2003? 2000? whenever?
I am of the opinion that Branco wins by KO. Would you agree or disagree?
Dont try to talk about a universal lack of absolute objectivity now, Mr. "Im biased you know".
Only kidding.
As to Sahnoune he is no world beater. He is a natural SMW, just like Roy Jones, but he did beat Girard, who, if you remember correctly, beat Del Valle, one of Jones' biggest W's at 175. IF Sahnoune is just a "good prospect on the Euro level", then now you (my American based friend) have to admit that Del Valle is just "a good prospect on the eastern-coast-of-the-USA level".
as for lou del valle, i would definitely disagree that he is one of RJJ's biggest wins...the reason lou got what little recognition he did was for a fluke, flash knockdown (a la hagler-roldan) in a fight otherwise dominated by jones!! among all roy's fights in the past 10 years, i would put only frazier, hall & kelly BELOW del valle in terms of significance...i would put lou on about par with grant & telesco & BELOW roy's more significant wins like mc callum, hill, griffin, harding, r johnson, etc....plus keep in mind that del valle was making the first defense of wba belt he won over limited dutchman eddy smulders+ the del valle that lost to girard was 4 years after RJJ dominated him!! so i definitely think lou del valle would have been VERY COMPETITIVE on the euro level & not much more---considering his biggest win was vs smulders & most revealing loss (plus draw) was vs girard!!
Re: Old Man Branco Going for Interim Title
Well, Johnson was a hell of a lot slower than him, but he simply didnt get out of Roy's face, which is how he wore Jones down and eventually KOed him.shoutout2u wrote:if RJJ doesnt have enuf left to beat ajamu NOW i think a good argument could be meade for branco at 37 beating him, but if roy is 50-60% of his peak i think he beats ajamu & branco...even a timid RJJ has enuf speed to pile up sufficient points to outpoint slower fighters like that IMO!! he was clearly afraid of tarver after the earlier KO but i think he will be much busier against someone who is not "in his head" the way tarver is/was!!
as for lou del valle, i would definitely disagree that he is one of RJJ's biggest wins...the reason lou got what little recognition he did was for a fluke, flash knockdown (a la hagler-roldan) in a fight otherwise dominated by jones!! among all roy's fights in the past 10 years, i would put only frazier, hall & kelly BELOW del valle in terms of significance...i would put lou on about par with grant & telesco & BELOW roy's more significant wins like mc callum, hill, griffin, harding, r johnson, etc....plus keep in mind that del valle was making the first defense of wba belt he won over limited dutchman eddy smulders+ the del valle that lost to girard was 4 years after RJJ dominated him!! so i definitely think lou del valle would have been VERY COMPETITIVE on the euro level & not much more---considering his biggest win was vs smulders & most revealing loss (plus draw) was vs girard!!
Branco can pressure like that too, and has more pop than Johnson imo, and only a bit worse gas tank. This is the Branco of 3 years ago of course, not today's shot 40 year old version.
As to Del Valle, Im getting disappointed with you now, shoutout2u. Sure, Griffin was more significant, but Telesco? 40 year old McCallum? No chance.
Teleco was a pretender, Lou was a contender. Telesco lost a trilogy to Ernest "M-16" Mateen ffs!
And McCallum wasnt quite done at 40, but very close.
Lou would rank far ahead of most of Jones' opposition at 175. He would be ahead of R Johnson as well, because Johnson after all was just a fat middleweight who was past his best days. I would think you would be able to tell the American conteders apart at least! Comon now mate.
Re: Old Man Branco Going for Interim Title
Axe wrote:Lou would rank far ahead of most of Jones' opposition at 175. He would be ahead of R Johnson as well, because Johnson after all was just a fat middleweight who was past his best days. I would think you would be able to tell the American conteders apart at least! Comon now mate.
Johnson was the IBF Champion in a title unification fight with a “peak” Jones; 
That’s the reason his loss was so one sided. He later lost a split decision to a peak Tarver.
To say he was a fat middleweight past his best days exposes your own ignorance.
Re: Old Man Branco Going for Interim Title
Oh, come on. Johnson had been away from boxing two years, shock KO'd Guthrie, and beat Euro level Klemetson. The Johnson who showed up for Jones and Tarver was nowhere near the lean, slick, quick guy that gave Toney hell - at that age and weight he was no longer up to fighting the elite.Blue wrote:Axe wrote:Lou would rank far ahead of most of Jones' opposition at 175. He would be ahead of R Johnson as well, because Johnson after all was just a fat middleweight who was past his best days. I would think you would be able to tell the American conteders apart at least! Comon now mate.
That’s the reason his loss was so one sided. He later lost a split decision to a peak Tarver.
To say he was a fat middleweight past his best days exposes your own ignorance.
Re: Old Man Branco Going for Interim Title
you are arguing with the wrong guy on his one, homie!! i wrote for flash/boxing udate magazine from 1993-2005, specifically on prospects, so i saw most of these guys we are talking about coming up from novices to top 10ers...Axe wrote: As to Del Valle, Im getting disappointed with you now, shoutout2u. Sure, Griffin was more significant, but Telesco? 40 year old McCallum? No chance.
Teleco was a pretender, Lou was a contender. Telesco lost a trilogy to Ernest "M-16" Mateen ffs!
And McCallum wasnt quite done at 40, but very close.
Lou would rank far ahead of most of Jones' opposition at 175. He would be ahead of R Johnson as well, because Johnson after all was just a fat middleweight who was past his best days. I would think you would be able to tell the American conteders apart at least! Comon now mate.
i originally said del valle was below reggie johnson & ON PAR with telesco!! since it has been awhile, i re-examined all their respective records (wish my memory was good enuf to prevent me from having to do that...) and am changing my take slightly...NOT ONLY WAS DEL VALLE FAR BELOW REGGIE JOHNSON, but actually slightly below telesco as well!!
COMPARATIVE RECORDS:
1. REGGIE JOHNSON=stayed too long at MW & after losing twice to jorge castro, he jumped directly to LH, where he won IBF title in 2nd fight...HIS ONLY LOSSES AT 175 WERE RJJ & TARVER (by split decision!!)
BIGGEST WINS:
william guthrie (unbeaten 24-0 ibf champ, tko for reggie)
ole klemetsen (33-2 euro champ, easy dec for reggie)
chris johnson (26-1-1 ex-olympian, top 10 LH when lost to reggie)
willie taylor (19-3 altho he was reggie's weakest title challenger, he is better than all but one of lou's victims)
2. DAVID TELESCO=early losses were 2 decisions to ernest mateen, unbeaten hot prospect who was NEVER THE SAME after he had his 22-bout unbeaten streak by KO from ex-champ prince charles williams. in fact telesco TKOd him later on & even then he turned out better than ALL BUT ONE of del valle's victims!
BIGGEST WINS:
frank tate (41-4 two weight world champ--160 & 175, had lost title before telesco beat him but even then much better than smulders)
julian letterlough (17-2-1 future world title challenger at 190 who barely lost title eliminator (fight of year) to julio gonzalez--fight that earned julio shot vs RJJ)
willie taylor (15-2 tough philly fighter who lost to reggie in his eventual world title challenge)
ernest mateen (23-6-1 i'll even add him since he was better than ALL BUT ONE OF DEL VALLE's VICTIMS)
3. LOU DEL VALLE=won wba title from smulders then immediately lost it in unification bout with RJJ...beat only total scrubs after that but did manage to lose & draw with bruno girard in battle for vacant wba
BIGGEST WINS:
eddy smulders (34-1 was euro champ & lost to lou in fight for vacant wba, his only world shot, then career went downhill fast)
DARREN ZENNER!!
(10-0-2 ...yes, lou's 2ND BIGGEST WIN WAS OVER a fellow unbeaten NOVICE who had drawn with 2 scrubs, but was also an east coast prospect like lou!! thanks for taking the argument onto my home turf...i scrutinized all these guys from early days on up & i had ACTUALLY FORGOTTEN how shallow del valle's 2nd-rate resume was!! obviously you didnt follow the usa LH scene TOO CLOSELY during the 90s to be making such outrageous claims on behalf of del valle to begin with!!
so i would now actually put del valle SLIGHTLY BELOW the telesco i had him on par with...DONT TAKE MY WORD ON ALL THE ABOVE...check the records for yourself, hopefully next time BEFORE you take the argument into the realm of americans who were prospects from the early 1990s on!!
Re: Old Man Branco Going for Interim Title
Pleeze,viciousmaussa wrote:Oh, come on. Johnson had been away from boxing two years, shock KO'd Guthrie, and beat Euro level Klemetson. The Johnson who showed up for Jones and Tarver was nowhere near the lean, slick, quick guy that gave Toney hell - at that age and weight he was no longer up to fighting the elite.Blue wrote:Axe wrote:Lou would rank far ahead of most of Jones' opposition at 175. He would be ahead of R Johnson as well, because Johnson after all was just a fat middleweight who was past his best days. I would think you would be able to tell the American conteders apart at least! Comon now mate.
That’s the reason his loss was so one sided. He later lost a split decision to a peak Tarver.
To say he was a fat middleweight past his best days exposes your own ignorance.
The Johnson layoff (Actually only 21 mos.) was two years previous and he was
only 31 when he came back; the IBF Champion was 33 when he fought Jones.
The fact that he only lost a split decision to a peak Tarver speaks for it’s self.
Your opinion has nothing to back it up.
If what U say is true, he would have lost to Guthrie and Klemetson.
BTW, Branco was 38 when he lost to Ulrich.
Re: Old Man Branco Going for Interim Title
Have you missed something? Klemetson and Guthrie are not at the level of Tarver and Jones. You can also throw in Chris Johnson as a decent fighter Reggie beat at light heavy. But hadn't Chris - a very promising fighter - been ruined by one Herol Graham??? Reggie, sadly, was not an A fighter at 175-pounds.Blue wrote:Pleeze,viciousmaussa wrote:Oh, come on. Johnson had been away from boxing two years, shock KO'd Guthrie, and beat Euro level Klemetson. The Johnson who showed up for Jones and Tarver was nowhere near the lean, slick, quick guy that gave Toney hell - at that age and weight he was no longer up to fighting the elite.Blue wrote:
That’s the reason his loss was so one sided. He later lost a split decision to a peak Tarver.
To say he was a fat middleweight past his best days exposes your own ignorance.
The Johnson layoff (Actually only 21 mos.) was two years previous and he was
only 31 when he came back; the IBF Champion was 33 when he fought Jones.
The fact that he only lost a split decision to a peak Tarver speaks for it’s self.
Your opinion has nothing to back it up.
If what U say is true, he would have lost to Guthrie and Klemetson.
BTW, Branco was 38 when he lost to Ulrich.
"The fact that he only lost a split decision to a peak Tarver speaks for it’s self." Watch the fight. Tarver won all but one round, when he walked onto a left that dropped him late in the fight. It was 95% dominance from Tarver.
Re: Old Man Branco Going for Interim Title
Bro, you can cut out the bold font next time, it makes for a better read.shoutout2u wrote:you are arguing with the wrong guy on his one, homie!! i wrote for flash/boxing udate magazine from 1993-2005, specifically on prospects, so i saw most of these guys we are talking about coming up from novices to top 10ers...Axe wrote: As to Del Valle, Im getting disappointed with you now, shoutout2u. Sure, Griffin was more significant, but Telesco? 40 year old McCallum? No chance.
Teleco was a pretender, Lou was a contender. Telesco lost a trilogy to Ernest "M-16" Mateen ffs!
And McCallum wasnt quite done at 40, but very close.
Lou would rank far ahead of most of Jones' opposition at 175. He would be ahead of R Johnson as well, because Johnson after all was just a fat middleweight who was past his best days. I would think you would be able to tell the American conteders apart at least! Comon now mate.
i originally said del valle was below reggie johnson & ON PAR with telesco!! since it has been awhile, i re-examined all their respective records (wish my memory was good enuf to prevent me from having to do that...) and am changing my take slightly...NOT ONLY WAS DEL VALLE FAR BELOW REGGIE JOHNSON, but actually slightly below telesco as well!!
COMPARATIVE RECORDS:
1. REGGIE JOHNSON=stayed too long at MW & after losing twice to jorge castro, he jumped directly to LH, where he won IBF title in 2nd fight...HIS ONLY LOSSES AT 175 WERE RJJ & TARVER (by split decision!!)
BIGGEST WINS:
william guthrie (unbeaten 24-0 ibf champ, tko for reggie)
ole klemetsen (33-2 euro champ, easy dec for reggie)
chris johnson (26-1-1 ex-olympian, top 10 LH when lost to reggie)
willie taylor (19-3 altho he was reggie's weakest title challenger, he is better than all but one of lou's victims)
2. DAVID TELESCO=early losses were 2 decisions to ernest mateen, unbeaten hot prospect who was NEVER THE SAME after he had his 22-bout unbeaten streak by KO from ex-champ prince charles williams. in fact telesco TKOd him later on & even then he turned out better than ALL BUT ONE of del valle's victims!
BIGGEST WINS:
frank tate (41-4 two weight world champ--160 & 175, had lost title before telesco beat him but even then much better than smulders)
julian letterlough (17-2-1 future world title challenger at 190 who barely lost title eliminator (fight of year) to julio gonzalez--fight that earned julio shot vs RJJ)
willie taylor (15-2 tough philly fighter who lost to reggie in his eventual world title challenge)
ernest mateen (23-6-1 i'll even add him since he was better than ALL BUT ONE OF DEL VALLE's VICTIMS)
3. LOU DEL VALLE=won wba title from smulders then immediately lost it in unification bout with RJJ...beat only total scrubs after that but did manage to lose & draw with bruno girard in battle for vacant wba
BIGGEST WINS:
eddy smulders (34-1 was euro champ & lost to lou in fight for vacant wba, his only world shot, then career went downhill fast)
DARREN ZENNER!!
thanks for taking the argument onto my home turf...i scrutinized all these guys from early days on up & i had ACTUALLY FORGOTTEN how shallow del valle's 2nd-rate resume was!! obviously you didnt follow the usa LH scene TOO CLOSELY during the 90s to be making such outrageous claims on behalf of del valle to begin with!!
so i would now actually put del valle SLIGHTLY BELOW the telesco i had him on par with...DONT TAKE MY WORD ON ALL THE ABOVE...check the records for yourself, hopefully next time BEFORE you take the argument into the realm of americans who were prospects from the early 1990s on!!
Alright, before I get to the great Telesco, allow me to say this.
All youve done is highlited each man's accomplishments, on paper. This has nothing to do with what kind of wins they were for Roy Jones. In Telesco's and Del Valle's cases, they were relatively in their primes (Telesco may have been getting up there a bit, and Del Valle had a bit of a layoff, but for arguments sake they were in close to prime form).
Reggie Johnson had seen far better days. Need I remind you of the Reggie Johnson who legitimately put a prime James Toney on his ass (something Roy couldnt do), and (in the eyes of many) should have won a decision over him? Yeah, that guy. He wasnt anywhere near ring against Jones. It was an older, slower, and much fatter shadow of that man. Therefore, not a career defining win at 175, sorry.
A win over a fighter like that would be like Chad Dawson right now KOing Fabrice Tiozzo...people would simply say, so what?
True, on paper, he had a far better resume than guys like Telesco and Del Valle, but that matters nothing when he wasnt close to his best, and the others were. (True, he was still a champ, so he wasnt quite shot yet, per se. Now it becomes a subjective issue of "how far past it was he really", which you can't always back up with hard, cold facts. But the facts are that he was both beyond his natural weight class and past his best, so thats where it stands.)
Now, as to the Telesco-Del Valle debate. My eyes hurt even just looking at Telesco's "resume", but Ill try to break things down for you.
Again, youre simply looking at names, without considering their relative forms coming into the fights.
Take Frank Tate for example. He was done when he fought Telesco. His pro debut was in 1984, and he fought Telesco 14 years later, and retired after that fight. Tate had not proved that he had anything left at all, in fact after he lost to Virgil Hill for the second time, he took 16 months off from boxing, and fought exclusively scrubs (well, one decent fighter in Carter, who was also considered a journeyman by then) for the remaining 3 years before meeting Telesco. Thats the sign of a shot fighter, and a man only looking for his last payday.
Now Mateen, he was always a bum. He never even beat a shadow of a nearly half decent fighter in his entire career, and yet beat the 2-0 Telesco in his pro debut and won a trilogy against him. Mateen's only decent looking win was against Billy Lewis, who was very far from decent, as he never beat anyone in the top 100 of any division, and lost to bums such as the 18-15 Troy Watson on a regular basis. And as you said, by the time Telsco finally won one against Mateen, Mateen was far past his best, having already been repeatedly stopped.
Losing 2/3 to Mateen before he even met Jones showed Telesco's true colours right off the bat; theres no way around that. And even after the loss to Jones, and tuning up, etc, he gets multiple shots, such as against Derrick Harmon, who had just been consecutively brutalized by Michalczewski and Oneil Bell (that'll beat the prime right out of you!), and still comes up short.
Who else did Telesco beat? Letterlough? Decent fighter, but also past it. He was already fluctuating around in weight and was coming directly off a brutal stoppage loss to Jirov. Not a win I would want on my record.
Willie Whoylor? Cmon man. Dido to what I said about Mateen.
Were ANY of Teleco's wins over guys who were rated in the top ten when they fought him?
No. Not by a long shot.
Del Valle beat: Eddie Smulders. 34 years old, so not prime anymore, but clearly still a top LHW, beating guys like Christophe Girard (30-1, very good win), Wallyn (23-1-1) etc just before fighting Lou and defending his EBU belt right up until vacating it to fight against Lou for DM's former title. Unlike Tate, who was 34 and in the game for 14 years--and adding to that an extensive amateur background--Smulders was only a pro for 8 years, and was still beating decent fighters up to his fight with Lou.
Now, unlike any of Telesco's victims, Smulders was a top ten LHW. That right there takes precedence over anything on Telesco's resume. But you may have msised it, as it occured outside of the USA.
The win over Darren Zenner was good, Zenner actually had 2 more fights than Del Valle and was an unbeaten contender as well. The problem with Zenner of course was that he was only 21 years old and still frequently making supermiddlweight, unlike when he fought Michalczewski at 26 and was a full blown LHW. But still, a decent win.
So who beat the better fighters? Well, neither man really lit up the boxing world, but it was Del Valle, by virtue of his win over Smulders. He beat a top ten guy, Telesco never did, end of story.
Now, basing it all on one win is a little shallow, so we'll go a bit further. Del Valle scored (yes, scored) a draw against another solid guy in Bruno Girard (Christophe's younger bro), a former and future world champion, in Girard's home town. That is yet another accomlishment that overshadows anything David Telesco ever did. Girard would reign for several defences after "beating" Del Valle in the rematch by a SD (again, in Girard's hometown).
Still not convinced? Consider this: Lou Del Valle was a world champion, Telesco never was.
Thats yet another very clear line seperating Davie boy from Lou.
Lastly, lets see how each fighter fared in defeat, as this also has an effect on boxing rankings.
Telesco wasnt just shut out on all the cards against Jones, he actually lost 120-106 on one of them.
Del Valle lost by margins of 109-118 109-119 109-118. He managed to win a round, and far more importantly, put a prime Roy Jones on his ass. Big difference there.
In defeat, against other fighters: havent seen Telesco's losses to Mateen, but they speak for themselves. Other than that, he drew with 19-9-1 Ray Berry
and got his ears outboxed by Harmon. Now he only lost an SD to Harmon, but if you saw the fight, you'd remember Teddy Atlas' take on the situation; Atlas was about to kick up a storm when they announced Telesco's name on one of the scorecards. That was a UD win for Harmon if Ive ever seen one. Remember, this was a shot Harmon we're talking about here, too...furthermore, Telesco was then stopped by Julio Gonzalez (not a puncher!) and comprehensively outboxed by Eric Harding in Harding's first fight back from a 2 year layoff!In comparison, Del Valle lost a shady looking SD to Girard in the Frenchman's hometown, and lost a SD to a prime Virgil Hill.
In that fight against Hill, he dropped the champion and made it a very close, almost controversial, affair. Again, this was yet another thing that Telesco was never able to do against a world class fighter anywhere near his best. So Del Valle has the upper hand again, for the fourth time.
Now, I respect the opinions of anyone who was following the sport for as long as you have, but you may have remembered the hype that Telesco received and the (non-existent) hype that Del Valle received, and mistakenly converted this into a measure of their competence. While its occasionally a good guideline, boxing is full of circumstances where hype falls short in the face of substance, and Telesco's status when he fought Jones, as well as his career, is certainly just hype when stacked up against Lou's respective credentials.
Re: Old Man Branco Going for Interim Title
Comon now Blue, I know youre upset with me and vicious for disagreeing with youre (somewhat absurdBlue wrote:
That’s the reason his loss was so one sided. He later lost a split decision to a peak Tarver.
To say he was a fat middleweight past his best days exposes your own ignorance.
) rating system of current LHWs, but can't we still be friends? It wasnt anything personal, me and vicious are just LHW gurus and have been following the division for years, so we are a bit picky when it comes to ratings.You did throw them together in a hurry, anyway.
What do you say buddy? :)
Anyway, man is it getting late, Im done for the night guys, later.
(PS I checked his record and Branco was 37 against Ulrich, not that it really matters.)
exactly...we have both wasted far too much time debating trivia here & your long-winded rant on johnson, telesco, mateen, et al, actually lured me into comparative records again long enuf to find out mateen is way better than you give him credit for & i have a hunch you've never seen him or many of the other lesser-known guys we are talking about here!!Axe wrote:Did I just write all that? I feel like I just wrote an essay describing how much greater Owen Beck is than Billy Zumbrun.
mateen's biggest wins were over DRAKE THADZI (beat james toney & several other top-notch LHs) and johnny mclain (good prosepect who handed klemetsen early KO loss)...billy lewis never even enters in to the equation!!
and there is NO WAY you can sell reggie johnson short at LH by trying to play him off as a fat MW...not only was his convincing win over top 10 canadian/jamaican chris johnson (1992 OG siver medalist) way more significance than lou's win over smulder's, but his devastating KO of unbeaten champs william guthrie (24-0 former amateur star who barely missed 1988 OG team) was probably even more impressive than the chris johnson win!! REGGIE JOHNSON was 7-2 at LH (only losses jones & tarver), title reign far longer than del valle's & reggie would have easily beaten lou!!
you make a good case for lou over telesco & lou probably would have favored over telesco if they fought...so i will drop him down just below lou, but even so, it leaves my list of RJJ's toughest foes at 175 looking like this (based not on how they did vs roy alone, but overall career accomplishments at 175) to disprove your original point that del valle was one of RJJ's more significant wins at 175):
1. antonio tarver
2. virgil hill
3. glen johnson
4. eric harding
5. reggie johnson
6. montell griffin
7. clinton woods
8. julio gonzalez
9. mike mccallum
10. derrick harmon
11. lou del valle
12. dave telesco
13. otis grant
14. glen kelly
15. richard hall
16. richard frazier
IMO del valle not even in top 10 of RJJ's most signicant foes!!
also, to summarize our other endless argument on branco vs jones...regardless of how jones does vs ajamu & branco vs siaca---or who would win when they were both 37...bottom line is this:
RJJ makes HOF same year 1st eligible, silvio branco wont get so much as a nomination in any HOF outside europe (maybe even italy)...
BTW...we've both wasted way too much time on these now trivial discussions (i assume you also have a life offline). so FEEL FREE to have the LAST WORD on this one---I'M DONE with this topic!!