John Duddy

The Gaffer · Post by **The Gaffer** » 19 Jun 2006, 06:39

What does everyone think of him?

Looked pretty good vs Cuevas although did get caught a few times. Exciting fighter though, no wonder he sells so many tickets.

Wales · Post by **Wales** » 20 Jun 2006, 08:16

He wont be fighting Macklin in the US anytime soon as Macklin is fighting jamie Moore (at light middle) in September.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 22 Jun 2006, 15:44

No Terrence, World class is beating Micky Ward with one hand like Gatti did in the third fight. He just fought the wrong fight in fight 1 - where he was going through a transition from fighter to boxer. Surely, world class fighters are allowed to learn from their mistakes. How many fighters who went on to become all time greats lost fights they were expected to win - Joe Louis, Bernard Hopkins, Rafael Marquez, Marco Antionio Barrera - all these not world class for losing to worse fighters?

World class is beating Gaberiel Reulas.

World class is beating an excellent Tracy Harris Patterson

World class is beating Jesse James Leija

Would you like me to continue...

No, Gatti isn't an all time great in the making the DLH and Mayweather are (the only two to humilate him) but a big difference between all time great and world class.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 23 Jun 2006, 03:42

On the topic of Gatti, for me it depends how u define 'world class'.

I take it to mean a fighter who can compete on even terms against the top 5 in the world at a given weight.

For example, Howard Eastman is (or has been) in my eyes 'world class'. He is, however, a country mile from ever getting inducted in Canastota.

With this definition in mind, Gatti is undoubtedly world class.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 23 Jun 2006, 05:34

I'd have to say that Gatti is world class, but i don't think he's HOF material, i know other probably worse boxers have been voted into the HOF, but that doesn't mean i agree with them either.

Both times that Gatti has faced HOF'ers he has lost and been outclassed, in both the De La Hoya and Mayweather fights.

But that doesn't mean he isn't world class, as Gatti has proved in the Ruelas, Millett , Ward fights, Dorin Etc.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 23 Jun 2006, 05:52

World class for example is winning a world title which Gatti has done twice.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 23 Jun 2006, 06:48

What about Luis Collazo then Terrence, he certainly hung at world class.

The afformentioned Carlos Maussa gave Ricky one or two problems also.

Your saying labelling Carlos Baldomir world class is a joke, but he beat - fairly and squarely a guy who (IMO) gave Floyd Mayweather a tougher fight than Jose Luis Castillo did, and your basing Castillo as world class due to his performance vs Mayweather.

So what, former undisputed Welterweight champion Cory Spinks wasn't world class when he held the titles?

There was no mention of Judah not being world class... Sorry, former undisputed champion taking Mayweather as close as he has been.... Sorry, thats as laughable as you think people labelling Baldomir as world class is.

Of course Judah is world class, and therefore so is Baldomir.

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 23 Jun 2006, 06:59

Terence wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:World class for example is winning a world title which Gatti has done twice.
Ok so Carlos Maussau is world-class is he? In that case bang it up as a thread and lets give Ricky some respect. How many titles as Mayorga won? How easily did he get beaten by Oscar. Ali was world-class, as was Frazier, people may say Quarry, he was high-quality but lacked that extra something. If I see a fight advertised as a world-class bout I expect to see something I rarely see or sublime skills, Gatti throwing a jab and everyone jizzing themselves is not right up there for me, and I love Gatti, I have most of his fights, that is why I can see how many flaws he has.

He satisfies the criteria of Silkov, again my friend is let down by his poor graps of what something means here. I have a different understanding because I don't toss around words like 'Great' every time I watch a fight.

At Welter you have Mayweather and Hatton who are world-class, Margarito is working towards it, if Gatti beats Baldomir (who is now, by common criteria a world-class fighter, can't you see what a joke it is?) he'll lose to the first truly world-level fighter he meets.

Perspective: Floyd is bona fide world-class, as is Castillo, Floyd fought Castillo twice in tough fights which he won clearly yet struggled in, Gatti foguht Floyd and lost every second of every round, ditto for his fight with Oscar. So if he cannot hang in world class how can he be world-class?

Topper is right, he is HOF bound but that means nothing to me. He fought some good guys BUT went to war and won and lost in this way.

Bang on Terence.
People do over rate Gatti.
Fair enough he has achieved a lot in the game on the face of it,but if you look,the WBC practically 'gave' him their light welterweight title.
He is a popular fighter who fill's venues and generates cash.Hence the box off he managed to land for the title which was vacant at the time.Tszyu never lost that title in the ring so I can't really look at Gatti as the rightful WBC light-welter champ,nor can I ever see that PBF was WBC light welter champ!!!

Too much is made of his 'epic' fights with Ward.Face it Ward was a million miles from world class,and look what he done to Gatti?

I love Arturo,he has been exciting to watch over the years.He has mixed in world class circles,BUT I would'nt say he is or ever was true world class.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 23 Jun 2006, 07:17

Okay, fair argument.... still think your giving Judah a grand disservice, virtually the whole of my last post was regarding your ranking of him and your response was mentioning him once.

I'll ask again... was former undisputed world champion who gave Floyd Mayweather Junior one of the hardest fights in his pro career ever world class?

No, I used the Luis Collazo argument because it appeared that was your argument re Jose Louis Castllo (running Floyd close, is prove he is world class - your argument). You then mention that Ricky Hatton is world class, so why doesn't it stand true for Collazo?

Actually, if you want to look at a whole career - why are you so quick to jump on the Hatton is world class bandwagon. YOUR arguments against the quality Gatti opponents is valid - but wasn't Kostya who just fought 3 rounds in 3 years, was in his mid 30's and was struggling at the weight (plus fighting at home). So if you want to look at a career, why are you so quick to jump on the Hatton bandwagon. If you want to look at a career, it could be argued that Zab has achieved more than Hatton. Yet you even declared that Zab isn't even "world level" (which you have bracketed Gatti).

Hatton certainly didn't look world class (or beat world class opposition) before or since, according to your definition.

My definition significantly varies.... DLH and Mayweather are all time GREATS.... Hatton, Margarito (who resume is way off Judah may I add), Judah, Gatti, and yes, Collazo, Maussa, Cotto, Baladomir are all world class.

To become a great then surely you have to have several wins at world class.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 23 Jun 2006, 09:39

Terence wrote:Warrior called me dumb Silkov so I jokingly retorted, do keep up.

Who exactly has shaken Floyd up?...
Aside from Gatti you mean?

When Gatti steps-up in class the other guy is rarely shaken, Diego hammered JLC, where is the Gatti equivalent. There are few really top-drawer hitters out there.

It also looks rather forced when you sat rather in a rather self-conscious way Drop the ellipses also, they look daft.

Now get over to the other thread and at least try responding to a point instead of blowing a gasket.

You still havent answered the question though, despite the neat verbal footwork. If Gatti isnt a big hitter due to not being able to shake Mayweather than neither are Castillo or Corrales?... who are both known and accepted as big hitters!. And again, who has shaken Mayweather??....

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 23 Jun 2006, 18:11

This is how I'll say it regarding the Featherweights of the nighties, Terrence.

Robinson = World class.

Hamed = mmm, close to a "great", but I would argue that he had too many "advantages" in his fights over fellow world class to be labelled a great. Only world class fighter he fought at his peak were Medina and Barrera = So he is 1-1. Like you argued about some of Gatti's best wins being flawed... same with Hamed.

All the other (Barrera, Pacquiao and Morales) are "all timers"... had enough credible wins and enough skill to not just hang in the featherweight top ten of any era (which peak Robinson and Hamed would have) but to probably be a champion in any era.

Quite easy really. For me, giving the circumstances involved in their three fights.. its as hard for me to call who was the best of three (especially between Barrera and Pacquiao) as it would be arguing who was the best Hagler or Monzon (i.e. greats from any era).

Rocky Juarez is world class now, if he beats Barrera he still not be a great - as I don't call Hatton a great based on the Tszyu win.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 24 Jun 2006, 04:51

Terence wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:World class for example is winning a world title which Gatti has done twice.
Ok so Carlos Maussau is world-class is he? In that case bang it up as a thread and lets give Ricky some respect. How many titles as Mayorga won? How easily did he get beaten by Oscar. Ali was world-class, as was Frazier, people may say Quarry, he was high-quality but lacked that extra something. If I see a fight advertised as a world-class bout I expect to see something I rarely see or sublime skills, Gatti throwing a jab and everyone jizzing themselves is not right up there for me, and I love Gatti, I have most of his fights, that is why I can see how many flaws he has.

He satisfies the criteria of Silkov, again my friend is let down by his poor graps of what something means here. I have a different understanding because I don't toss around words like 'Great' every time I watch a fight.

At Welter you have Mayweather and Hatton who are world-class, Margarito is working towards it, if Gatti beats Baldomir (who is now, by common criteria a world-class fighter, can't you see what a joke it is?) he'll lose to the first truly world-level fighter he meets.

Perspective: Floyd is bona fide world-class, as is Castillo, Floyd fought Castillo twice in tough fights which he won clearly yet struggled in, Gatti foguht Floyd and lost every second of every round, ditto for his fight with Oscar. So if he cannot hang in world class how can he be world-class?

Topper is right, he is HOF bound but that means nothing to me. He fought some good guys BUT went to war and won and lost in this way.

Give Ricky respect? Errrrm I am a Hatton fan.

Yes winning a world title says your world class or at the least makes a case for it.

You just only gave a point on skills.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 24 Jun 2006, 06:13

Terence wrote:
Ruelas was patently not the same fighter, this is a man who looked awful after the Garcia fight and claimed: "Every punch I threw and landed, reminded me of Garcia." So Gatti beat him in a war, a pale version of Ruelas IMO and I'm supposed to spledge myself? If Gatti was true world-class the war would never have transpired.

Did Ruelas not say that after the Nelson rematch? Or was he still saying that a few years later after the Gatti fight too?
Seems you're getting a bit desperate in your mission to prove that Gatti was nothing more than a journeyman.

In The Terence Worldview, has there ever been a non world class fighter who's featured in so many world class fights of the year? Around 5 or 6 probably? That's pretty amazing for such a humble run of the mill pug.

Surely he deserves a place in Terence's Book Of World Records no?

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 24 Jun 2006, 06:51

MightyWarrior wrote:
Terence wrote:
Ruelas was patently not the same fighter, this is a man who looked awful after the Garcia fight and claimed: "Every punch I threw and landed, reminded me of Garcia." So Gatti beat him in a war, a pale version of Ruelas IMO and I'm supposed to spledge myself? If Gatti was true world-class the war would never have transpired.
Did Ruelas not say that after the Nelson rematch? Or was he still saying that a few years later after the Gatti fight too?
Seems you're getting a bit desperate in your mission to prove that Gatti was nothing more than a journeyman.

In The Terence Worldview, has there ever been a non world class fighter who's featured in so many world class fights of the year? Around 5 or 6 probably? That's pretty amazing for such a humble run of the mill pug.

Surely he deserves a place in Terence's Book Of World Records no?

Terance rates Jeff Lacy very highly!!..

.. world class

and all that!!!..

.. whoopps!... :x

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 26 Jun 2006, 05:40

So, if I'd have asked you a few months back, you'd have argued till the cows come home ( as you do ) that Lacy is the best in the world at SM, and clearly IS world class, and Gatti isn't...right? Until JC blew up that particular theory.

So....do you now concede that you'd have only been HALF right? Or 100% WRONG?

And I suppose Barry McGuigen lost to Steve Cruz, as he was still suffering the effects of an early career tragedy? Or Minter lost to Hagler for same reason? Or is this just a theory you bring out when it suites The Terrence World View?

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 26 Jun 2006, 06:06

Terence wrote: In previous eras they had TV Fighters, good, exciting TV guys who they knew would provide blood and guts, Gatti is one of them, only now he has a title.

Like Rocky Graziano and Tony Zale for instance?

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 26 Jun 2006, 06:07

Terence your confusing "world class" with "elite" Some of the stuff you posted in here is total bollox and I think you know it. I won't bother arguing with you though since you are obviously always right.

Please refrain from posting when stoned.

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 26 Jun 2006, 06:19

Judah not world class? Undisputed champion, won 4 maybe 5 rounds against PBF (who will go down as an all time great)
Your hilarious

Please refrain from posting when stoned.

Lacy KO 5 baby!

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 26 Jun 2006, 06:29

right I'm going to bed.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 26 Jun 2006, 09:16

Terence wrote:C'mon guys, I didn't expect much, but then I didn't expect so little from the creme de la creme of Boxrec.

Stu, Robinson was not world-class, hard worker yes, world-class Yo-yo maybe.

Hamed stock down, even when I tried to be kind to him, Robinson got beat by a puncher, a guy with such silky blance he can be off-set by a jab, step-back and side-step. I went Robinson, Hamed and Barrera for a reason, you missed the point, they fought (not all at feather BTW) in the nineties but does that mean I was opening up a conversation about 1990's featherweights? If I was wouldn't be be best saying mid-early-to-mid-late featherweights of the 1990's (but some in the noughties)? Or do we discout pre-Robinson. My point (again) Robinson (world-class accroding to Stu, bombed out with pure ease by a smiling Hamed), Naseem (Super-duper world-class), Barrera (Cosmic class), Pac-Man (who was not a 1990's feather BTW, nor was Barrera for that matter) must be a 'god can you invent a seperate world for me to conquer' world-class. If Rocky was world-class he'd have beaten a patently sluggish Barrera, I'll hold fire for the return if that is Ok:

So you make a post about my theory of ranking fighters, I respond - but thus in turn your response to that is by repeating yourself regarding "my theory" (even though I quite clearly stated that how you percieve my theory is complete bollox).

Steve Robinson beat 3 "world champions" in his reign, two of these one time featherweight champions and the other Super Bantamweight champion. He would also outclass a the reigning Commonwealth champion during his reign.

Even post Hamed he would hold the European title and run two world champions (one current) VERY close - this when clearly past his best and again outclass a fighter who held the lonsdale belt outright. Not bad going really.

As has been well documented, that Robinson preperations for the Hamed wasn't the greatest... he was shafted big style. One could speculate that there was a reason behind him being shafted (i.e. the people in the know might not have seen it as a forgone conclusion otherwise). Anyway, I think the manner of the victory puts us all beyond doubt that Hamed would have beaten a prime Robinson - fight probably would have been closer, but no doubt who would have won.

But, as YOU clearly state in some of the argument... One victory shouldn't be the be all and end all regarding if someone is world class or not... Otherwise, if you do stress that the manner of the Hamed victory discounts Robbo then neither should James Toney (Roy Jones), Bernard Hopkins (Roy Jones), Virgill Hill (Roy Jones), Jeff Lacy (Joe Calzaghe) Tito Trinidad (Bernard Hopkins, Winky Wright) and several other fighters are not world class either - cause they took systematic beatings - indeed ALL of these were close to their prime and didn't have the preperation problems of Robinson when they lost.

As for Hamed, I'll repeat - he beat the reigning IBF, the reigning WBC, the reigning WBO and the reigning WBA champions. Also the reigning WBU (and former WBC) champion. A future 6 time champion and a future IBF champion, plus two former champions at lower weights... If thats not a world class resume, then what is. Had all of these been at their prime, then it would have been the resume of an all time great - but only Barrera and Medina were at their prime when they fought - so I don't class Hamed as an all time great.

Barrera, Pacquiao, Morales are all time greats... They resume is that of an all time great even if you take the lineage to Hamed/Robinson out of the equation.

As for Rocky Juarez - you say you'll pass on that one.... again I have to mention Hatton, he's only beaten one "world class" (your definition) fighter... Who hasn't fought since and had only fought for just over 8 minutes in 3 years, and was in his mid 30's, and Hatton didn't outclass him - it was very close on the cards and it was clear that age slowed Tszyu down (as he had a handy points lead by the 8th). Yet, that win signals Hatton as world class (Terence stylee) but Juarez, very controvesial, defeat against a more active Barrera - who looked great in his previous fight adding the IBF title - doesn't make Juarez world class... doesn't add up.

I've not even mentioned the Raheem and Gutty Espedas wins- which is far better than what Hatton has achieved pre and post Tszyu.

No doubt, you'll probably criticise Juarez big style but also say he is one of your favourites... A frequent pattern of your previous posts.

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 26 Jun 2006, 10:03

Stu take no notice of Terence, he is always this illogical. I bet he thinks Sonny Liston wasn't "World Class" since he got KO'd in first by Ali

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 26 Jun 2006, 10:52

Hang on their jimbo, PBF is world class right? So he became world class by beating fringe contenders?

No he became elite by beating OTHER world class fighters in Castillo, Corrales & Judah, but according to you, none of those are "world class" So for future reference, what do I call these?

Shall I call them, "fighters that took an elite 12 rounds in close contests" excluding Corrales ofcourse

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 26 Jun 2006, 12:04

Terence wrote:
This is how I'll say it regarding the Featherweights of the nighties, Terrence.

Robinson = World class.

Hamed = mmm, close to a "great", but I would argue that he had too many "advantages" in his fights over fellow world class to be labelled a great. Only world class fighter he fought at his peak were Medina and Barrera = So he is 1-1. Like you argued about some of Gatti's best wins being flawed... same with Hamed.

All the other (Barrera, Pacquiao and Morales) are "all timers"... had enough credible wins and enough skill to not just hang in the featherweight top ten of any era (which peak Robinson and Hamed would have) but to probably be a champion in any era.

Stu, by your definition Hatton has been beating world-class for the past two years. I advocated a ceasefire on prematurely ranking fighters as great yet Hatton had made a good start for himself with the win over Tszyu and it got him a world rating as THE BEST in his division. Now he has to crack on from there. As for the one-fight lists, Jones I do rank as world-class, easily, and who did he beat? Toney, Hopkins and McCallum for starters.

As for the featherweightrs of the 1990's, all one of them, Robinson, if he was world-class would not have been bounced about, pish about his preparations aside by a guy who was then declared prematurely great and was himself exposed. Steve was a good European fighter who got some good names, with provisios, on his resume. You completely miss the point though. How can a world-class guy, legit, face another one and get bounced around the ring as Gatti has done twice and Robinson did? Answer the other guy had more of a shot at that particular label, unfortunately it means nothing.

As for Juarez I'm not going to say 'wow! he had a good few rounds, he is a legend' I'm going to wait and see.

Plus it is Ok to criticise your favourite fighter Stu, it is called objectivity.

I'll reply in full to other non-issues you raised when I get a few seconds to spare.

By my definition.... no Hatton hasn't been beating world class for years. Vince Phillips WAS world class, but his points defeat against the poorest of the champions (Shamba Mitchell) signalled an end to him being world class.

Eamonn Magee, beaten by Paul Burke, beaten by Teddy Reid - European Level but not world class (although had the tools).

I would say Hatton has 4 world class fighters on his resume - Tackie pre championship and his last 3 fights.

However, nice spin on it.... I asked YOU by YOUR definition of how can Hatton be world class and Juarez not and have still yet to read a categorical answer.

Was Tszyu less shot than Barrera? Is Tszyu younger than Barrera? Has Tszyu got less ring rust than Barrera?

Did Hatton comfortably destroy Tszyu? Sure Hatton got the win and Juarez didn't officially, but didn't you say its not the W thats all important, but the manner of the victory (thats why you rank J.L. Castillo "world class", but Zab Judah not in your "consistent" theory - based on their performances vs Floyd).

I didn't ask you to acknowledge Juarez as a legend.... why? Do you acknowledge Hatton as a legend?

Listen, you have your theory and I respect it - but I just fail to see the consistency... Its all very well labelling some world class with honourable defeats (as you have done J.L.Castillo), but then not others (Juarez and Judah). Its also all very well ranking some fighters as world class based on one fight alone in world class, according to your definition (Hatton), but then not others (Juarez, Raheem).

Oh forgot to ask if you think Eric Morales was world class after beating Pacquiao, prior to Raheem - who gave him a lesson (btw).

If you said... no Hatton isn't world class then I'd have no argument... then you are being consistent. Wrong (IMO) but hell, its all subjective, but at least your argument was truly consistent.

I will wait for you reply concerning do your notion that any fighter who loses in a conclusive manner cannot be world class. Remember James Toney (or pretty much anyone that faced Roy Jones), Don Curry, and Tito Trinidad when you make your response.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 26 Jun 2006, 12:13

lvlarc_uk wrote:Hang on their jimbo, PBF is world class right? So he became world class by beating fringe contenders?

No he became elite by beating OTHER world class fighters in Castillo, Corrales & Judah, but according to you, none of those are "world class" So for future reference, what do I call these?

Shall I call them, "fighters that took an elite 12 rounds in close contests" excluding Corrales ofcourse

Exactly, according to the theory - no fighter would ever be world class.

Patterson took a kicking twice so he wasn't world class, so how did Liston prove he was world class, so how did Clay prove he was world class, how frazier, how foreman and on and on.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 27 Jun 2006, 05:28

Well Terence, I think you have suceeded in boring everyone into submission: I now realise, as always, you are 100% right: Gatti is clearly no-where near world class, having never beaten a world class fighter himself.
And Jeff Lacy (who is clearly world class ) will beat Calzaghe if they ever meet in a fair fight.

Is that ok, can we move on now?