Muhammad Ali (1967) vs. current HWs ?

[oogiebe]

Hughie is the undisputed king of the air jab, not even Muh could match him there

Keeps his opponents properly fanned during bouts.

[lazboy]

Hughie is the undisputed king of the air jab, not even Muh could match him there

Keeps his opponents properly fanned during bouts.

LOL! That made me chuckle.

[oogiebe]

Keeps his opponents properly fanned during bouts.

LOL! That made me chuckle.

[Enlightened-One]

Hughie Fury's style is very much like Ali's. If they had fought at the same time, Hughie would have been a good sparring partner to train with if someone was scheduled to fight Ali. Thought Hughie was going to be a bit better actually. I thought he beat Parker.

When Hughie Fury was still only 24 years of age, he’d already challenged for the WBO world heavyweight title and engaged in highly competitive bouts against the likes of Alexander Povetkin, Kubrat Pulev and Joseph Parker (two world champions and one two-time title contender).

And according to ESPN and The RING, all three of those guys are still classed as top-ten world-rated heavyweights.

To put this into context, Anthony Joshua didn’t turn pro until a few days prior to his 24th birthday. Deontay Wilder was about the same age as AJ when he made his pro debut. And let’s not forget that both of these men lost several times in the unpaid ranks. So I feel it’s perfectly normal for most fighters to suffer defeats early in their careers, due to a combination of youth and inexperience.

Hughie Fury is currently only 25 years of age and is still younger and far more experienced in the pro ranks than every single one of his fellow prospects.

So he clearly has time on his hands to improve. The skills are definitely there, but he needs to work on his footwork and balance, because he’s feather-fisted due to a lack of leverage. And this flaw will prevent him from progressing to the next level.

Perhaps Hughie needs to follow in his cousin’s footsteps, leave his father-trainer (Peter), employ SugarHill Steward and adopt the Kronk fighting style. He has the right sort of physique for it and it's clear that changes in his training regimen are needed.

If Hughie can’t address his lack of punching power, then he’ll never progress beyond fringe contender level.

[jenko21]

Good points there, although I don't think they were that competitive in all fairness aside from Parker, hughie seems to be a little bit tentative, dare I say scared, when things don't go the way he wants.

He's been a pro what 6-7 years and yet he doesn't sit down on his punches unless it's against british/ Euro level.

Seems like he's a bit too timid to make it into world class, he doesn't have that desire to dig in when the going gets tough, flicking a jab and some good movement generally don't win world titles.

[lazboy]

Good points there, although I don't think they were that competitive in all fairness aside from Parker, hughie seems to be a little bit tentative, dare I say scared, when things don't go the way he wants.

He's been a pro what 6-7 years and yet he doesn't sit down on his punches unless it's against british/ Euro level.

Seems like he's a bit too timid to make it into world class, he doesn't have that desire to dig in when the going gets tough, flicking a jab and some good movement generally don't win world titles.

Agree and I share those thoughts. In the career defining/world title opportunities he's been given (some would say undeservedly so), he hasn't be able to show that fighting spirit, something which his cousin, Tyson, doesn't lack. Known super defensive fighters such as Mayweather and Whitaker have shown numerous times they have that inner fire. I'm for the saying: skill beats will, but at times you need to fight, especially if a world title is on the line. I don't see that Hughie has it. He'd be a great sparring partner and gate-keeper type in my opinion.

[margaret thatcher]

I had him losing like 118-111 to Pulev, didn't think that was very competitive tbh. He fought most fight scared and wasn't even air jabbing. Seemed very rattled by his own blood.

Vs Pov, despite this young age, he was the one who faded later and the 40 year old won the late rounds

The Parker fight was Joe coming forward, swinging and missing, and Hughie air jabbing. Just awful.


Thing is, sure he's young, but he really hasn't shown any signs of changing his style or improving his weaknesses. That's not very promising. He comes across as just not having a strong mentality once he's in there. Rattled by a cut, won't get close enough into range to actually land, very tentative, etc......not 'hard' enough

[lazboy]

Air jabbing is now encoded into my boxing vocab. Learn something new every day.

[bobcatbox]

Air jabbing is now encoded into my boxing vocab. Learn something new every day.

“Avatar: The Last Air Jabber.”

[jamesmcdonnell]

I had him losing like 118-111 to Pulev, didn't think that was very competitive tbh. He fought most fight scared and wasn't even air jabbing. Seemed very rattled by his own blood.

Vs Pov, despite this young age, he was the one who faded later and the 40 year old won the late rounds

The Parker fight was Joe coming forward, swinging and missing, and Hughie air jabbing. Just awful.


Thing is, sure he's young, but he really hasn't shown any signs of changing his style or improving his weaknesses. That's not very promising. He comes across as just not having a strong mentality once he's in there. Rattled by a cut, won't get close enough into range to actually land, very tentative, etc......not 'hard' enough

Hughie won't ever amount to much - he hasn't got the right mental constitution for it, he's too risk averse and doesn't like a scrap of any kind.

[lazboy]

Air jabbing is now encoded into my boxing vocab. Learn something new every day.

“Avatar: The Last Air Jabber.”

[bobcatbox]

Elvis Rodriguez was not throwing air jabs tonight.

[SteveO]

Prime Muhammad Ali could beat any boxer that ever lived - there sorted.

[The-sandman]

But aren’t the current fighters not heavyweights but super heavyweights?

[SteveO]

But aren’t the current fighters not heavyweights but super heavyweights?

Size wouldn't matter to The Greatest.

[Brute]

Ali was 6' 4" and weighed about the same as Wilder
with infinitely better skills and enough punching power
to take out 60% of his opponents including Foreman.
He could easily grab a belt now in his prime and hold
it with no problem.
You can't hit what you can't see.

I think he was 6'3, but yeah he was definitely rangy enough to hold his own with the guys of today, and very fast and mobile.

Excellent combinations, a damn good chin, very fast, very skilled.

I think he'd win quite comfortably against most of the guys of today. He'd have a few difficulties with some of the better ones probably, but some guys he'd beat easy as pie.

Sonny Liston had an 84 inch reach and had trouble laying a glove on Ali. Ali was 22 when he won the undisputed Heavyweight Title. Ali was unbelievably fast for a heavyweight. As for height 6 feet 3 was very tall in the 1960s. This was a time when people would say "A big man, 6 feet and 180 pounds." These days most rugby league halfbacks are bigger than that.

[tonyevs]

Ali is the same height as or taller than Usyk, Povetkin, Ruiz, Hunter, Chisora and Rivas while Whyte, Ortiz, Pulev and Miller are only 2cm taller than him.

If we're all on the understanding that Ali is more skillful than all of these heavyweights, or even all but three of them if you really want to be desperate, size would only matter with regards to AJ, Fury and Wilder. He beats everyone else with that minuscule size disadvantage. So at the very worst you can put him at 4th.

But it's worth remembering that 6'3 Cunningham dropped Fury and 6'3 McDermott arguably beat him. 6'2 Ruiz KO'd Joshua. While 6'2 Sconiers dropped Wilder and 6'0 Romanov KO'd him in the amateurs.

The height of modern heavyweights compared to Ali doesnt prove anything; heavies today are much more musclebound, heavier and stronger, they would walk through Ali with little problem. Holyfield struggled with the bigger heavies and I know it sacrilege to say so .. but Holyfield would beat Ali at least 9 out of 10 times at their peaks.

[Enlightened-One]

But it's worth remembering that 6'3 Cunningham dropped Fury and 6'3 McDermott arguably beat him. 6'2 Ruiz KO'd Joshua. While 6'2 Sconiers dropped Wilder and 6'0 Romanov KO'd him in the amateurs.

To be honest, it’s stupid to dwell on a fighters worst performances, whereby all the examples you’ve cited (barring Aj's bout against Ruiz Jr.) referred to novices experiencing a bad day at the office.

It’s also important to note that Doug Jones almost knocked down Muhammad Ali, but the likes of Alan Hudson, Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper, Joe Frazier and Chuck Wepner all managed to deck him.

All these guys were much smaller than Fury, Joshua and Wilder. In fact most of them would be modern-day cruiserweights.

The same applies to other heavyweight greats, for instance...

Cleveland Williams (almost stopped Liston), Marty Marshall, Julius Griffin, Leotis Martin and Muhammad Ali all knocked down Sonny Liston.

Therefore, even all-time-greats and Hall-of-Famers have experienced several bad days at the office during their careers.

Can you see the point I’m making here? You're insisting that we should compare the prime version of Ali against the worst iterations of Wilder, Joshua and Fury, which is a silly comparison to make!

[snake33]

Ali would:
Dance around Wilder easily and knock him out in the late rounds.
Dance around Joshua easily take him to a UD but a KO is also a possibility.
Be enough quicker and slicker than Fury to offset the size and dance to a UD.
Usyk is so over rated at heavy and doesn't belong in this discussion.

[Thomastearns]

Ali would:
Dance around Wilder easily and knock him out in the late rounds.
Dance around Joshua easily take him to a UD but a KO is also a possibility.
Be enough quicker and slicker than Fury to offset the size and dance to a UD.
Usyk is so over rated at heavy and doesn't belong in this discussion.

Not sure about the Usyk comment but the rest are all self evident.

Of course if any pre 76 version of Muhammad Ali was fighting today there would be little chance of any of the above actually being allowed to climb into the ring with him.

They'd all be too busy making excuses and fighting over the novelty belts that would be strategically freed up or created specifically for them.

Sacred cows are usually protected, cash cows too - until they're ripe for slaughter.

[SteveO]

Holyfield would beat Ali at least 9 out of 10 times at their peaks.

You must be joking!

[Tevfik1907]

my reaction to %35



They should watch michael jackson clips instead boxing

[Tevfik1907]

But it's worth remembering that 6'3 Cunningham dropped Fury and 6'3 McDermott arguably beat him. 6'2 Ruiz KO'd Joshua. While 6'2 Sconiers dropped Wilder and 6'0 Romanov KO'd him in the amateurs.

To be honest, it’s stupid to dwell on a fighters worst performances, whereby all the examples you’ve cited (barring Aj's bout against Ruiz Jr.) referred to novices experiencing a bad day at the office.

It’s also important to note that Doug Jones almost knocked down Muhammad Ali, but the likes of Alan Hudson, Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper, Joe Frazier and Chuck Wepner all managed to deck him.

All these guys were much smaller than Fury, Joshua and Wilder. In fact most of them would be modern-day cruiserweights.

The same applies to other heavyweight greats, for instance...

Cleveland Williams (almost stopped Liston), Marty Marshall, Julius Griffin, Leotis Martin and Muhammad Ali all knocked down Sonny Liston.

Therefore, even all-time-greats and Hall-of-Famers have experienced several bad days at the office during their careers.

Can you see the point I’m making here? You're insisting that we should compare the prime version of Ali against the worst iterations of Wilder, Joshua and Fury, which is a silly comparison to make!

Fury himself said Usyk (1.90 cm height , 1.98 cm reach, as same as Ali) is the only one who can beat Wilder, except for himself. He thinks Usyk > Joshua.

Otto Wallin has the same reach (1.98 cm) as Ali and Usyk, and he gave Fury a better fight than Wilder ever did.

Andy Ruiz Jr. has 1.88 cm reach, and he won the WBA belt, by knocking out Joshua.
Joseph Parker has 1.93 cm reach and he won the WBO belt.

Whyte has 1.98 cm reach, and he was the no.1 mandatory challenger for WBC belt until 41 years old Povetkin with 1.91 cm reach KOed him

This height and reach argument is nothing but nonsense.

[joshj909]

But it's worth remembering that 6'3 Cunningham dropped Fury and 6'3 McDermott arguably beat him. 6'2 Ruiz KO'd Joshua. While 6'2 Sconiers dropped Wilder and 6'0 Romanov KO'd him in the amateurs.

To be honest, it’s stupid to dwell on a fighters worst performances, whereby all the examples you’ve cited (barring Aj's bout against Ruiz Jr.) referred to novices experiencing a bad day at the office.

It’s also important to note that Doug Jones almost knocked down Muhammad Ali, but the likes of Alan Hudson, Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper, Joe Frazier and Chuck Wepner all managed to deck him.

All these guys were much smaller than Fury, Joshua and Wilder. In fact most of them would be modern-day cruiserweights.

The same applies to other heavyweight greats, for instance...

Cleveland Williams (almost stopped Liston), Marty Marshall, Julius Griffin, Leotis Martin and Muhammad Ali all knocked down Sonny Liston.

Therefore, even all-time-greats and Hall-of-Famers have experienced several bad days at the office during their careers.

Can you see the point I’m making here? You're insisting that we should compare the prime version of Ali against the worst iterations of Wilder, Joshua and Fury, which is a silly comparison to make!

My point was not that Ali beats everyone all the time but more that these guys who some consider too big to be beaten by Ali have been dropped or beaten by people of a similar size and significantly less skilled. Their size is not enough to discount Ali's chances.

[Enlightened-One]

But it's worth remembering that 6'3 Cunningham dropped Fury and 6'3 McDermott arguably beat him. 6'2 Ruiz KO'd Joshua. While 6'2 Sconiers dropped Wilder and 6'0 Romanov KO'd him in the amateurs.

To be honest, it’s stupid to dwell on a fighters worst performances, whereby all the examples you’ve cited (barring Aj's bout against Ruiz Jr.) referred to novices experiencing a bad day at the office.

It’s also important to note that Doug Jones almost knocked down Muhammad Ali, but the likes of Alan Hudson, Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper, Joe Frazier and Chuck Wepner all managed to deck him.

All these guys were much smaller than Fury, Joshua and Wilder. In fact most of them would be modern-day cruiserweights.

The same applies to other heavyweight greats, for instance...

Cleveland Williams (almost stopped Liston), Marty Marshall, Julius Griffin, Leotis Martin and Muhammad Ali all knocked down Sonny Liston.

Therefore, even all-time-greats and Hall-of-Famers have experienced several bad days at the office during their careers.

Can you see the point I’m making here? You're insisting that we should compare the prime version of Ali against the worst iterations of Wilder, Joshua and Fury, which is a silly comparison to make!

My point was not that Ali beats everyone all the time but more that these guys who some consider too big to be beaten by Ali have been dropped or beaten by people of a similar size and significantly less skilled. Their size is not enough to discount Ali's chances.

But you’re still choosing to compare the prime iteration of Ali against the worst iterations of today’s fighters! And that's an unfair comparison to make.

OK, so let’s flip the coin and adopt the polar opposite approach…

Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper were both the equivalent size of a modern-day rehydrated light heavyweight when they decked Ali.

In fact, ‘The Greatest’ was even behind on the scorecards when Cooper was stopped on cuts during their first fight. And let’s not forget that Angelo Dundee resorted to using smelling salts, which were forbidden under BBBofC rules, and also drew attention to a “torn” glove to play for time in between the rounds that Ali hit the deck.

Many feel that Ali was fortunate to be awarded the decision victory over Doug Jones. Another man that was the equivalent size of a modern-day rehydrated light heavyweight. In fact, by Ali’s own admission, Doug Jones came very close to decking him.

The Associated Press scored the fight 5-4-1 for Jones.

Ali was definitely well behind on the judges scorecards when the referee prematurely stopped Ron Lyle (especially if you compare the stoppage to Joe Frazier’s first bout against Foreman).

The 219lbs Ron Lyle was the equivalent size of a modern-day rehydrated cruiserweight.

Many believe that two modern-day cruiserweights, the 209lbs Jimmy Young and the 217½lbs Ken Norton (3rd bout), were both robbed on the judges’ scorecards for their fights against Ali.

What about Ali resorting to cheating during his bout against the 212½lbs Ernie Terrell, another modern-day cruiserweight? When Ali changed the whole flow of the fight by intentionally rubbing Terrell’s eyes along the ropes, as well as sticking a thumb in the left eye.

Like you have done, I’ve cherry-picked some of Ali’s worst or most controversial performances against (modern-day) light heavyweights and cruiserweights.

And it would be too easy or lazy for me to claim that the version of Tyson Fury that stopped Deontay Wilder would beat those versions of Ali, because the comparison wouldn’t be a fair one to make.

But you can’t concede you’re doing precisely the same thing, but in reverse (i.e. prime Ali versus worst versions of Fury, Joshua and Wilder). This approach doesn't make your argument more compelling, because it can also be used to undermine it.

It's your prerogative to perceive history through nostalgic rose-tinted glasses, where your naivety blinds you from questioning accomplishments that have been embellished to the point they've become myths, but the actual objective truths of reality is the fact that Ali would be far less effective today than he was forty-five to sixty years ago, simply because he'd be facing far bigger foes.