Rocky Marciano: What If?

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 24 Jun 2006, 09:45

Rocky Marciano: What If?

What if Marciano had NOT retired in 1956 after his 9th round KO win over contender, and Light Heavyweight champion, Archie Moore?

The top contenders of 1956 were such men as Nino Valdes, Tommy Jackson, Bob Baker, Bob Satterfield, John Holman, Earl Walls, Jimmy Slade; other than
Charles, Cockell and Moore whom me had previously beaten.

But it would be neither of these men who would become the next champion,
as Floyd Patterson scorched Archie Moore in 5 rounds to lay claim to the title.

When Patterson became champion, Marciano was quoted as saying, when asked if he felt if he faced Patterson, did he believe he could regain his title:

"If I said I could beat Patterson, you'd think I was bragging. If I said I couldn't, I'd be lying."

When Ingemar Johansson became champion, Marciano sincerly thought of making a return to the ring, as he felt the Swede was too much of an amatuer to be a champion. He did get himself into pretty good ring shape, and even signed a contract to face Johansson, if the Swede could get passed Patterson in their rematch.

But Marciano didn't return, as he talked it over with his family, mainly his uncle, and decided not to make a comeback.

He was offered challenges later on by Sonny Liston, but again he did not pursue these many offers. Marciano said later on that he would return if the money was just right, but I believe he only said that because his contract with Al Weil legally had not ended, as Weil took a huge percentage of Marciano's purses throughout his entire career.

It wouldn't be until 1969 that he got into shape, for an exhibition with Muhammad Ali, sparring well over 75 rounds with the exiled champion, and the film was fed into a computer. Rumors of Marciano getting frustrated with Ali as he knocked his ill-fitted wig off and dropping Ali with a body shot, leading Ali to demand more money from Murray Warner---just showed that the Rock, even though retired for nearly 15 years, if he had to, would try to take any man out.

Let's say for sake of argument, Marciano did not retire at 49-0. And instead chose to continue on his pugilistic career up until, let's say 1960. How do you think Marciano would have stood up to the 7 men I listed prior, plus Patterson, Johansson and up-and-coming Liston?
On average Marciano made 2 title defenses each year, so for every two matches, goes a year.
Here's my take on each fight:

Title Defense #7 Nino Valdes-
The 6'3" Cuban was a very good fighter, though losing to some of the better Heavyweights of the time, his size would have been a small problem for Marciano, but as always Marciano breaks down the defenses of Valdes and tears away the tactical armor. KO 6th.

Title Defense #8 Bob Baker-
Baker was another big Heavyweight for the time, being 6'2" and 220 pounds. Baker had beaten many of the top men, but failed to beat the creme of the crop like Archie Moore, but beat men like Layne and Valdes and Holman. I think Marciano would have had a time with him for a while, but as usual, Marciano would have ranked him out and beaten him inside of 8 rounds.

Title Defense #9 Tommy Jackson-
I can only judge more or less on the basis, that despite Tommy Jackson being a very fast mover and 6'4", on a sparring session between the men. As the story goes Marciano was sparring with Jackson, preparing for a title defense, and Marciano saw an opening and hit as hard as he could to the stomach of "Hurricane". Jackson hit the canvas and puked right there and then. Myself I believe an actual match would have lasted longer than the sparring session, but I could genuinely see the same result. KO in 8th.

Title Defense #10 Bob Satterfield-
Moved up from Middleweight to Light Heavyweight to Heavyweight, beating many of the best fighters there was. This fight is actually the hardest for me to judge, as Satterfield was still in his prime around 1956 and he had beaten so many of the top ten ranked men by then---and since this would be actually the year 1958, Satterfield would now have been on the downside. But I believe Marciano would have absorbed all of Satterfield's punches and got pissed off, and lay a beating on him that made Moore's look like a day on the beach. KO 5th.

Title Defense #11 Earl Walls-
This would have been an easy match for Marciano, much like how they substituted Don Cockell for Nino Valdes, a "set-up" to the real fight in preperation. Walls would have been game, but I sincerly don't see the poor bastard going passed five rounds. He seemed to have peaked and ended his career in 1956, though before the mid-50's he never really fought anybody worth mentioning, though he did beat some fairly good names. I think he was too inexperienced.

Title Defense #12 John Holman-
Same as with Earl Walls. Game but wouldn't really be a threat to Marciano. I think he possibly had more ability than what Walls would, but would have been ultimately destroyed within five rounds. He was too inconsistant, losing to the men he already beaten, and vice versa.

Title Defense #13 Jimmy Slade-
Did beat Jackson, but failed to beat Patterson. After 1957 he was pretty much used up, though in 1960 he did draw Albert Westphal. As with the other previous two defenses, I don't see Slade surviving more than five rounds.

Title Defense #14 Floyd Patterson-
Patterson is arguably the second fastest man at Heavyweight, just slightly behind Ali in hand speed. His chin was a known liability, but Patterson could get up off the floor to win. I think Marciano would of had a time at first getting to Patterson, but within the middle rounds Patterson would start getting battered. KO 10th.

Title Defense #15 Ingemar Johansson-
Johansson was more or less a trick pony, he threw that right hand, telegraphing it all the way, forever chasing the kayo. He was really sloppy, and myself he wouldn't have the stuff to really last with Marciano for too long. KO 6th.

Title Defense #16- Charles 'Sonny' Liston-
Liston was at his peak circa 1960. He beaten Valdes, Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen---was truly at the height of his powers. This match, if it ever would of happened, would have been Marciano's toughest defense, making his matches with Charles and Walcott look like a day at the beach. Liston's power was phenomenal, his jab was awesome. Not fast, but deceptively quick. The only thing to comes to my mind is, Liston sometimes would not train so great for his fights. For instance when he faced Ali for the first time, it was reputed he only trained for a four round fight, believing he could destroy Ali in that amount of time. And as evident with his matches with Ali, it proved he had a weak psyche. Before Marciano would get frustrated, Liston would. That would be the key factor, Liston could bring on the punishment and hurt Marciano---but when Liston would see Marciano still keep on coming after him, it would break him down inside. Marciano in my opinion would win a 15 round decision, a close one though.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 24 Jun 2006, 10:04

good, ill explain my anaylsis later since i know many of those men styles

also satterfield was defintley not in his prime in 1956

* also earl walls is a lot better than u think, he was a legite top heavyweight, one of the best contenders of marcianos era. walls was a very good boxer with a helluva right hand. a boxer puncher like walls with his size 6'3 would pose some problems for the rock though i have no doubt rocky was in a much different class and would have knocked walls out before 10

also no way does a past his prime marciano beat liston. a prime marciano might not even beat liston

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 24 Jun 2006, 10:23

Marciano was going to comeback if Johansson beat Patterson in the third fight.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 24 Jun 2006, 13:10

generic screen name wrote:Marciano was going to comeback if Johansson beat Patterson in the third fight.

Guess that makes his comment "If I said I could beat Patterson, you'd think I was bragging. If I said I couldn't, I'd be lying." Look like it came out of his ass.

AndreWardFan2006 · Post by **AndreWardFan2006** » 24 Jun 2006, 13:49

I'm glad he retired when he did. If he didn't he probably would have had one of those bad nights and lose to someone like Holman or Slade. That would have put a loss on that unblemished record. I'm proud of the Rock for retiring and staying there.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 24 Jun 2006, 13:59

For being a Marciano "nut hugger" Brockton...u sure as hell have ur doubts about the Rock

AndreWardFan2006 · Post by **AndreWardFan2006** » 24 Jun 2006, 14:02

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:For being a Marciano "nut hugger" Brockton...u sure as hell have ur doubts about the Rock

haha, I think the Rock could have put up a good fight with Liston, but Brockton knows the Rock more than anyone here so maybe he's right.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 24 Jun 2006, 14:04

Bleh....he thinks he knows everything.

I'd debate him any time about a Liston vs Marciano match up.

AndreWardFan2006 · Post by **AndreWardFan2006** » 24 Jun 2006, 14:05

You think the rock would cut Liston down? I would have loved to see Liston get the shit kicked out of him by rock.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 24 Jun 2006, 14:07

I think Marciano would have been alot more difficult for Liston than what Folley, Westphal and all those other men he faced would have. For somebody to say the Rock would have no chance of beating Liston is living in a pipe dream.

AndreWardFan2006 · Post by **AndreWardFan2006** » 24 Jun 2006, 14:27

Too bad the fight never happened, could have been interesting.

AndreWardFan2006 · Post by **AndreWardFan2006** » 24 Jun 2006, 14:50

I heard Marciano never was a fan of training, that he'd rather just fight without working out. I dont know if thats true, but not training to fight Liston or especially Patterson would be bad news.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 24 Jun 2006, 15:01

look i said a "PAST HIS PRIME" rocky defintley does not beat a prime liston.

i rate marciano and liston # 5 and # 6 greatest heavyweights of all time

i cant see many men in history beating a peak sonny liston, only a few and they would all HAVE TO BE AT THERE PEAKS.

a prime marciano vs liston fight would be very competitive and i can see rocky winning, but i can also see liston winning.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 24 Jun 2006, 16:52

Ok....so for you what would be a "prime" Liston or Marciano?

Myself Marciano was at his peak when he faced Charles the 2nd time. Course I only say this because he beaten Charles in 8 rounds by KO, but myself that only happened because Marciano was afraid the fight would get stopped so he went ape-shit on Charles---but I think even when he retired he was in his peak.

Prime Liston for me? 1959-1963. When he beat Folley, Westphal, Machen and Williams. In my mind the Rock would have beaten all these same men that Liston did---but I also know the Rock took a little bit longer to reach his goal. Liston had that reach advantage.

The difference to me is this, Sonny had the jab and power to fight Rocky. However, Marciano's crouching style would make it difficult for Liston to nail him cleanly. Mostly all fighters are bothered by fighters who fight out of a crouch. The best shot Marciano would have to beat Liston is if he could extend the fight to about the sixth or seventh round. If Marciano could get that far, his toughness and great stamina may be the difference. Liston like Tyson, wasn't the most stable fighter when the pressure was turned up.

Marciano had the better conditioning, the better will, be more tougher to face than any of the men Liston had faced---outside of Ali---and it would be a hard and competitive fight, but Liston never was really pressured in his career. When he was, by Ali most memorably, he shut down. I don't know if the man could take someone being aggressive against him, showing no fear whatsoever.

AndreWardFan2006 · Post by **AndreWardFan2006** » 24 Jun 2006, 17:37

Decagon wrote:
AndreWardFan2006 wrote:I heard Marciano never was a fan of training, that he'd rather just fight without working out. I dont know if thats true, but not training to fight Liston or especially Patterson would be bad news.
I disagree. Few fighters in the history of boxing took training as seriously as Marciano did.

Well I stand corrected.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 24 Jun 2006, 17:55

I agree that Marciano would have won all these fights until Liston. They would have gotten more and more difficult as he aged. He already was beginning to show some wear and tear in the Moore fight when he was 32 in 1955.
However by the time he would have fought Liston in 1960 he would have been 37 years old. He would have declined a lot by then. Marciano would have done well to get past the mid rounds against Liston by this stage. Liston would win this fairly easily.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 24 Jun 2006, 23:08

Okies. I disagree with the assumption that Marciano was on the decline when he faced Archie Moore. Fact is Marciano had been contemplating retirement already by that time, not due to physical problems or for lack of opponents or even so much as being "bored" with it all.

Was simply due to Al Weil and his money grabbing ways, and Marciano wanted no part of it no more. But Archie Moore called out Marciano, and the Rock put some really great effort into his training abilities and still beat Archie's ass---and mind you Moore would still reign as Light Heavyweight champion for nearly another decade even after losing to Marciano, so you can't really say Marciano was on the downside.

Marciano would never do anything to hurt his sport in any ways, he looked at the championship almost like we do the Presidency of the United States. He took it all very seriously, more so than probably anyone else before or since himself. I don't think he wanted to retire, for hell people still question his abilities today, as they did then.

In his time magazines read, even after he beaten Walcott, read aloud IS MARCIANO A BUM? and the like. Maybe he didn't have nothing else to prove, but if that was so why would he even dare contemplate another comeback numerous times? He was offered to fight Johansson, Patterson and even Liston on different occassions.

None of these men myself were stupendous in my mind. Scream blasphemy all you want at me for putting down Liston, but like Tyson, most of those men he fought lost before the first punch---it was the intimidation factor mostly. Not to say Liston didn't have ability, but myself he was a plodder, he stalked his opponents and used his brute strength to win.

He couldn't handle pressure. And I don't think Marciano would have been intimidated. If you believe in the story of how Marciano once showed up at Liston's training camp and when Liston was asked how he felt of Marciano as a puncher, and said he could kick the Rock's ass, to which Marciano offered right then and there a fight, though he was not in shape, to which Liston declined---then maybe that shows that Liston couldn't take even someone standing up to him.

It was evident when Ali was putting on his sideshow act, acting like a crazy man saying he'd whup Liston like the "big ugly bear he is", that round one was already in his favor, as Liston right then and there was beaten in his mind.

Marciano 1960 (if he had went on) vs Liston of that same time, would be a harder match for the Rock, I will admit, than he would in his prime, but I have to figure also---if Ali could say that at 45 after 15yrs retirement, that he couldn't imagine how Marciano could have been in his prime, as awesome as a body puncher he had displayed in their 1969 computer fight, where they did 75 rounds, even (which story you want to believe) being doubled-over or knocked down from a body shot by Marciano, when not even Frazier, Foreman or even Norton could do that---I don't think it would be totally out of the question Marciano would pull a victory "upset".

I sincerly think, hadn't Al Weil existed, Marciano would have continued on as a boxer---and none of those men, up until Liston, would have been a challenge against Marciano. But even then, I don't think Liston could win, Marciano was just too relentless, and he never showed that he was hurt, and I think that would be the thing that would break Liston, that he couldn't hurt another man.

Cap · Post by **Cap** » 25 Jun 2006, 21:10

I like Marciano, but he was right to retire when he did. Had he continued without the fire in his belly, sooner or later he would've lost to someone like the guys listed previously. He was a great fighter, but he wasn't Superman. History shows that if a fighter doesn't stay retired, he eventually takes a whipping.

Cap

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 26 Jun 2006, 10:02

Decagon wrote:But where's the inspiration for Marciano to keep fighting another four years? He simply didn't have it in him to put up with the stink of the gym for that long.

i agree, marciano was a swarmer. swarmers never last that long. frazier was past his prime before age 30, same with dempsey

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 26 Jun 2006, 10:10

Ambling Alp wrote:I agree that Marciano would have won all these fights until Liston. They would have gotten more and more difficult as he aged. He already was beginning to show some wear and tear in the Moore fight when he was 32 in 1955.
However by the time he would have fought Liston in 1960 he would have been 37 years old. He would have declined a lot by then. Marciano would have done well to get past the mid rounds against Liston by this stage. Liston would win this fairly easily.

As most on this board are aware I do not rank Liston as one of the elite HW champs, but he would have been way too much in 1960 for an aged Marciano. In their primes, I think Rocky breaks Liston down and either makes him quit or stops him in a mid to late round, but in 1960 Rocky is carried out on his shield.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 27 Jun 2006, 23:56

Okies, we are going to suppose on a few things:

#1- A prime Marciano vs A prime Liston

#2- As was everyone's opinion, along with my own, that Marciano would have beaten every other Heavyweight listed other than Liston---let's figure Liston's record compared to Marciano's 49-0 record with the "wins" we believed he would have won if he had not retired---and see how they would have faired in a boxing match circa 1960.

#3- What puzzles me is how all of you said that Marciano would have beaten Patterson, the division's second fastest HW, and Johansson, RING magazines #99 GREATEST PUNCHER who beat such men as Cooper, Machen, Patterson, London with relative ease. But when he would face Liston, who did hit hard but outside of that jab had no skills, he would lose?

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#1 Being Analyzed

A prime Rocky Marciano was when he beaten Ezzard Charles for the second time in 1954 to the time he destroyed Archie Moore in his last title defense in 1955. Though you can say that is an awfully short "prime" span, you have to figure also, before he even got skilled at bobbing and weaving Marciano blew away Savold, Louis, Matthews---all ranked contenders and was death in rematches---it wasn't his punching power that beat Charles the first time, as it went the distance---it was everything else he had. Though maybe it was 1953 that he was in his prime as it just took one punch to put Jersey Joe Walcott into retirement.

Or maybe you could even take Joe Louis' word for it when Marciano blew him out in 1951 that "This kid can beat anybody out there." And mind you Louis was ranked #1 at the time.

Liston's peak was from about 1958 to 1963, as he beaten such men as Machen, Williams, Valdes, Folley, Westphal, Harris and of course Patterson. Can these men, in all seriousness, beat the men Marciano did? Could Harris have beaten LaStarza? Could Folley have beaten Charles? Could Westphal have beaten Louis? Could Valdes have beaten Walcott? Etc etc.

Liston was all about intimidation, and most of his opponents were scared before the bell even rang. Marciano was never scared of his opponents, that's round one won right there. Liston used that jab to set up his bag right hand---Marciano fought from a crouch and that pisses off even the most skilled boxers as it is hard to land a solid shot---round two won again for Marciano. Liston was a plodder, even in his best, he stalked his opponents and was slow---Marciano was on top of his opponent from round one, and unlike Liston waiting for the big shot---Marciano threw punches in bunches and in his prime hit harder than Liston---round four won there again for Marciano. Liston when he faced Ali was supposed to have only trained as if the championship bout was a four rounder, Liston believed he didn't need to train too hard to win---Marciano on the other hand was the most conditioned champion in history---Marciano would of had the stamina and endurance, as to where Liston wouldnt.

Need I really explain farther? Liston couldn't handle the pressure, and that's what Marciano was all about. Marciano would win by KO in the mid to late rounds.

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#2 Being Analyzed

Let's say Marciano had beaten all those men I listed before, including Patterson and Johansson. In the end, irregardless if you think Marciano was on the down-side, the "Rock" would have beaten far more skilled and better fighters than what Liston had---experience plus an indominable will and toughness and phenomenal conditioning, not to mention a higher KO rate than even George Foreman's overall career....

Let's take a step back...if Marciano continued on, and as we all agreed, he would beat everybody listed---with Liston being the question mark. Marciano's record would be 58-0 (52)---roughly a KO percentage of nearly 96%, rather than his overall "true" KO percentage of 88% in his 49 fights that he did have.

Liston's KO percentage from his pro debut to 1963 was around 80%.

Considering all of the factors, and let's even say that Marciano's abilities had slowed down a bit due to his age---and judging how George Foreman's KO percentage dropped to 87% from 98% in his comeback---you have to figure if Marciano's abilities did slow down in the 4yrs from 1956 to 1960 (supposed date that if him and Liston did meet up), Marciano would still have a KO percentage above 90%. **

** Considering Foreman lost a little over 10% after 10yrs inactivity in his KO prowess, figuring if Marciano's abilities did go on the downside in four years---he would not even have lost 5% of his power.

It would be a competitive fight, more than the two men facing off in their primes, but in the end---let's face it Marciano is all aces on the probabilities, Liston would more than likely lose in the later rounds, and by KO.

***********************************************************

#3 Being Analyzed-

If you all could say that Marciano could beat the 2nd fastest Heavyweight in Floyd Patterson, in my opinion who had faster hands than even Ali, just not foot speed---and could take down Johansson, who was possibly just as powerful a fighter as Liston, being 22-0 with 14 KO's (over 70%) when he defeated Patterson for the title, minus the "skills" of Liston---how could you possibly say with a straight face that Marciano couldn't beat Liston?

Is it because Patterson had a questionable chin? You have to figure everytime Patterson got knocked down in most of his fights, he got up to WIN his fights---unlike Liston who would just cave in if he hit the canvas. Is it because Patterson didn't have power? Liston had power, but that didn't help him beat Ali when there was so much pressure on Liston from round one, as Marciano would be.

Is it because Johansson never lived up to his hype? After he lost the title he did considerably well beating Brian London and winning the Euro title, hell even before Patterson he beaten Cooper and Machen, the latter whom Patterson ducked for years, by KO! No the man didn't have ability in skills, but he was tough and he had awesome power.

I can say the same about Liston. The man never lived up to the hype. His greatest win was over a man with an iffy chin (Patterson). He was a plodder. Used intimidation to win. Was slow---don't believe me, ask Larry Merchant who once did an interview with one of Liston's trainers, who said they had to pay the sparring partners to make Liston look good!

The man was more "myth" and rumors than actual ability, people heard of his past and hyped him up to be this monster of a man---hell even Muhammad Ali once commented how he was afraid that Liston was such a "giant" of a man---but when he got face to face with Liston, that the man was much shorter than he was. You see Liston was more about psychology and playing a bad ass than really being one.

There's no question in my mind that even the Heavyweights of today would probably school Liston---Klitschko's all of em, would make Liston look like a fool, that is if none of them bought into his hype. It's like how Buster Douglas broke Tyson's "invincibility"---and if you really think about it, was Tyson really as great as he was? Or did he just come in the right time, when there was nothing but a bunch of poofs?

That's where I class Liston. Sure he had a punch, no question, but I know of alot of fighters who did---but that didn't make them great.

Any thoughts? I would be glad to debate this.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 28 Jun 2006, 00:49

(sorry had to re-edit my post)

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 28 Jun 2006, 00:50

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:
#3- What puzzles me is how all of you said that Marciano would have beaten Patterson, the division's second fastest HW, and Johansson, RING magazines #99 GREATEST PUNCHER who beat such men as Cooper, Machen, Patterson, London with relative ease. But when he would face Liston, who did hit hard but outside of that jab had no skills, he would lose?
Which Sonny Liston fights have you seen? I don't need to pull that card often in this forum, but I'm curious.

I have seen alot of Liston's fights. But to humor you I will drop a few of the fights I have seen him in:

1.) The Patterson fights
2.) The Ali fights
3.) Leotis Martin fight (though Sonny was well passed his prime)
4.) Albert Westphal fight

So I have more or less seen Liston at his best, as champion, and after his prime. The man never did impress me a bit. Great puncher yes, but nothing to scream about.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 28 Jun 2006, 10:25

you need to watch liston vs bethea, machen, williams I and II, harris and then get back to me

listons peak was 58-60 and u havnt seen any fights during that period.

in fact i think listons peak fight was 1958 vs wayne bethea where liston looked faster than ever

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 28 Jun 2006, 10:27

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:you need to watch liston vs bethea, machen, williams I and II, harris and then get back to me

Yeah, those are all must see Liston fights. Irish, go watch those fights and then let us know what you think of Liston.