HOW NEAR TO HALL OF FAME STATUS IS JOE CALZAGHE?

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 21 Jun 2006, 12:35

liamlion wrote:
viciousmaussa wrote:...Mkrtchian - who did Mkrtchian beat in his last fight & tell me MM isn't world class.
Good question! Who did Mger Mkrtchian beat in his last fight? Are you suggesting that Mger Mkrtchian beating Jackson Chanet in 11 rounds, somehow means that Mkrtchian is now world-class?

viciousmaussa wrote:those guys are well balanced by these guys
Eubank
Reid
Woodhall
Brewer
Mitchell
Lacy
Sheika
I dont agree, but nevermind. However we are neglecting a third list of fighters. That is, those who Calzaghe realistically could and should have fought, but for whatever reasons didnt:

* Glenn Johnson
* Sven Ottke
* Roy Jones Jr
* Markus Beyer
* Bernard Hopkins
* Clinton Woods
* Darius Michalczewski

When we consider this list, surely Calzaghe's career is not so 'well balanced'?

Whats your definition of World Class then? Chanet was top 10, believe he was 9th in The Ring ratings also. Is top 10 not good enough to be considered "World Class" ? The Ring has Mger at 8 now, so is Veit.

Nice list, but realisticly, RJJ was already on his quest of jumping weight classes by the time Joe beat Eubank. A fight was close to being made with Hopkins, but Bernard refused at last minute and demanded double purse, well thats what I read in routers. Woods is a lightheavy, though a fight with him or Johnson looks possible for September.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 21 Jun 2006, 12:50

My definition of world class is someone with a realistic chance at winning one of the four major world titles, even if its the champion having a bad day and the non champion having a good day.

Mario Veit, Jackson Chanet, Vitali Tszypko, Brian Magee and MM are not world class.

Otkay Urkal was at Light Welterweight.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 21 Jun 2006, 13:12

hitman_hatton1 wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:Doesn't matter what ground you fight on anyway though and most Americans refuse to travel as well.
carlos monzon was one of the best middleweights ever and he only had 1 fight in the states.

calzaghe deserves his place in the hall on current achievements. he's still not fulfilled his full potential though.

I don't think so. He has held the pretty worthless WBO belt for years, denfending it against either tomato cans or over-the-hill have-beens. Not once in 10 years did the WBO come up with a decent mandatory. The one exception was Robin Reid, a really tough fight against an unpleasant opponent; but one decent fight where you barely scrape by doen't get you into the HOF. Now, after 10 years of disappointments, JC has started unifying, against an unexperienced, hand-selected, taylor-made opponent. He beat him up impressivley, fine, this is a bit better - but still far from the HOF.

Calzahge needs at least two top-notch fights to get into the HOF, better three. Start with Kessler, then step up and become two-weight champion against someone like Woods or Adamek, and when this has happened we could start talking in serious about the HOF.

We could - if there wasn't a guy called Frankie Warren that will prevent tings from playing out like this.

liamlion · Post by **liamlion** » 21 Jun 2006, 13:16

lvlarc_uk wrote:Whats your definition of World Class then? Chanet was top 10, believe he was 9th in The Ring ratings also. Is top 10 not good enough to be considered "World Class" ? The Ring has Mger at 8 now, so is Veit.

Right then, on that basis lets line up Calzaghe v Mkrtchian 2, followed closely by Calzaghe v Veit 3!!!

Dont delude yourself, the top 10 of shite, is shite - all the way through. Calzaghe has fought loads of sub-standard opponents and should be going after the other proper champions.

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 21 Jun 2006, 13:27

Yes and he is. I'd understand where you're coming from, had he not just fought Jeff Lacy. WORLD recognised #2 SM. Do you really think Warren is that daft going for sub-par opp now, with perhaps only a few fights left in Joe.

liamlion · Post by **liamlion** » 21 Jun 2006, 14:00

lvlarc_uk wrote:Yes and he is.

Im not so sure. Talk was of Peter Manfredo as one possible opponent for the Millenium Stadium show. That sort of opponent isnt going after the best nor is giving Glenn Johnson 6 weeks notice and making the fight at super-middle - and still pulling out.

lvlarc_uk wrote:I'd understand where you're coming from, had he not just fought Jeff Lacy. WORLD recognised #2 SM.

Yes fair point about Lacy. I thought the Lacy victory was top-class, and give Calzaghe a huge amount of credit. I suppose we'll just have to see who Calzaghe lines up against next...fact remains his record is still pretty shite though!

lvlarc_uk wrote:Do you really think Warren is that daft going for sub-par opp now...

What makes you think he's going to change the habit of a lifetime? One swallow doesnt make a summer...

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 21 Jun 2006, 14:11

lvlarc_uk wrote:Yes and he is. I'd understand where you're coming from, had he not just fought Jeff Lacy. WORLD recognised #2 SM. Do you really think Warren is that daft going for sub-par opp now, with perhaps only a few fights left in Joe.

YES he is.

They had Yusaf Mack lined up recently until he lost. Other names touted for this now postponed June date were Manfredo, Allan Green.... need I go on? There were other names mentioned that were decidedly average.

Mack was right up there with the fodder Calzaghe has already fought.

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=59834

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 21 Jun 2006, 14:40

Yes their was talk of fights with Green, and Manfredo but no contracts came close to being signed, did they? Johnson fight was almost delivered...

BBC reports, Warren claims a "huge" fight is in line for September, call me optimistic but I think it may be Taylor/Wright/Tarver/Kessler/Woods. Heres to hoping!

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 21 Jun 2006, 14:58

lvlarc_uk wrote:Yes and he is. I'd understand where you're coming from, had he not just fought Jeff Lacy. WORLD recognised #2 SM. Do you really think Warren is that daft going for sub-par opp now, with perhaps only a few fights left in Joe.

Of course! He's always gone for sub-par opposition, with the possible exception of Robin Reid.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 21 Jun 2006, 14:59

lvlarc_uk wrote:Yes their was talk of fights with Green, and Manfredo but no contracts came close to being signed, did they? Johnson fight was almost delivered...

BBC reports, Warren claims a "huge" fight is in line for September, call me optimistic but I think it may be Taylor/Wright/Tarver/Kessler/Woods. Heres to hoping!

Please no Tarver (a goner), no Taylor (Calzaghe needs to step up, not down), no Wright (dito).

Kessler, Woods: I really hope you are right. Kessler first, then Woods.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 21 Jun 2006, 17:03

lvlarc_uk wrote:Yes their was talk of fights with Green, and Manfredo but no contracts came close to being signed, did they? Johnson fight was almost delivered...

BBC reports, Warren claims a "huge" fight is in line for September, call me optimistic but I think it may be Taylor/Wright/Tarver/Kessler/Woods. Heres to hoping!

They had an agreement with Mack in place but he lost by TKO that weekend. Warren said so himself.

shoutout · Post by **shoutout** » 22 Jun 2006, 03:53

nickd wrote:
lvlarc_uk wrote:Yes their was talk of fights with Green, and Manfredo but no contracts came close to being signed, did they? Johnson fight was almost delivered...

BBC reports, Warren claims a "huge" fight is in line for September, call me optimistic but I think it may be Taylor/Wright/Tarver/Kessler/Woods. Heres to hoping!
They had an agreement with Mack in place but he lost by TKO that weekend. Warren said so himself.

yusef mack is a 2nd-rate fighter with glossy record & never should have even been considered!!

shoutout · Post by **shoutout** » 22 Jun 2006, 17:25

pundit wrote:
lvlarc_uk wrote:Yes their was talk of fights with Green, and Manfredo but no contracts came close to being signed, did they? Johnson fight was almost delivered...

BBC reports, Warren claims a "huge" fight is in line for September, call me optimistic but I think it may be Taylor/Wright/Tarver/Kessler/Woods. Heres to hoping!
Please no Tarver (a goner), no Taylor (Calzaghe needs to step up, not down), no Wright (dito).

Kessler, Woods: I really hope you are right. Kessler first, then Woods.

P4P top 5 guys like taylor & wright would do way more for joe's bid to enter international HOF!! and that's what this thread is about!!

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 22 Jun 2006, 19:24

fornicate the hall of fame if it's only American based.

shoutout · Post by **shoutout** » 22 Jun 2006, 21:42

Max Molyneux wrote:smeg the hall of fame if it's only American based.

did i say american based or did i say top 5 P4P?!? if calzaghe was a 126-130 pounder a win over manny pacquaio would surely get him in since pacman is a top 5 P4Per!!

last time i checked manny was not american!!

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 23 Jun 2006, 04:02

shoutout2u wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:smeg the hall of fame if it's only American based.
did i say american based or did i say top 5 P4P?!? if calzaghe was a 126-130 pounder a win over manny pacquaio would surely get him in since pacman is a top 5 P4Per!!

last time i checked manny was not american!!

A win over any Mexican gets you into the hall of fame.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 23 Jun 2006, 04:28

at least ppl are talking about Joe and the hof, which cannot be said of before when he was selling himself short. The win over Lacy - a quite threatening, powerful type - brought the best out of him and showed us true p4p ability. That and his longevity plus some above average names should keep him in the p4p rankings, not necessarily the hof.

There is a problem however. Whoever anyone beats, the winner never gets any credit unless he's a flashy Mayweather type whose victory can be immediately attributed to his incredible speed or whatever. So if Calzaghe beats a super middle peer, the guy either was no good after all, not well known enough in the first place. If he beats a top 10 p4p guy like Taylor or Wright, they were too small. If he beats a light heavy, I guess they were too slow (with Calzaghe being a fast super middle).

IMO if calzaghe had won a difficult 7-5 in rds decsion over Lacy he would've got more credit

Super middle's not weak - not now. Nobody thought Calzaghe-Lacy a weak matchup before the fight. Kessler is an accomplished young champion - how many in the game operate with his poise and maturity? The level of guys he's been fighting (somewhere between B and A) have been nearly knocking out Miguel Cotto! Andrade knocking out Otis Grant puts this guy on the map. Bute is a monster who made Kabary Salem quit. Beyer can box beautifully, despite his vulnerability.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 23 Jun 2006, 05:56

IMO if calzaghe had won a difficult 7-5 in rds decsion over Lacy he would've got more credit

Only if he was troubled and showed Heart to win.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 23 Jun 2006, 09:38

viciousmaussa wrote: There is a problem however. Whoever anyone beats, the winner never gets any credit unless he's a flashy Mayweather type whose victory can be immediately attributed to his incredible speed or whatever. So if Calzaghe beats a super middle peer, the guy either was no good after all, not well known enough in the first place. If he beats a top 10 p4p guy like Taylor or Wright, they were too small. If he beats a light heavy, I guess they were too slow (with Calzaghe being a fast super middle).

You know, as much as I appreciate your knowledgeable and normally balanced views, you could put this lame and somewhat whiny excuse to rest. Only because some people, including myself, doubt (and always doubted) the value of Lacy as an opponent to prove Calzaghe's greatness doesn't mean that NO fight would get Calzaghe recognition.

For example, if Kessler beats Beyer and Calzaghe and Kessler fight for the undisputed unified championship at super-middleweight, I wouldn't know how anybody could deny that the winner has achieved everything at super-middlweight that can be achieved.

Moreover, stepping up in weight and taking on a bigger beltholder almost always gets a fighter recognition. It would be no different with Calzaghe - unless he picks the visibly weakest 175 beltholder perhaps, which would be Tiozzo/Branco/Siaca at this juncture. But Adamek, Woods, Erdei would all do it for Joe, and at least Adamek and Woods appear to be available. I'd rather see complete Calzaghe his job at 168 first though.

Take my word for it: wins over Kessler and Woods/Adamek/Erdei, and I count Calzaghe as one of boxings' superstars of our time.

I doubt though that fighting middleweights like Taylor or Wright would do much for Calzaghe, UNLESS they step up to 168 well before fighting Joe and achieve something notable there (a la Tito who knocked out #2 Joppy before taking on Hopkins). This assessment pisses off some people, but these are the same people who are pissed off when you tell them that Lacy was far from the biggest challenge at 168. In fact, these are the people who get pissed off with any possible criticism, and who at the same time seem to be happy with and are prepared to defend every possible Warren pick, be it Peter Manfredo or Yusuf Mack or Allan Green.

Super middle's not weak - not now. Nobody thought Calzaghe-Lacy a weak matchup before the fight.

Sorry mate, but you know this is not true.

Cheers, P

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 23 Jun 2006, 11:12

pundit wrote:
viciousmaussa wrote: There is a problem however. Whoever anyone beats, the winner never gets any credit unless he's a flashy Mayweather type whose victory can be immediately attributed to his incredible speed or whatever. So if Calzaghe beats a super middle peer, the guy either was no good after all, not well known enough in the first place. If he beats a top 10 p4p guy like Taylor or Wright, they were too small. If he beats a light heavy, I guess they were too slow (with Calzaghe being a fast super middle).
You know, as much as I appreciate your knowledgeable and normally balanced views, you could put this lame and somewhat whiny excuse to rest. Only because some people, including myself, doubt (and always doubted) the value of Lacy as an opponent to prove Calzaghe's greatness doesn't mean that NO fight would get Calzaghe recognition.
For example, if Kessler beats Beyer and Calzaghe and Kessler fight for the undisputed unified championship at super-middleweight, I wouldn't know how anybody could deny that the winner has achieved everything at super-middlweight that can be achieved.

Moreover, stepping up in weight and taking on a bigger beltholder almost always gets a fighter recognition. It would be no different with Calzaghe - unless he picks the visibly weakest 175 beltholder perhaps, which would be Tiozzo/Branco/Siaca at this juncture. But Adamek, Woods, Erdei would all do it for Joe, and at least Adamek and Woods appear to be available. I'd rather see complete Calzaghe his job at 168 first though.

Take my word for it: wins over Kessler and Woods/Adamek/Erdei, and I count Calzaghe as one of boxings' superstars of our time.

I doubt though that fighting middleweights like Taylor or Wright would do much for Calzaghe, UNLESS they step up to 168 well before fighting Joe and achieve something notable there (a la Tito who knocked out #2 Joppy before taking on Hopkins). This assessment pisses off some people, but these are the same people who are pissed off when you tell them that Lacy was far from the biggest challenge at 168. In fact, these are the people who get pissed off with any possible criticism, and who at the same time seem to be happy with and are prepared to defend every possible Warren pick, be it Peter Manfredo or Yusuf Mack or Allan Green.

Super middle's not weak - not now. Nobody thought Calzaghe-Lacy a weak matchup before the fight.
Sorry mate, but you know this is not true.

Cheers, P

ok, but what i'm saying applies to more than Calzaghe-Lacy, which - I know - you were cynical about in the first place. for example, Hopkins-Tarver/Tito: Tarver was 'shot', Tito was 'a bum'. But it never seems to apply to a Roy Jones or Mayweather or Pacquiao. This could also end up applying to Kessler - you know, 'Siaca was limited', 'Lucas was shot'.

I'll admit, if Calzaghe wants to be great, he has to do more than beat 1/3 of the other champions. He has ground to make up if he wants to get in the Maussa Headspace Hall of Fame - I haven't toally forgiven him for not fighting Ottke. I mean it's absurd, having two extremely long reigning champs not even bothered about fighting.

shoutout · Post by **shoutout** » 23 Jun 2006, 17:35

Max Molyneux wrote:
shoutout2u wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:smeg the hall of fame if it's only American based.
did i say american based or did i say top 5 P4P?!? if calzaghe was a 126-130 pounder a win over manny pacquaio would surely get him in since pacman is a top 5 P4Per!!

last time i checked manny was not american!!
A win over any Mexican gets you into the hall of fame.

only below 130 pounds!!

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 24 Jun 2006, 05:42

shoutout2u wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:
shoutout2u wrote: did i say american based or did i say top 5 P4P?!? if calzaghe was a 126-130 pounder a win over manny pacquaio would surely get him in since pacman is a top 5 P4Per!!

last time i checked manny was not american!!
A win over any Mexican gets you into the hall of fame.
only below 130 pounds!!

Not for guys like JJC.

shoutout · Post by **shoutout** » 24 Jun 2006, 20:34

Max Molyneux wrote:
shoutout2u wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote: A win over any Mexican gets you into the hall of fame.
only below 130 pounds!!
Not for guys like JJC.

not sure, but i think you mean chavez jr...sure, he is well over 130 pounds but the only HOF he will make is BOB ARUM'S HALL OF HYPE!!

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 25 Jun 2006, 04:59

I meant Chavez Sr.

Worked for Tszyu.

HOW NEAR TO HALL OF FAME STATUS IS JOE CALZAGHE?

WHAT DOES CALZAGHE NEED TO ASSURE HALL OF FAME STATUS?