Bert Gilroy - exploding the myth

[prewarboxing]

I have meaning to address this issue for some considerable time now and apologies if the post is a little lengthy for some people or of no interest to others. If so, please ignore.

Bert Gilroy was a Scottish boxer of some renown in the years surrounding the second world war. He was a very good boxer in his day, and I rate him and respect him for all that he achieved. However, I am very unhappy with the way in which his achievements have been grossly exaggerated, and as a historian of the sport I feel that this needs to be put right before the man continues his upwards spiral towards legendary status, for he does not deserve it.

If you look at the facebook page that has been set up for him you will read the following :

“BERT GILROY Inducted into the World Boxing Hall of Fame, only the 6th British fighter in History.

No mention of Bert's Career or Title Stats, which is always normal when reporting on an Athlete's Achievements. Likewise they neglected to allow any reference to Gilroy's place and/or fights with Jock McAvoy, Freddie Mills, Bruce Woodcock, the Henry Cooper, Frank Bruno, Nigel Benn and Tyson Fury of their Day, in the 1940s.

No, no need to let people identify Gilroy's connection to these British/English Greats... because their Not In!

the reluctance to credit Gilroy is still a blight on British Boxing and it's Blatant Bias and Rampant Corruption, so the old means of Journalistic marginalising tactics are employed still”.

This statement is in response to a BBC news article that reported that Gilroy had been inducted into the World Boxing Hall of Fame alongside fellow inductees Roberto Duran and Julian Jackson.

Yes, you read that right, Robert Duran, Julian Jackson and ………….Bert Gilroy.

He was only the sixth British fighter to be inducted at the time, alongside Bob Fitzsimmons, Jack Kid Berg, Randolph Turpin, Ken Buchanan and Barry McGuigan. This puts him ahead of Jimmy Wilde, Len Harvey, Ted Kid Lewis, Henry Cooper, Benny Lynch, Howard Winstone, Nigel Benn, Chris Eubank, Jock McAvoy, Freddie Mills, Jim Driscoll, Freddie Welsh and a multitude of others. The facebook page almost mocks these great fighters when it states that “No, no need to let people identify Gilroy's connection to these British/English Greats... because their Not In!”

So, who was Bert Gilroy and what, exactly, did he achieve?

I will state right from the start that I am not going to touch upon the charges made against the Board of Control, and those in England who supposedly ran the sport, regarding the way in which, supposedly, Bert Gilroy was constantly discriminated against. He wasn’t. That is all nonsense. The claims are ludicrous and without foundation. I am perfectly prepared to discuss this in great detail should the need arise but for now I will limit my contribution towards an assessment of Bert’s career within the ring.

Nor do I want to touch upon the credibility of this “Boxing Hall of Fame”. They seem to admit boxers into their lists without even carrying out the most basic checks about the boxer’s achievements and whether he deserves to be admitted.

According to the facebook page Bert Gilroy crossed gloves with Jock McAvoy, Freddie Mills and Bruce Woodcock. Well he certainly boxed two of them and I will evaluate these contests later. The writer is angry that the BBC did not list Gilroy’s achievements, his ‘Title stats’, within their article. In my view, the BBC would have struggled to find any, and to be candid about the matter, they would not have found anything to warrant his inclusion to this Boxing Hall of Fame.
I think that the only reason that Gilroy gained this distinction as an inductee into the Boxing Hall of Fame is because of a long-running and, frankly, embarrassing campaign to make this man appear far better than he actually was. And so many people have fallen for it:

BoxRec post from Bitplayer in 2016 asking users to vote in a fictional middleweight tournament of all time greats :
Marvin Hagler Vs Paul Pender
Ken Overlin Vs Eddie Risko
Canelo Álvarez Vs Mike McCallum
Carmen Basilio Vs BERT GILROY
Spider Webb Vs Alan Minter
Stanley Ketchel Vs Dan Creedon
Charles Humez Vs Dick Tiger
Peter Mueller Vs Jock Malone

Really? Carmen Basilio versus Bert Gilroy in an all-time great Middleweight tourney?

BoxRec post by surfbat in 2014 listing his greatest 50 fighters of all time who did not win a world title:

1. Sam Langford 2. Mike Gibbons 3. Charley Burley 4. Packey McFarland 5. Holman Williams
6. Cocoa Kid 7. Tommy Gibbons 8. Joe Jeannette 9. Lew Tendler 10. Jack Blackburn 11. Young Peter Jackson 12. Wesley Ramey 13. Eddie Booker 14. Willie Joyce 15. Wee Willie Davies
16. Kid Norfolk 17. Billy Petrolle 18. Peerless Jim Driscoll 19. Dave Shade 20. Jack Chase
21. Dave Holly 22. Leo Houck 23. Lloyd Marshall 24. Sam McVey 25. Peter Jackson
26. Bud Taylor 27. Jimmy Bivins 28. Oscar Gardner 29. Bert Lytell 30. Aaron Wade
31. Jimmy Leto 32. Harry Wills 33. Freddie Dawson 34. Lou Bogash 35. Bennie Briscoe
36. Tommy Yarosz 37. Joe Choynski 38. Joe Shugrue 39. Carl Tremaine 40. Owen Moran
41. Leach Cross 42. Bernard Docusen 43. Dave Sands 44. Al Gainer 45. George Godfrey
46. Jock McAvoy 47. BERT GILROY 48. Benny Yanger 49. Cuddy DeMarco 50. Shorty Hogue

Really ? Bert Gilroy the fourth best British fighter never to win a world title?


I could quite many more instances of this nonsense but it would become boring.


Let me address three areas which will properly set Gilroy into his correct historical perspective.
1. What were his actual achievements?
2. Is there any actual evidence for some of the claims made about him?
3. Where does he actually rank in a list of all-time greats.

Regarding his achievements, as far as I can make out they are as follows :

He was the Scottish Middleweight champion and The Scottish light-heavyweight champion.
He won a British Middleweight title eliminator in 1940.
He did indeed, as stated in the BBC article used to justify his Boxing Hall of Fame inclusion, box against Bruce Woodcock, Freddie Mills, Marcel Cerdan and Don Cockell.
He was ranked as the number one light-heavyweight in Britain in the Boxing News rankings for Aug 6 1947 and Sept 8 1948.
He won 71 of the 102 contests that I have traced for him.

Looking specifically at each of these achievements I have the following comments.
When he won the Scottish Middleweight title in 1938 he beat Tommy Smith of Clackmannan on points over 15 rounds. Going into the fight Bert had established a run of sixteen wins and a draw since his last defeat. Many of these wins had come inside the distance against some fairly good men. He was a worthy contender for the Scottish title. Bert put in an excellent performance, outclassing Smith throughout the contest. However, Smith had boxed six times previously in 1938, losing four of them, with two stoppage losses against mid-ranking English Middleweights, and so he clearly wasn’t one of Scotland’s better champions at the time. Gilroy did not have too much to beat in my opinion.
It is a similar story with his Scottish Light-heavyweight title victory. Gilroy beat Jock McCusker on points over 15 rounds on March 15th 1945. Going into the bout McCusker had lost four of his previous eight bouts, including losses to Tommy Logie and Billy McLean. Neither Logie nor McLean were men of status and I find it hard to understand why McCusker got his title shot at all.
My impression here is that despite being a two-weight Scottish champion, Gilroy beat men whose class was limited and that neither achievement places him above many other Scottish champions of the period. Based on these performances alone, there were very many better Scottish champions than Gilroy.

Gilroy beat Ginger Sadd in an eliminator for the British Middleweight title in 1940. He beat Sadd on points over twelve rounds on Mar 6th 1940 at Newcastle. Going into the contest, Sadd had lost his previous three contests, points losses to Jim Berry (Tyne Dock), Fred Henneberry (Australia) and Dick Turpin (Leamington). He had won only two of his previous seven bouts, although one of these was a points victory over Freddie Mills. Sadd had been a decent fighter throughout the 1930s but he was shot by 1940. I fail to see why he had been nominated to contest this eliminator. It was probably because of the win over Mills. At the time, in the early stages of the war, many boxers were joining the services and not all of them were available, or willing, to train assiduously for a British title opportunity. The eliminator between Gilroy and Sadd, to me, smacks of the Board trying to pair available fighters together to maintain interest in the British title during a difficult period. The only body in the UK that ranked boxers during the period, the National Boxing Association, had published their latest middleweight rankings just eight weeks prior to this eliminator. They listed the top eight boxers at middleweight and neither Sadd, nor Gilroy, appeared within their lists.
I do not think that the inclusion of Gilroy in a British middleweight eliminator makes him stand out as being one of the finest British fighters of all time and nor do I think that his victory over Sadd was particularly noteworthy, and nor, do I think, did his victory improve his status one jot.

Yes he did box Freddie Mills, Bruce Woodcock, Marcel Cerdan and Don Cockell. However, Mills stopped him in eight rounds in 1944, Woodcock knocked him out in six rounds in 1944 and then hammered him again in two rounds in 1946, Cerdan knocked him out in four rounds in 1947 and Cockell outpointed him over eight rounds in 1948. Gilroy did not win one of these five contests and he was stopped in four of them.
I do not think I need to say any more on this, except to say that these were among the best men Gilroy faced in his career. I would argue that his best wins, throughout his entire career, along with that against Sadd, were the ones against Roy Mills, Al Marson, Ben Valentine, Charlie Parkin, Ken Robinson and Paul Schaeffer. All good fighters, but none of them anywhere near world-class. Every time he faced a man who had been, or was to become, a British Champion, he lost. As well as those previously discussed against Mills, Woodcock and Cockell, he had further losses to Dave McCleave, and Vince Hawkins.

One cannot deny that Gilroy was, for around a year or so, the number one ranked light-heavyweight challenger in Britain. At the same time of these men were rated number one at their weight in Britain:

Charlie Squire, Ken Shaw, Johnny Molloy, Peter Fallon and Gwyn Williams.

Like Bert, none of these became British champions either. Like Bert, three of them never got to box for the British title and the two that did both lost. To be the number one ranked man at your weight in Britain does not make you one of the greatest boxers of all time. Far from it, many men achieved this status and most of them are long forgotten.

Yes, Bert did win 71 of 102 contests. But he lost 25 of them. These are some of the men that stopped him during his career, they didn’t just beat him, they stopped him :

Jim Brady, Johnny Clements, Mick Hasson, Dan Gillespie.

Anyone reading this ever heard of any of them?

Gilroy lost every contest that he fought against a man of genuine class. Stephane Olek’s name can be added to those of Mills, Woodcock, Cerdan, Cockell, Hawkins and McCleave.

So I maintain that Gilroy was a decent level British fighter who didn’t beat anyone of note but fought at a pretty high level. He deserved his Scottish title triumphs even though he had no-one to beat and he deserved his British number one ranking even though many others achieved the same thing, and like Gilroy, without going on to achieve anything special. I would probably rank Gilroy as being in the best 1500 British boxers of all time. I would rank him somewhere between 1,000 and 1,500 in terms of his overall position.

I do not think that he should go anywhere near a ring in which Carmen Basilio is in the opposite corner, and I do not think that he was the fourth best British fighter never to win a world title.

He does not appear in any of the Ring Magazine’s annual top ten ratings. So why is he in the Boxing Hall of Fame?

He did not box 238 times, losing 27, as stated on the BBC website. Where did they get that information from?

He never boxed for any title other than a Scottish one. So why does he appear in the Boxing Hall of Fame?

He never beat any man above the status of Jim Berry or Ben Valentine. So why does he appear in the Boxing Hall of Fame?

He was not, as has been claimed, rated number one in Britain for ten years.

He was not, as has been claimed, “The MOST Cheated, Avoided and FEARED Fighter in British Boxing History!”

He was Bert Gilroy, a very good fighter, but nothing more.

Finally, I do not think that he should included within any Boxing Hall of Fame and it does not surprise me that the BBC could not find a list of his achievements to justify his inclusion. There weren’t any.

Miles Templeton

[Flump]

Very good read Miles. I remember many years ago on this site, and I'm afraid I can recall no details, there was a poster who almost pathologically raised Gilroy's name as being some kind of Sam Langford style uncrowned champion, and was largely met with derision by other posters.

I can see why you would be wound up by this. But conning the public has been a staple of boxing, particularly since the introduction of alternate universe World titles for British fighters not good enough to contest the real thing since the early 90's. Good on you for raising this.

[Marlin Starfish]

Absolutely superb. Went back and forth with this guy on ESB/BF24 for years, he literally made stuff up as he went along! Hero worship of his grandfather or whatnot.

[Bladder]

BoxRec post by Bladder in 2010 :
Had Broadribb handled Bert Gilroy he would be up there with Greb, Robinson etc ..... if he isn't already that is.

Really? Bert Gilroy up there with Harry Greb and Sugar Ray Robinson? If he isn’t already?

If he isn’t already? Don’t make me laugh. Of course he isn’t.

I could quite many more instances of this nonsense but it would become boring.

Miles Templeton

A few days ago on this forum, someone misread a comment about Freddie Mills being shot (as in past his best) and steamed in with the bizarre response of: “Mills WAS shot. He didn't die of a heart attack did he !”
I commented that it was possibly the world's greatest ever 'whoosh' moment.

Sorry Miles, but it looks like I now have to hand the crown for the world's greatest ever 'whoosh' moment over to you, if you think for one moment I was being serious in any way with that post.

That comment was a piss-take between myself and whoever was posting as 'Darling', as even as far back as 2010 we were treating all this Gilroy nonsense as a joke. If you read the three page thread from the beginning, you will see where it started. Here is the thread you lifted my quote from:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=126811

Apart from you totally misunderstanding the meaning behind my comment, I completely agree with all that you've wrote but you've had a shocker there Miles by lifting my comment to emphasise the deifying of Bert Gilroy.

[prewarboxing]

BoxRec post by Bladder in 2010 :
Had Broadribb handled Bert Gilroy he would be up there with Greb, Robinson etc ..... if he isn't already that is.

Really? Bert Gilroy up there with Harry Greb and Sugar Ray Robinson? If he isn’t already?

If he isn’t already? Don’t make me laugh. Of course he isn’t.

I could quite many more instances of this nonsense but it would become boring.

Miles Templeton

A few days ago on this forum, someone misread a comment about Freddie Mills being shot (as in past his best) and steamed in with the bizarre response of: “Mills WAS shot. He didn't die of a heart attack did he !”
I commented that it was possibly the world's greatest ever 'whoosh' moment.

Sorry Miles, but it looks like I now have to hand the crown for the world's greatest ever 'whoosh' moment over to you, if you think for one moment I was being serious in any way with that post.

That comment was a piss-take between myself and whoever was posting as 'Darling', as even as far back as 2010 we were treating all this Gilroy nonsense as a joke. If you read the three page thread from the beginning, you will see where it started. Here is the thread you lifted my quote from:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=126811

Apart from you totally misunderstanding the meaning behind my comment, I completely agree with all that you've wrote but you've had a shocker there Miles by lifting my comment to emphasise the deifying of Bert Gilroy.

Sorry Bladder! I didn't get the context at all, just picking up a post from years ago whilst undertaking a search for old Gilroy posts. I apologise to you unequivocally and wholeheartedly and congratulate you on the fact that your pisstaking was so excellent in its irony that it had me completely taken in.

No offence intended whatsoever.

Thank you for supporting me on this. It needs sorting out once and for all

kind regards my friend

Miles

[Bladder]

A few days ago on this forum, someone misread a comment about Freddie Mills being shot (as in past his best) and steamed in with the bizarre response of: “Mills WAS shot. He didn't die of a heart attack did he !”
I commented that it was possibly the world's greatest ever 'whoosh' moment.

Sorry Miles, but it looks like I now have to hand the crown for the world's greatest ever 'whoosh' moment over to you, if you think for one moment I was being serious in any way with that post.

That comment was a piss-take between myself and whoever was posting as 'Darling', as even as far back as 2010 we were treating all this Gilroy nonsense as a joke. If you read the three page thread from the beginning, you will see where it started. Here is the thread you lifted my quote from:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=126811

Apart from you totally misunderstanding the meaning behind my comment, I completely agree with all that you've wrote but you've had a shocker there Miles by lifting my comment to emphasise the deifying of Bert Gilroy.

Sorry Bladder! I didn't get the context at all, just picking up a post from years ago whilst undertaking a search for old Gilroy posts. I apologise to you unequivocally and wholeheartedly and congratulate you on the fact that your pisstaking was so excellent in its irony that it had me completely taken in.

No offence intended whatsoever.

Thank you for supporting me on this. It needs sorting out once and for all

kind regards my friend

Miles

No worries, but I'm now concerned that if you misread it, then maybe Jim did too and he accepted it as some sort of verification, and I have unwittingly assisted in perpetuating the Gilroy myth.

I'm also curious to see if the other two guys you quoted will step forward with some comments. Especially the top 50 guy, as if it's who I think it is, he puts himself across as some sort of modern day boxing sage that many buy into. He hasn't done himself any favours though by including Gilroy in that list.

At the end of the day, Gilroy was a good domestic level fighter that his grandson has every right to be proud of but he has gone so far over the top and for so long, that he has almost become a joke figure.

[klompton]

Ive been saying this for years everytime Gilroys name is mentioned by his delusional grandson. One my favorite chestnuts by him is complaining that Gilroy was only allowed to weigh 12 pounds more than Cerdan (a guy who spent most of his career at 147 and thats why he was dominated and stopped. Had he been allowed to come in as a heavyweight he would have won...

[nobleart1978]

I have apologised for mis reading the freddie mills post. You will find my apology on the freddie mills post.

[Marlin Starfish]

Someone asking questions of you Miles over on ESB (poster name: Unforgiven)

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/b ... t-20504627

[Cap]

Well, if anyone knows the skinny on Gilroy it'll be Miles Templeton esq.

Cap

[stac]

In my opinion, which probably does not count for much, Gilroy would almost certainly not make a British Hall of Fame let alone an international one. I could probably list off the top of my head a 100 fighters probably more worthy. This is not intended as a slight on the above just a mere statement of opinion based on fact.

[prewarboxing]

Without being in the least bit facetious, as I have nothing at all against Gilroy, I could name 1,000 better all-time British fighters, never mind 100.

Miles Templeton

[BitPlayer]

I just want to add a bit of context to that tournament (which I never came close to finishing because there wasn't much interest, and I ended up being a bit unhappy with the selection of fighters I made), I basically included anyone suggested, I think I ended up including 128 fighters, so naturally there was a lot of fairly weak inclusions.

There were quite a few people included that weren't middleweight ATGs in any sense. The match ups were also random. Like I said I think the list I went with wasn't the best in the end.

Thanks for the detailed post BTW.

[prewarboxing]

I just want to add a bit of context to that tournament (which I never came close to finishing because there wasn't much interest, and I ended up being a bit unhappy with the selection of fighters I made), I basically included anyone suggested, I think I ended up including 128 fighters, so naturally there was a lot of fairly weak inclusions.

There were quite a few people included that weren't middleweight ATGs in any sense. The match ups were also random. Like I said I think the list I went with wasn't the best in the end.

Thanks for the detailed post BTW.

It is a pleasure bitplayer. Thankfully we can move on now and forget about the garbage that has been spouted on here for years about Gilroy's so called greatness. He now needs to be removed from that ludicrous Hall of Fame that seems to have elected him without even the most basic of checks. I would recommend that the book on him also be avoided unless one wants to read yet more of the same twaddle. The great shame of this is that a decent fighters genuine legacy has been sullied by a fictitious rewrite of his life and times. It does him a great disservice

Miles Templeton

[orbtastic]

Miles, have you over posted an ATG list? I'd be interested to see if you deviate from some of the lists you usually see.

What's your view on Jimmy Wilde?

[prewarboxing]

I don't go in for the ATG, Hall of Fame and mythical fight stuff I am afraid. Doesn't interest me at all. I rate Wilde very highly.

Miles Templeton

[orbtastic]

Probably explains why I’ve not seen one then! That said I’ve see you say such and wouldn’t fit in a top 100 but I know it’s a figure of speech.