How early could Holmes have beaten Ali?

[Rocky Balboa]

Larry was a sparring partner of Ali for some years B4 they actually fought each other. Larry has stated that he had the beating of Ali a few years before their bout took place.

What is the earliest stage Larry could have beaten Ali? If I'm correct, I think Holmes was sparring Ali for as much as 6/7 years b4 they fought?

[BoxBuzz]

The REASON he could eventually beat Ali is BECAUSE he was learning and eventually transcending the master due largely to age. For those who consider Larry to be in the top 3 (and you know who you are) The only reason he gets to that state of skill is from those years.

But as to your question I think it may be hard to determine exactly. Maybe around the Shavers fight? Larry was getting better while Ali was on the downside. Would have been competitive then I think.

[Expug]

I think Holmes would have beaten Ali from 1978 on.

[MEISINGER]

I think Holmes would have beaten Ali from 1978 on.

i agree.larry was still learning from ali but ali was slipping.
1978 ali would of been beaten by larry.
interesting note larry said he was getting the best of ali by early 1976

[-KOKid-]

Yes, Holmes says in his book that he reckons he could have beaten Ali from 1974 on. But he doesn't mention what is common knowledge - that Ali would often let his sparringpartners get the better of him during sessions so he could work on his weaknesess. Norman Mailer points this out in the "When We Were Kings" documentary.
If Ali turned up the heat, he likely would have made things a whole lot more difficult for Holmes during their sessions.
And Holmes isn't exactly the most modest guy around either.

I'd say Holmes was the better fighter of the two after "Thrilla in Manilla". Ali was never the same after that fight. However, I doubt Holmes would get a decision over Ali until 1978, when Ali was far gone as a fighter.
Ali's decline from "Manilla" to the first Spinks fight in '78 was very rapid - like two different fighters entirely in just 24-30 months.
While witnessing his decline at the time one might fail no take notice, but looking back now - man, he went downhill fast during the final years of his career!

-KOKid-

[Ambling Alp]

Someone else brought up this subject just a few months ago. I thought around 1977 is when they would have been even.
Holmes would have no chance in 1974. He was just getting going himself and Ali was the best heavyweight in the world. (Sparring means absolutely nothing)

I agree that the 3rd Frazier fight in 1975 accelerated his decline. He was 33 and would have started to decline anyway, but not as quickly.
In 1976, he still could fight in spurts and would have been able to beat an inexperienced Holmes. In 1977, Ali declined further and Holmes was improving so they may have even by then. Certainly by 1978 Holmes was better.

[dr_devious]

I think Holmes would have beated Ali in 1976 or 1977, not before

[pundit]

5 am - easy.

[KOJOE90]

Someone else brought up this subject just a few months ago.

I think that may have been me.

Link.

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33911

[BoxBuzz]

WE don't have to rely on a fella like Norman Mailer. Decagon.....we are fortunate to have you within our midst for 100% pure distilled facts, marinated in truth with a healthy side order of Straight Talk and no unsavory hint of BS.

[Tantum]

I would say 77

[mattym]

Oh, I've heard the story about Ali sucking on purpose in the gym. I've seen the sparring sessions, and yes, he did suck. I just think that to take the whole "Ali sucked on purpose" theory as fact instead of a possibility is akin to saying that Christopher Columbus discovered that the world was round.

he didnt "suck", he was learning to teach his body to endure punishment and suffering. What the fgreatest of all time get out of going in and smashing his sparring partners lights out like everyone knows he can do anyway. He would never have been prepared for fights with Frazier or Foreman if that was his attitude.

What i mean, is, when you're Ali, there is no need for you to go smashing through your sparring partners, and breaking their noses, you are their to learn, and should take it as an opportunity to slowly build up skills in an atmosphere of little and limited aggression. He was learning to cope with huge amounts of physical punishment and pain. Hes a clever guy, and dec, remember, the general rule is, if Ali did it, it most certainly did not suck.

[Expug]

I hear what you are saying, but I think by laying on the ropes and at times possibly going through the motions while sparring, Ali allowed himself to take some uneccesary punishment.
In the gym , I always felt that the main differince between sparring and a real fight was , when you hit your partner with a real good shot, and maybe wobble him a little, it is not neccesary to jump on him and belt him out of there. You can back off for a moment. This way you can get some good work in without destroying all your sparring partners. Of course this is good in theory , but sometimes guys go all out.
I read somewhere, that Ali used to lay on the ropes and take shots way too much in the gym.

[pound per pound]

This is a good question. I beleive Holmes could have beaten Ali after the third Frazier fight for sure.

[generic screen name]

I agree w/1978, maybe 1977. The brutal Frazier war took alot from Ali.

Ali would've made a fight of it in 1977, in the fight in 1980 he took everything from Holmes, when he had nothing in the tank.

[revporl]

I brought this question up ages ago, so it must have had at least 3 threads! I reckon from '77 onwards. Ali looked pretty good against Shavers (he could still outsmart people then, and his hands did what they were told), but crap against Evangelista. So I reckon Holmes would have edged him around that point. I watched Ali vs Spinks II the other day, and its obvious that although Ali really got himself in shape for that one, his speed and coordination were thoughraly (?!) shot by then.