Tony Bellew working with the WBC to potentially create a new "super cruiserweight" division!

[punchoutsb]

I get both sides of the argument for and against this proposition and am kind of torn. On one hand adding another weight class will only water down the sport. But, I get where a guy who is between 210-220 wouldn't be able to compete against 250-260 regardless of skill.

Wait...what?

[sykessta]

Not regardless of skill should have chose my words more carefully, but a highly skilled fighter who fights at 215's skills can be negated by someone who weighs 260 by getting laid on all night.

[H8Usernames]

Add to the credibility of the sport?

What the f*ck is wrong with people like you?

You've never even strapped on a pair of gloves. What the profanity is wrong with.me? What rhe profanity is wrong with you? Go watch kickboxing, boxing doesnt need you.

You don't 'strap on' gloves, you lace them up you helmet.

You're probably getting them confused with your dildos.

I didn't associate the term strapping on with dildos, this is something that comes from your mind not mine. I won't judge you for using devices like those, if that kind of thing makes you happy then more power to you. This is however a boxingforum and not a kinkysex forum and I'm really not interested in your sexlife so I reccomend that you find someone else somewhere else to discuss these things with.

[jujigatame]

Not regardless of skill should have chose my words more carefully, but a highly skilled fighter who fights at 215's skills can be negated by someone who weighs 260 by getting laid on all night.

That highly skilled fighter can fight at CW if they want. 15 pounds is not a difficult cut for someone of that size.

There would be a much better argument for this if weigh-ins were day-of-fight or if there were other mechanisms in place to prevent weight cutting. If everyone was somehow forced to compete at their natural weight, I could see an argument for moving CW back to 190 and adding a SCW division at 210 or 215. But as the sport stands right now, no thank you.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Maybe instead of the slow march towards irrelevance boxing should just go ahead and get it over with.

Super cruiser
Super heavy

Mandatory 8 wba champions in both divisions

Live action on DAZN!!!

[sykessta]

Not regardless of skill should have chose my words more carefully, but a highly skilled fighter who fights at 215's skills can be negated by someone who weighs 260 by getting laid on all night.

That highly skilled fighter can fight at CW if they want. 15 pounds is not a difficult cut for someone of that size.

There would be a much better argument for this if weigh-ins were day-of-fight or if there were other mechanisms in place to prevent weight cutting. If everyone was somehow forced to compete at their natural weight, I could see an argument for moving CW back to 190 and adding a SCW division at 210 or 215. But as the sport stands right now, no thank you.

You have a point. Possibly moving the CW limit to 210 or 215 maybe would make the division more relevant and avoid adding yet another weight class?

[jujigatame]

There's no point in doing that as is, there's nobody who would benefit from fighting at CW who can't already make the 200 pound limit. Guys who naturally weigh in the 225-235 pound range are well suited to HW. Anyone lower than that has the option of cutting to CW if they want to.

[Enlightened-One]

Guys who naturally weigh in the 225-235 pound range are well suited to HW.

Deontay Wilder is the only heavyweight fighter competing within the last decade (nine years and ten months to be precise) to have successfully engaged in a world heavyweight title fight weighing less then 225lbs.

And he only ever did it three times.

The following list represents the mathematical average weights of the winners/champions of the world heavyweight title fights (including the WBA variants) that occurred within the last twenty years (rounded to the nearest pound):

• WBA = 247lbs
• WBC = 240lbs
• IBF = 242lbs
• WBO = 242lbs

The weight limit of the cruiserweight division is 200lbs.

Do those statistics not tell you something?

[sykessta]

Like I said, bump cruiser up to 215-220, and LHW to 185. Not sure how much of an effect it will have on the sport as a whole or if its even a rational thing to do but I figure it could be good competition for guys who are smaller naturally at HW.

[Ruthless-RKO]

I get both sides of the argument for and against this proposition and am kind of torn. On one hand adding another weight class will only water down the sport. But, I get where a guy who is between 210-220 wouldn't be able to compete against 250-260 regardless of skill.

Povetkin (224) just KO'd Whyte (252)

Everyone he has fought since Chagaev (bar Huck) has weighed more than him, with one or two around the same weight.

Same with Deontay Wilder

David Haye (210) KO'd Chisora (247)

These are probably the best examples..

[Bard of Boxrec]

There are many, many examples.

It’s just a stupid redundant argument made umpteen times by a guy who delights in stupid, redundant arguing.

[jujigatame]

Guys who naturally weigh in the 225-235 pound range are well suited to HW.

Deontay Wilder is the only heavyweight fighter competing within the last decade (nine years and ten months to be precise) to have successfully engaged in a world heavyweight title fight weighing less then 225lbs.

And he only ever did it three times.

The following list represents the mathematical average weights of the winners/champions of the world heavyweight title fights (including the WBA variants) that occurred within the last twenty years (rounded to the nearest pound):

• WBA = 247lbs
• WBC = 240lbs
• IBF = 242lbs
• WBO = 242lbs

The weight limit of the cruiserweight division is 200lbs.

Do those statistics not tell you something?

Me: Guys weighing 225+ are well suited to HW.

You: Barely anyone ever wins a HW title under 225!!

And somehow you framed this as a disagreement.

[H8Usernames]

The mathematics and logic are very simple:

Weight in pounds Weight incriment in %

Heavyweight Unlimited Unlimited
Cruiserweight 200 14.20%
Light heavyweight 175 4.20%
Super middleweight 168 5%
Middleweight 160 3.90%
Junior middleweight 154 4.80%
Welterweight 147 5%
Junior welterweight 140 3.70%
Lightweight 135 3.80%
Junior lightweight 130 3.20%
Featherweight 126 3.30%
Junior featherweight 122 3.40%
Bantamweight 118 2.60%
Junior bantamweight 115 2.70%
Flyweight 112 3.70%
Junior flyweight 108 2.90%
Strawweight 105 2.90%
Light minimumweight 102 Lowest weight

So the logic is that God or nature creates alot of great small men who deserve lots of divisions and championships but then when men grow bigger than 175 pounds then weight stops mattering as much.

This is really nonsense. More weight divisions and champions do not hurt boxing. If the champions and the weight divisions are irrelevant then people simply dont notice them.

A nice way to continue with the above math would be with the creation of a Jr Cruiserweight and a super cruiserweight division.

Super Cruiserweight 210 7.70%
Cruiserweight 195 5.40%
Jr Cruiserweight 185 5.70%

But no doing things based on mathametics and logic is ofcourse stupid. Everything has to be based on how big some fighters fan bases are right?

[jujigatame]

So the logic is that God or nature creates alot of great small men who deserve lots of divisions and championships but then when men grow bigger than 175 pounds then weight stops mattering as much.

This is really nonsense. More weight divisions and champions do not hurt boxing. If the champions and the weight divisions are irrelevant then people simply dont notice them.

I would argue more weight divisions and champions absolutely DO hurt boxing. Any sports fandom needs to know who the top teams/individuals are. If that becomes excessively muddled or unclear, people lose interest. There already being too many classes is not an argument for adding more.

Also, beyond that, it seems like there is a weight level (~240 or so) at which point more weight becomes a hindrance to a fighter's body rather than a help. Which is why we've basically never seen 300+ pound HW champs.

[sykessta]

There are many, many examples.

It’s just a stupid redundant argument made umpteen times by a guy who delights in stupid, redundant arguing.

Who me or EO?

[littlepug]

If you want the big money that’s available at heavyweight then you have to fight the big men that reside there otherwise get a work ethic and make weight like everyone else has to.

[Bard of Boxrec]

There are many, many examples.

It’s just a stupid redundant argument made umpteen times by a guy who delights in stupid, redundant arguing.

Who me or EO?

EO

[Enlightened-One]

Guys who naturally weigh in the 225-235 pound range are well suited to HW.

Deontay Wilder is the only heavyweight fighter competing within the last decade (nine years and ten months to be precise) to have successfully engaged in a world heavyweight title fight weighing less then 225lbs.

And he only ever did it three times.

The following list represents the mathematical average weights of the winners/champions of the world heavyweight title fights (including the WBA variants) that occurred within the last twenty years (rounded to the nearest pound):

• WBA = 247lbs
• WBC = 240lbs
• IBF = 242lbs
• WBO = 242lbs

The weight limit of the cruiserweight division is 200lbs.

Do those statistics not tell you something?

Me: Guys weighing 225+ are well suited to HW.

You: Barely anyone ever wins a HW title under 225!!

And somehow you framed this as a disagreement.

Nope. I didn’t frame it as a disagreement.

And nope again, you didn’t say 225lbs+, you actually wrote 225lbs to 235lbs.

Anyway I’m merely pointing out the fact that 240lbs+ guys are well suited to the heavyweight division.

Those that are lighter typically achieve less success.

The numbers don’t lie.

[Enlightened-One]

There are many, many examples.

It’s just a stupid redundant argument made umpteen times by a guy who delights in stupid, redundant arguing.

Who me or EO?

EO

So you’re admitting you can’t disprove any of my stats?

You definitely can’t cite more examples than I can.

And you won’t even try.

[Enlightened-One]

I get both sides of the argument for and against this proposition and am kind of torn. On one hand adding another weight class will only water down the sport. But, I get where a guy who is between 210-220 wouldn't be able to compete against 250-260 regardless of skill.

Povetkin (224) just KO'd Whyte (252)

Everyone he has fought since Chagaev (bar Huck) has weighed more than him, with one or two around the same weight.

Same with Deontay Wilder

David Haye (210) KO'd Chisora (247)

These are probably the best examples..

Don’t you agree that the aggregated stats I’ve cited for the heavyweight division for the last twenty years are factually accurate?

And don’t you agree that there are exceptions to almost every aspect of life, but they never undermine the general rule (otherwise they wouldn’t be exceptions)?

If you agree with both points, why mention two non-title bouts?

And why mention Povetkin’s name when he’s never won a legitimate version of the world heavyweight championship?

No one is pretending that it’s categorically impossible for a small man to beat a much bigger man. No one has made this claim in this thread.

The stats, however, irrefutably prove that it’s a fairly rare occurrence (as per the heavyweight title stats for the last twenty years).

[H8Usernames]

So the logic is that God or nature creates alot of great small men who deserve lots of divisions and championships but then when men grow bigger than 175 pounds then weight stops mattering as much.

This is really nonsense. More weight divisions and champions do not hurt boxing. If the champions and the weight divisions are irrelevant then people simply dont notice them.

I would argue more weight divisions and champions absolutely DO hurt boxing. Any sports fandom needs to know who the top teams/individuals are. If that becomes excessively muddled or unclear, people lose interest. There already being too many classes is not an argument for adding more.

Also, beyond that, it seems like there is a weight level (~240 or so) at which point more weight becomes a hindrance to a fighter's body rather than a help. Which is why we've basically never seen 300+ pound HW champs.

In 2007 the weight catagory light minimum weight was established. Please explain how this has hurt boxing.

In 1987 minimumweight was established and in 1980 cruiserweight was established. Please explain how this has hurt boxing.

The IBA had a superheavyweight champion and have a supercruiserweight division. Please explain how this hurts or has hurt boxing.

Explain how Chagaev and Oquendo are hurtig boxing with their fake championship?

Fact of the matter is that none of this has hurt boxing the least.

Lewis, Tyson Fury and probably a few more fighters benefited from coming in to fight at above 240 pounds.

Today we acctually have fewer world champions than we did a while back. The IBA was gaining status. The IBO was becoming very credible. Some fighters would bring their WBU, WBF, IBC, IBU etc belts into the ring with them and the fight would be called a world title fight. This silver, diamond, etc game that the big 3 are playing isnt really causing any harm.

[jujigatame]

Deontay Wilder is the only heavyweight fighter competing within the last decade (nine years and ten months to be precise) to have successfully engaged in a world heavyweight title fight weighing less then 225lbs.

And he only ever did it three times.

The following list represents the mathematical average weights of the winners/champions of the world heavyweight title fights (including the WBA variants) that occurred within the last twenty years (rounded to the nearest pound):

• WBA = 247lbs
• WBC = 240lbs
• IBF = 242lbs
• WBO = 242lbs

The weight limit of the cruiserweight division is 200lbs.

Do those statistics not tell you something?

Me: Guys weighing 225+ are well suited to HW.

You: Barely anyone ever wins a HW title under 225!!

And somehow you framed this as a disagreement.

Nope. I didn’t frame it as a disagreement.

And nope again, you didn’t say 225lbs+, you actually wrote 225lbs to 235lbs.

Anyway I’m merely pointing out the fact that 240lbs+ guys are well suited to the heavyweight division.

Those that are lighter typically achieve less success.

The numbers don’t lie.

Yes, like I said, fighters 225-235 are well suited to HW. All fighters within the general ballpark around 240 are. Much bigger or much smaller, and things get tougher.

[jujigatame]

So the logic is that God or nature creates alot of great small men who deserve lots of divisions and championships but then when men grow bigger than 175 pounds then weight stops mattering as much.

This is really nonsense. More weight divisions and champions do not hurt boxing. If the champions and the weight divisions are irrelevant then people simply dont notice them.

I would argue more weight divisions and champions absolutely DO hurt boxing. Any sports fandom needs to know who the top teams/individuals are. If that becomes excessively muddled or unclear, people lose interest. There already being too many classes is not an argument for adding more.

Also, beyond that, it seems like there is a weight level (~240 or so) at which point more weight becomes a hindrance to a fighter's body rather than a help. Which is why we've basically never seen 300+ pound HW champs.

In 2007 the weight catagory light minimum weight was established. Please explain how this has hurt boxing.

In 1987 minimumweight was established and in 1980 cruiserweight was established. Please explain how this has hurt boxing.

The IBA had a superheavyweight champion and have a supercruiserweight division. Please explain how this hurts or has hurt boxing.

Explain how Chagaev and Oquendo are hurtig boxing with their fake championship?

Fact of the matter is that none of this has hurt boxing the least.

Lewis, Tyson Fury and probably a few more fighters benefited from coming in to fight at above 240 pounds.

Today we acctually have fewer world champions than we did a while back. The IBA was gaining status. The IBO was becoming very credible. Some fighters would bring their WBU, WBF, IBC, IBU etc belts into the ring with them and the fight would be called a world title fight. This silver, diamond, etc game that the big 3 are playing isnt really causing any harm.

I disagree. Sanctioning body nonsense is a huge part of why boxing has suffered over the last 20 years.

The UFC provides clarity. Fans know Khabib is the champ at 155, they know Adesanya is the champ at 185. The barrier to entry as a fan is low. It is easy to know who all the champs are. In boxing, it is next to impossible. 15 years ago as a superfan I knew all the "major" beltholders. Now even though I still follow the sport closely I can't even be bothered to keep track of any of it. The lower weight classes are an absurdity where a fighter can traverse 3 or 4 weight classes between weigh-in and fight night, and matchmaking is artificially restricted because fighters in divisions like 118 and 115 are separated despite being exactly the same size.

If you don't think these situations makes it more difficult for the sport to attract new fans, I don't know what to tell you.

Actually, as an additional side note, it's interesting how MMA has shown that the difference between LHW (205 pound division) and HW are so minimal. Guys like Cormier and Bader have jumped between the two divisions, having relatively equal amounts of success in both.

[sykessta]

I get both sides of the argument for and against this proposition and am kind of torn. On one hand adding another weight class will only water down the sport. But, I get where a guy who is between 210-220 wouldn't be able to compete against 250-260 regardless of skill.

Povetkin (224) just KO'd Whyte (252)

Everyone he has fought since Chagaev (bar Huck) has weighed more than him, with one or two around the same weight.

Same with Deontay Wilder

David Haye (210) KO'd Chisora (247)

These are probably the best examples..

Those are exceptions to the rule though. Say what you want about EO but the statistics he provided do not lie. I didn't need to see that stat to know that since around the turn of the millennium the HW division has been dominated by bigger men. Due to A: the decline of the sport's popularity in America paired with Warsaw pact countries opening up allowing them to compete professionally (Eastern Europeans are naturally bigger in stature.) And better nutrition which makes people bigger than they used to be. I think in order to keep with the times the HW limit needs to be moved up to 226+. It'll make the cruiserweight division more relevant as well which is probably the least paid attention to division in the sport north of 122 and even those divisions have cult followings where cruiser does not.

[gilgamesh]

I get both sides of the argument for and against this proposition and am kind of torn. On one hand adding another weight class will only water down the sport. But, I get where a guy who is between 210-220 wouldn't be able to compete against 250-260 regardless of skill.

Povetkin (224) just KO'd Whyte (252)

Everyone he has fought since Chagaev (bar Huck) has weighed more than him, with one or two around the same weight.

Same with Deontay Wilder

David Haye (210) KO'd Chisora (247)

These are probably the best examples..

Those are exceptions to the rule though. Say what you want about EO but the statistics he provided do not lie. I didn't need to see that stat to know that since around the turn of the millennium the HW division has been dominated by bigger men. Due to A: the decline of the sport's popularity in America paired with Warsaw pact countries opening up allowing them to compete professionally (Eastern Europeans are naturally bigger in stature.) And better nutrition which makes people bigger than they used to be. I think in order to keep with the times the HW limit needs to be moved up to 226+. It'll make the cruiserweight division more relevant as well which is probably the least paid attention to division in the sport north of 122 and even those divisions have cult followings where cruiser does not.

Exceptions are what make sports memorable.

If you take away the chance for the exception, you take away the chance for exceptional accomplishments, and you make the sport that much less interesting.