Muhammad Ali (1967) vs. current HWs ?

[geronimo]

Of course Ali would be in thetop 5. For me only Fury and Wilder could be able to beat him.

[evrenb]

Of course Ali would be in thetop 5. For me only Fury and Wilder could be able to beat him.

You mean a lucky punch by Wilder??

[Enlightened-One]

But it's worth remembering that 6'3 Cunningham dropped Fury and 6'3 McDermott arguably beat him. 6'2 Ruiz KO'd Joshua. While 6'2 Sconiers dropped Wilder and 6'0 Romanov KO'd him in the amateurs.

To be honest, it’s stupid to dwell on a fighters worst performances, whereby all the examples you’ve cited (barring Aj's bout against Ruiz Jr.) referred to novices experiencing a bad day at the office.

It’s also important to note that Doug Jones almost knocked down Muhammad Ali, but the likes of Alan Hudson, Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper, Joe Frazier and Chuck Wepner all managed to deck him.

All these guys were much smaller than Fury, Joshua and Wilder. In fact most of them would be modern-day cruiserweights.

The same applies to other heavyweight greats, for instance...

Cleveland Williams (almost stopped Liston), Marty Marshall, Julius Griffin, Leotis Martin and Muhammad Ali all knocked down Sonny Liston.

Therefore, even all-time-greats and Hall-of-Famers have experienced several bad days at the office during their careers.

Can you see the point I’m making here? You're insisting that we should compare the prime version of Ali against the worst iterations of Wilder, Joshua and Fury, which is a silly comparison to make!

Fury himself said Usyk (1.90 cm height , 1.98 cm reach, as same as Ali) is the only one who can beat Wilder, except for himself. He thinks Usyk > Joshua.

Otto Wallin has the same reach (1.98 cm) as Ali and Usyk, and he gave Fury a better fight than Wilder ever did.

Andy Ruiz Jr. has 1.88 cm reach, and he won the WBA belt, by knocking out Joshua.
Joseph Parker has 1.93 cm reach and he won the WBO belt.

Whyte has 1.98 cm reach, and he was the no.1 mandatory challenger for WBC belt until 41 years old Povetkin with 1.91 cm reach KOed him

This height and reach argument is nothing but nonsense.

The debate isn’t about height and reach.

It’s about overall SIZE, which means we’re also considering WEIGHT.

The average height & weight of modern-day heavyweights is in the region of 6′ 4½″ 247lbs.

These averages were gathered during an analysis that was performed towards the end of 2017 using BoxRec’s top-sixty rated heavyweights. I can even provide a detailed list of the heavyweights (coupled with their typical weights and heights) I used to calculate these mathematical averages.

And let’s not forget that Deontay Wilder is pretty much the only fighter within the last decade (i.e. nine years and ten months to be precise) to have successfully competed in world heavyweight title fights weighing less than 220lbs (and he only ever did it three times).

The following list represents the weights of the winners/champions of the world heavyweight title fights (including the WBA variants) that occurred within the last twenty years:

• WBA = 50 title fights; 3 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• WBC = 38 title fights; 4 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• IBF = 40 title fights; 5 winners weighing less than 220lbs
• WBO = 30 title fights; 1 winner weighing less than 220lbs

Here are the mathematical average weights for the winners/champions of all those title fights (rounded to the nearest pound):

• WBA = 247lbs
• WBC = 240lbs
• IBF = 242lbs
• WBO = 242lbs

And finally, don’t you agree that there are exceptions to almost every aspect of life, but they never undermine the general rule (otherwise they wouldn’t be known as exceptions)?

Do you still feel the point I’ve raised is utter "nonsense"? And if so, what is your interpretation of the statistics I’ve supplied?

You’re more than welcome to validate the accuracy of the above stats if you feel they’re either incorrect or somehow misrepresented?

[Counter-puncher]

lol, EO's doing his 'size' thing again and you're all getting into it again

don't y'all ever learn?

[gregregegg]

To be fair, 1967 ali was basicaly a modern cruiser, fighting other modern cruisers. he fought most of his carrer as the bigger man and i realy dont think he would be able to beat all the big boys. tyson furry would do a number on him for sure, but so would many others. Statement that will have me mocked for eternity, i think hughie fury could probably beat him...

interestingly, how would Ali go vs the current cruiserweights....

[Counter-puncher]

[joshj909]

To be honest, it’s stupid to dwell on a fighters worst performances, whereby all the examples you’ve cited (barring Aj's bout against Ruiz Jr.) referred to novices experiencing a bad day at the office.

It’s also important to note that Doug Jones almost knocked down Muhammad Ali, but the likes of Alan Hudson, Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper, Joe Frazier and Chuck Wepner all managed to deck him.

All these guys were much smaller than Fury, Joshua and Wilder. In fact most of them would be modern-day cruiserweights.

The same applies to other heavyweight greats, for instance...

Cleveland Williams (almost stopped Liston), Marty Marshall, Julius Griffin, Leotis Martin and Muhammad Ali all knocked down Sonny Liston.

Therefore, even all-time-greats and Hall-of-Famers have experienced several bad days at the office during their careers.

Can you see the point I’m making here? You're insisting that we should compare the prime version of Ali against the worst iterations of Wilder, Joshua and Fury, which is a silly comparison to make!

My point was not that Ali beats everyone all the time but more that these guys who some consider too big to be beaten by Ali have been dropped or beaten by people of a similar size and significantly less skilled. Their size is not enough to discount Ali's chances.

But you’re still choosing to compare the prime iteration of Ali against the worst iterations of today’s fighters! And that's an unfair comparison to make.

OK, so let’s flip the coin and adopt the polar opposite approach…

Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper were both the equivalent size of a modern-day rehydrated light heavyweight when they decked Ali.

In fact, ‘The Greatest’ was even behind on the scorecards when Cooper was stopped on cuts during their first fight. And let’s not forget that Angelo Dundee resorted to using smelling salts, which were forbidden under BBBofC rules, and also drew attention to a “torn” glove to play for time in between the rounds that Ali hit the deck.

Many feel that Ali was fortunate to be awarded the decision victory over Doug Jones. Another man that was the equivalent size of a modern-day rehydrated light heavyweight. In fact, by Ali’s own admission, Doug Jones came very close to decking him.

The Associated Press scored the fight 5-4-1 for Jones.

Ali was definitely well behind on the judges scorecards when the referee prematurely stopped Ron Lyle (especially if you compare the stoppage to Joe Frazier’s first bout against Foreman).

The 219lbs Ron Lyle was the equivalent size of a modern-day rehydrated cruiserweight.

Many believe that two modern-day cruiserweights, the 209lbs Jimmy Young and the 217½lbs Ken Norton (3rd bout), were both robbed on the judges’ scorecards for their fights against Ali.

What about Ali resorting to cheating during his bout against the 212½lbs Ernie Terrell, another modern-day cruiserweight? When Ali changed the whole flow of the fight by intentionally rubbing Terrell’s eyes along the ropes, as well as sticking a thumb in the left eye.

Like you have done, I’ve cherry-picked some of Ali’s worst or most controversial performances against (modern-day) light heavyweights and cruiserweights.

And it would be too easy or lazy for me to claim that the version of Tyson Fury that stopped Deontay Wilder would beat those versions of Ali, because the comparison wouldn’t be a fair one to make.

But you can’t concede you’re doing precisely the same thing, but in reverse (i.e. prime Ali versus worst versions of Fury, Joshua and Wilder). This approach doesn't make your argument more compelling, because it can also be used to undermine it.

It's your prerogative to perceive history through nostalgic rose-tinted glasses, where your naivety blinds you from questioning accomplishments that have been embellished to the point they've become myths, but the actual objective truths of reality is the fact that Ali would be far less effective today than he was forty-five to sixty years ago, simply because he'd be facing far bigger foes.

Once again, you're completely missing the point. Yes, the modern big heavies can beat Ali especially when you take into account his poor performances in his career but it is not as simple as "they're too big". You cannot exclude the fact that they can also lose to him because of the poor performances in their careers against opponents of a similar size to Ali. I'm not saying Ali beats them every time, I'm saying that the importance of size when considering these particular boxers is not as clear-cut as some people think.

[Enlightened-One]

To be fair, 1967 ali was basicaly a modern cruiser, fighting other modern cruisers. he fought most of his carrer as the bigger man and i realy dont think he would be able to beat all the big boys...

I agree. You’re right about Ali competing for much of his career as a small modern-day cruiserweight.

For the first stage of his career (during his physical prime), prior to being exiled when he was stripped of his licence, his average weight over the course of 29 bouts was only 200½lbs. His opponents typically weighed 198¾lbs.

At least sixteen of those opponents could have competed as light heavyweights if they were around today (based on rehydrated ring weights).

And if we reviewed the second stage of his career, between 1970 and 1974, which was when Ali still had something left in the tank, he only weighed 217¾lbs. During the same timeframe, the average weight of his opponents was only 207¼lbs.

So it’s fairly easy to argue that Ali was essentially a cruiserweight that either faced lots of light heavyweights or much smaller men.

Let’s not forget that Muhamad Ali outweighed 66% of his opponents from the start of his career until 1974’s George Foreman fight.

And even if we expanded the scope of these stats to consider the entirety of his career, he actually outweighed 71% of his opponents.

I’m going to be intentionally hypocritical by asking people to consider how well the 6’ 9” 273lbs version of Tyson Fury (the man that dominated Deontay Wilder) would fare against the 6’ 3” 202½lbs 1963 iteration of Muhammad Ali that many feel was beaten by a 6’0” 188lb-er Doug Jones?

People can live in denial by pretending that size didn’t matter, but they can’t seriously pretend that Ali wasn’t bigger than the majority of his foes.

And even if they don’t trust BoxRec’s stats, the proverbial eyeball test almost certainly proves that this was clearly the case.

[Enlightened-One]

Yes, the modern big heavies can beat Ali especially when you take into account his poor performances in his career but it is not as simple as "they're too big".

I just didn’t like the way you chose to compare the prime versions of Ali against the worst iterations of Fury, Wilder and Joshua.

All fighters, including Ali, have suffered from the occasional bad day at the office. It’s not right to cherry-pick those performances as the main point of your argument, whilst discounting all others.

However, I do agree with you about size not being the 'be-all-and-end-all'. I've never believed this to be the case, but it's a very important factor that should not be ignored.

You cannot exclude the fact that they can also lose to him because of the poor performances in their careers against opponents of a similar size to Ali. I'm not saying Ali beats them every time, I'm saying that the importance of size when considering these particular boxers is not as clear-cut as some people think.

I don’t feel that anyone believes that it would be categorically impossible for Ali to beat many of today’s best big men, but he would almost certainly find it far more challenging to compete against the current crop of 6′ 4½″ 247lbs heavyweights than the men he faced forty-five to sixty years ago.

And if he engaged in a constant series of trilogies against today's top-ten heavyweights, he'd probably suffer defeats against some of the men he'd beat. There's also a few guys he might not able to defeat at all, due to being too small.

And let’s be perfectly honest, nobody knows how well Muhammad Ali would fare against opponents the equivalent size of today’s big men, because he never faced anyone anywhere near their size (the only foe he ever faced that was heavier than 225lbs was Buster Mathis Sr., who appeared to be carrying a spare tyre).

[Counter-puncher]

[oogiebe]

The gift that keeps on giving!

[Counter-puncher]

yeah but 'who's on first base'

[oogiebe]

yeah but 'who's on first base'

LMFAO!

[Tevfik1907]

Someone should tell 'cruiserweight' troll that Usyk was a cruiserweight who is a serious contender for the heavyweight right now, and Fury himself said Usyk can beat Wilder or Joshua, as well as Evander Holyfield was a cruiserweight.

And it's not like cruiserweights doesn't beat heavyweigts; i.e; Tony Bellew vs David Haye

[Enlightened-One]

Someone should tell 'cruiserweight' troll that Usyk was a cruiserweight who is a serious contender for the heavyweight right now, and Fury himself said Usyk can beat Wilder or Joshua, as well as Evander Holyfield was a cruiserweight.

And it's not like cruiserweights doesn't beat heavyweigts; i.e; Tony Bellew vs David Haye

It's interesting you've intentionally refrained from commenting on my stats that proves without of doubt, that it's extremely rare for small men (lighter than 220lbs) to achieve any sort of success during world title fights within the last twenty years.

It's also interesting you've mentioned Oleksandr Usyk, who hasn't achieved anything of note at heavyweight.

If you excluded anomalously big opponents from the equation (i.e. James ‘Buster’ Douglas, George Foreman and Riddick Bowe), Holyfield’s victories in world heavyweight title bouts came against men typically weighing 223lbs, with Evander's own mathematical average weight being 214lbs.

The average height & weight of modern-day heavyweights is in the region of 6′ 4½″ 247lbs.

And finally, mentioning two bouts between two blown-up cruiserweights (i.e. Haye & Bellew; typically weighing 222lbs & 212lbs respectively), doesn't actually strengthen your argument in any way.

[Counter-puncher]

[gilgamesh]

Someone should tell 'cruiserweight' troll that Usyk was a cruiserweight who is a serious contender for the heavyweight right now, and Fury himself said Usyk can beat Wilder or Joshua, as well as Evander Holyfield was a cruiserweight.

And it's not like cruiserweights doesn't beat heavyweigts; i.e; Tony Bellew vs David Haye

It's interesting you've intentionally refrained from commenting on my stats that proves without of doubt, that it's extremely rare for small men (lighter than 220lbs) to achieve any sort of success during world title fights within the last twenty years.

It's also interesting you've mentioned Oleksandr Usyk, who hasn't achieved anything of note at heavyweight.

If you excluded anomalously big opponents from the equation (i.e. James ‘Buster’ Douglas, George Foreman and Riddick Bowe), Holyfield’s victories in world heavyweight title bouts came against men typically weighing 223lbs, with Evander's own mathematical average weight being 214lbs.

The average height & weight of modern-day heavyweights is in the region of 6′ 4½″ 247lbs.

And finally, mentioning two bouts between two blown-up cruiserweights (i.e. Haye & Bellew; typically weighing 222lbs & 212lbs respectively), doesn't actually strengthen your argument in any way.

When people break the mold and achieve something beyond the Stats, it's a special thing.

I also broke down a stat not that long ago that 40% of the lineal Champions in the sport in the last 35 years have been under 225 pounds.

You didn't comment on that because I guess it doesn't back your stupid ass argument that we should ruin boxing.

I also mentioned "Who are the biggest money making draws in the history of the sport"

Guess what. Not a goddamn one of 'em was a big 250 pound plus guy.

[Enlightened-One]

I also broke down a stat not that long ago that 40% of the lineal Champions in the sport in the last 35 years have been under 225 pounds.

You didn't comment on that because I guess it doesn't back your stupid ass argument that we should ruin boxing.

You’re not criticising me for refraining to comment on one your posts I haven’t actually seen, are you?

Provide a link to it and I’ll respond accordingly.

That said, I’ve repeatedly provided the same set of world heavyweight title stats for the last twenty years and I’d appreciate your thoughts about them.

See previous posts in this thread.

[Counter-puncher]

you do it to yourselves, brothers, you do it to yourselves.

ever bang your head really hard against a wall, and wondered why it hurts? that's the equivalent

[gilgamesh]

I also broke down a stat not that long ago that 40% of the lineal Champions in the sport in the last 35 years have been under 225 pounds.

You didn't comment on that because I guess it doesn't back your stupid ass argument that we should ruin boxing.

You’re not criticising me for refraining to comment on one your posts I haven’t actually seen, are you?

Provide a link to it and I’ll respond accordingly.

That said, I’ve repeatedly provided the same set of world heavyweight title stats for the last twenty years and I’d appreciate your thoughts about them.

See previous posts in this thread.

We've had that conversation before already.

Rather than giving you a link I'll just repeat what I said, because it's a simple enough point to make.

LINEAL Heavyweight Champions of the last 35 years.

You got Michael Spinks, Mike Tyson, Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, Riddick Bowe, Holyfield again, Michael Moorer, George Foreman, Shannon Briggs, Lennox Lewis, Wladimir Klitschko, and Tyson Fury.

Count 'em. That's 12 Champions in all. 5 of them were under 225 pounds. If you don't wanna count Holyfield twice, then you can say 4 of them.

That's 33%. (It's 40 or 41% if you count Holyfield both times...which you should)

For something that should have little to no chance of happening as you always seem to indicate the fact that there's in fact a 1 in 3 chance of it happening kinda f*cks up your argument don't it?

[gilgamesh]

Hmm. Nothing to say again I guess.

Either that or he's been writing a book for the last 15 minutes which will dance around the fact that someone just made a counter argument he can't best.

[Counter-puncher]

Hmm. Nothing to say again I guess.

Either that or he's been writing a book for the last 15 minutes which will dance around the fact that someone just made a counter argument he can't best.

one way or another it'll just be another way of asking 'who's on first base', or proclaiming what an excellent driver he is, or that these are not his boxer shorts.

[oogiebe]

Hmm. Nothing to say again I guess.

Either that or he's been writing a book for the last 15 minutes which will dance around the fact that someone just made a counter argument he can't best.

one way or another it'll just be another way of asking 'who's on first base', or proclaiming what an excellent driver he is, or that these are not his boxer shorts.

Am I the only one who suspects that he's never actually watched a fight?

[gilgamesh]

Hmm. Nothing to say again I guess.

Either that or he's been writing a book for the last 15 minutes which will dance around the fact that someone just made a counter argument he can't best.

one way or another it'll just be another way of asking 'who's on first base', or proclaiming what an excellent driver he is, or that these are not his boxer shorts.

Am I the only one who suspects that he's never actually watched a fight?

He kinda behaves like Lisa Simpson on the episode where her and Bart are coaching a Little League team. Bart loves the game, and the excitement therein. Lisa is all about stats, and it never dawns on her that the game is deeper than just stats.

Well...not until the end.

[Enlightened-One]

I also broke down a stat not that long ago that 40% of the lineal Champions in the sport in the last 35 years have been under 225 pounds.

You didn't comment on that because I guess it doesn't back your stupid ass argument that we should ruin boxing.

You’re not criticising me for refraining to comment on one your posts I haven’t actually seen, are you?

Provide a link to it and I’ll respond accordingly.

That said, I’ve repeatedly provided the same set of world heavyweight title stats for the last twenty years and I’d appreciate your thoughts about them.

See previous posts in this thread.

We've had that conversation before already.

Rather than giving you a link I'll just repeat what I said, because it's a simple enough point to make.

LINEAL Heavyweight Champions of the last 35 years.

You got Michael Spinks, Mike Tyson, Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, Riddick Bowe, Holyfield again, Michael Moorer, George Foreman, Shannon Briggs, Lennox Lewis, Wladimir Klitschko, and Tyson Fury.

Count 'em. That's 12 Champions in all. 5 of them were under 225 pounds. If you don't wanna count Holyfield twice, then you can say 4 of them.

That's 33%. (It's 40 or 41% if you count Holyfield both times...which you should)

For something that should have little to no chance of happening as you always seem to indicate the fact that there's in fact a 1 in 3 chance of it happening kinda f*cks up your argument don't it?

If you review the heavyweight title lineage from 5th November 1994, which was when George Foreman defeated Michael Moorer…

The average weight of the victor of the 33 lineal world heavyweight title bouts that have been staged over the last 26 years, is 249½lbs.

And I’m referring to lineal titleholders such as: George Foreman (253lbs), Shannon Briggs (227lbs), Lennox Lewis (247¼lbs), Hasim Rahman (238lbs), Wladimir Klitschko (245lbs) and Tyson Fury (262¾lbs).

From the 33 lineal world title bouts that were staged over the last 26 years, only two men, Shannon Briggs and Hasim Rahman weighted less than 240lbs. And both of these men only won one lineal title fight each.

For the remaining 31 lineal title bouts, all the other guys weighed between 240¼lbs and 283lbs.

As we’ve already established, typical heavyweights get smaller in size the further back in time we review the data, which is because human beings keep getting bigger as time passes by. So I don't really care about what happened 30+ years ago, due to the fact it's irrelevant.