Onetimeonly wrote: ↑27 Oct 2020, 17:15
Marciano, like most fighters, is overrated by some and underrated by others. If you see him top 50 p4p all time...Over. if you see someone saying he would be a light heavy and too small for a tub of goo like areola or kownacki...Under.
Tua and Mercer I'd tab him to outpoint, but he isn't knocking those guys cold. Evander with his short, concise counter and lead hooks would floor tua.
Hell he was at least a Cruiserweight wasn't he?
Didn't he usually weigh between 180 and 190?
He likely could've made Light Heavyweight then if he'd been so inclined, but he wanted the money of fighting the bigger guys. If that's his mentality. He might still do it even in the modern era.
Expressing my outrage about the WBC's new decision, I've seen people say there's no minimal limit, so theoretically a guy could weigh 200 and fight the big boys.
And yet, I don't recall a guy ever being 149 or 150 and fighting a Middleweight.
When Roy Jones weighed 193 for Ruiz, the Cruiserweight division hadn't yet been changed to 200 pounds.
I'm getting off topic here though. Your opinion of whether or not he's over or underrated seems pretty well accurate.
He was a piece of steel. Surely he could juice up over 200 now. Rocky had short dimensions, but you hear the same poo about Louis. Armstrong had several welter title defenses when he weighed below lightweight.
He was a career high 142 challenging Garcia for the middle belt.
Has anything of the sort happened in the last 60 years?
What you cite is a damn good example of why Armstrong is so revered by Boxing historians as one of the all time greatest. I believe he still holds the record for most Title defenses for a Welterweight Champion as well.
He likely could've made Light Heavyweight then if he'd been so inclined, but he wanted the money of fighting the bigger guys. If that's his mentality. He might still do it even in the modern era.
Expressing my outrage about the WBC's new decision, I've seen people say there's no minimal limit, so theoretically a guy could weigh 200 and fight the big boys.
And yet, I don't recall a guy ever being 149 or 150 and fighting a Middleweight.
When Roy Jones weighed 193 for Ruiz, the Cruiserweight division hadn't yet been changed to 200 pounds.
I'm getting off topic here though. Your opinion of whether or not he's over or underrated seems pretty well accurate.
He was a piece of steel. Surely he could juice up over 200 now. Rocky had short dimensions, but you hear the same poo about Louis. Armstrong had several welter title defenses when he weighed below lightweight.
He was a career high 142 challenging Garcia for the middle belt.
Has anything of the sort happened in the last 60 years?
What you cite is a damn good example of why Armstrong is so revered by Boxing historians as one of the all time greatest.
I doubt anything to that degree ever happened in title fights. 60 years? Don't know for sure but I doubt napoles was closer to 160 than 147 when he fought monzon.
All that was weigh out the window when same day weigh ins went away regardless of regulations.
And yet, I don't recall a guy ever being 149 or 150 and fighting a Middleweight.
Didn't Mickey Walker fight Max Schmeling?
Sounds correct. That was the 1920's or 30's though. Different times in so many ways. For instance that was likely just 1 of 20 or so fights Mickey had that year.
Pretty much no way anybody will fight that many times in a year ever again. At least not unless get another Depression...which we very well might.
Walker moved up and fought a lot of light heavyweights and heavyweights. He weighed in the 170s in many fights. He beat several guys who weighed over 200. He was in over his head against Schmeling, but overall had some good success against heavyweights.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑27 Oct 2020, 20:56
Walker moved up and fought a lot of light heavyweights and heavyweights. He weighed in the 170s in many fights. He beat several guys who weighed over 200. He was in over his head against Schmeling, but overall had some good success against heavyweights.
And yet we need a Super Heavyweight division
Not aimed at you, just a comment on the general Boxing scene at the moment.
DrDuke wrote: ↑27 Oct 2020, 13:50
Tua was KOed in the amateurs by Felix Savon hard. Rahman also dropped him right after the final bell in their rematch.
Mercer wasn't KOed until the later stages of his career.
These two had granite chins, but weren't as freakish as McCall or Chuvalo. Clean Marciano's punch could KO both Mercer and Tua. Marciano was a very big puncher.
I'd pick Rocky to handle both Mercer and Tua.
I got a chuckle at him going down in the Rahman rematch because Rahman pointed at him when he went down, but it was just a smidge too late. He would've got the decision had that happened a second earlier.
Was more of a balance thing though than him being hurt. He was aggressively on the front foot attacking, and Rahman hit him with a shot that knocked him off balance. I remember as soon as he hit the mat he stood up immediately.
I think Marciano could KO Tua, if Tua just stood there with his arms down letting him tee off on him maybe. I don't see it otherwise though.
With Mercer it's a little more likely to happen, but I wouldn't pick Marciano by KO in either case. Him winning by Decision though like I say, I can easily imagine.
Well, after Savon countered Tua and sent him down, Tua wasn't out cold, but he was hurt and wobbled. That fight could be stopped even in the pros. I can see Marciano and Tua trading right hands and Tua eating the lethal one.
That was a fight between a grown man and a teenage boy. It is completely irrelevant.
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑27 Oct 2020, 17:15
if you see someone saying he would be a light heavy and too small for a tub of goo like areola or kownacki...Under.
He would be a Lt. Heavy. That isn’t even disputable, actually. Unless he decided to cut to Super Middle, that is.
I got a chuckle at him going down in the Rahman rematch because Rahman pointed at him when he went down, but it was just a smidge too late. He would've got the decision had that happened a second earlier.
Was more of a balance thing though than him being hurt. He was aggressively on the front foot attacking, and Rahman hit him with a shot that knocked him off balance. I remember as soon as he hit the mat he stood up immediately.
I think Marciano could KO Tua, if Tua just stood there with his arms down letting him tee off on him maybe. I don't see it otherwise though.
With Mercer it's a little more likely to happen, but I wouldn't pick Marciano by KO in either case. Him winning by Decision though like I say, I can easily imagine.
Well, after Savon countered Tua and sent him down, Tua wasn't out cold, but he was hurt and wobbled. That fight could be stopped even in the pros. I can see Marciano and Tua trading right hands and Tua eating the lethal one.
That was a fight between a grown man and a teenage boy. It is completely irrelevant.
I think you're underestimating Tua a little. Power puncher with a granite chin. Isn't he like 50 pounds of muscle heavier than Marciano?
I got a chuckle at him going down in the Rahman rematch because Rahman pointed at him when he went down, but it was just a smidge too late. He would've got the decision had that happened a second earlier.
Was more of a balance thing though than him being hurt. He was aggressively on the front foot attacking, and Rahman hit him with a shot that knocked him off balance. I remember as soon as he hit the mat he stood up immediately.
I think Marciano could KO Tua, if Tua just stood there with his arms down letting him tee off on him maybe. I don't see it otherwise though.
With Mercer it's a little more likely to happen, but I wouldn't pick Marciano by KO in either case. Him winning by Decision though like I say, I can easily imagine.
Well, after Savon countered Tua and sent him down, Tua wasn't out cold, but he was hurt and wobbled. That fight could be stopped even in the pros. I can see Marciano and Tua trading right hands and Tua eating the lethal one.
That was a fight between a grown man and a teenage boy. It is completely irrelevant.
Tua started his pro career a year after, but, anyway, how was Tua's chin related to that?
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑27 Oct 2020, 17:15
Marciano, like most fighters, is overrated by some and underrated by others. If you see him top 50 p4p all time...Over. if you see someone saying he would be a light heavy and too small for a tub of goo like areola or kownacki...Under.
Tua and Mercer I'd tab him to outpoint, but he isn't knocking those guys cold. Evander with his short, concise counter and lead hooks would floor tua.
Hell he was at least a Cruiserweight wasn't he?
Didn't he usually weigh between 180 and 190?
He likely could've made Light Heavyweight then if he'd been so inclined, but he wanted the money of fighting the bigger guys. If that's his mentality. He might still do it even in the modern era.
Expressing my outrage about the WBC's new decision, I've seen people say there's no minimal limit, so theoretically a guy could weigh 200 and fight the big boys.
And yet, I don't recall a guy ever being 149 or 150 and fighting a Middleweight.
When Roy Jones weighed 193 for Ruiz, the Cruiserweight division hadn't yet been changed to 200 pounds.
I'm getting off topic here though. Your opinion of whether or not he's over or underrated seems pretty well accurate.
Marciano was around 185 most often. I think, in whatever era he would have been, he would make HW limit. I think, that's just what he wanted.
Yeah he would likely be 200+ today.
Whatever he weighs he's going to have his special qualities thay distinguished him.
I disagree about the Rock being overrated. He was the most with the least. He was a small short armed heavyweight. I do agree and granite the competition during his era was not great however he was able to overcome his liabilities with endurance determination and a strong will to succeed and win. He was a conditioning machine and he had to be because what he lacked in skill and finesse he made up with sheer heart.
A few observations: As I noted near the beginning of this thread, I think Tua and Mercer were fine boxers. A late friend of mine knew Mercer casually and said he was a great person, too. I respect the arguments in opposition, but I stand by my claim. Marciano wins by knockout.
Here's the thing. It wouldn't be easy. Those guys would probably lead most of the way. The problem for them, as with most fighters against Marciano, is his ability to absorb punishment. He could take an enormous beating and not get discouraged.
As for Mickey Walker at heavyweight, Schmeling certainly showed him up. Before that, Walker's draw with Jack Sharkey and wins over Paulino Uzcudun and King Levinsky were great examples of a David over the Goliaths.
bwu wrote: ↑29 Oct 2020, 18:02
A few observations: As I noted near the beginning of this thread, I think Tua and Mercer were fine boxers. A late friend of mine knew Mercer casually and said he was a great person, too. I respect the arguments in opposition, but I stand by my claim. Marciano wins by knockout.
Here's the thing. It wouldn't be easy. Those guys would probably lead most of the way. The problem for them, as with most fighters against Marciano, is his ability to absorb punishment. He could take an enormous beating and not get discouraged.
As for Mickey Walker at heavyweight, Schmeling certainly showed him up. Before that, Walker's draw with Jack Sharkey and wins over Paulino Uzcudun and King Levinsky were great examples of a David over the Goliaths.
No doubt Marciano was a beast. Tough as iron with a vicious right hand. No fighter in history would have an easy time with him. He was 49-0 for a reason.
bwu wrote: ↑29 Oct 2020, 18:02
A few observations: As I noted near the beginning of this thread, I think Tua and Mercer were fine boxers. A late friend of mine knew Mercer casually and said he was a great person, too. I respect the arguments in opposition, but I stand by my claim. Marciano wins by knockout.
Here's the thing. It wouldn't be easy. Those guys would probably lead most of the way. The problem for them, as with most fighters against Marciano, is his ability to absorb punishment. He could take an enormous beating and not get discouraged.
As for Mickey Walker at heavyweight, Schmeling certainly showed him up. Before that, Walker's draw with Jack Sharkey and wins over Paulino Uzcudun and King Levinsky were great examples of a David over the Goliaths.
It's a good point. A lot of fighters would have achieved much less, if they weren't durable and if their chins weren't that good. Ali and Holmes are ones of the most descriptive examples, as well as Marciano. Mercer and Tua actually are examples of it too. They weren't that great, like Ali, Holmes or Marciano, but they were top fighters for quite a while and to a big extent because of their toughness, durability and chin.
bwu wrote: ↑29 Oct 2020, 18:02
A few observations: As I noted near the beginning of this thread, I think Tua and Mercer were fine boxers. A late friend of mine knew Mercer casually and said he was a great person, too. I respect the arguments in opposition, but I stand by my claim. Marciano wins by knockout.
Here's the thing. It wouldn't be easy. Those guys would probably lead most of the way. The problem for them, as with most fighters against Marciano, is his ability to absorb punishment. He could take an enormous beating and not get discouraged.
As for Mickey Walker at heavyweight, Schmeling certainly showed him up. Before that, Walker's draw with Jack Sharkey and wins over Paulino Uzcudun and King Levinsky were great examples of a David over the Goliaths.
It's a good point. A lot of fighters would have achieved much less, if they weren't durable and if their chins weren't that good. Ali and Holmes are ones of the most descriptive examples, as well as Marciano. Mercer and Tua actually are examples of it too. They weren't that great, like Ali, Holmes or Marciano, but they were top fighters for quite a while and to a big extent because of their toughness, durability and chin.
He kinda is and isn't. People overate him due to his legendary image and the 49-0. If ali had retired in 68 hed be like 29-0 with more defences and better opponents.
Hes underated as looking at the facts there's so many things against him but the big thing is people underate his style. He was no mindless slugger
Putting him in the ring with 250lb modern heavys is frankly unfair. The rocky of 1952 couldn't beat lennox lewis or the k's. Just soooo much smaller. However if he lived in their era he may be either a cut s middle or a bulked up 210 lb heavy. The later is a different proposition but we never saw that version so can't rank.
cfang wrote: ↑30 Oct 2020, 18:12
He kinda is and isn't. People overate him due to his legendary image and the 49-0. If ali had retired in 68 hed be like 29-0 with more defences and better opponents.
It's interesting, that if Frazier retired before Foreman, he would have also been with 29-0 and with better opponents.
