Maybe I have too much time on my hands ...

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candyslim
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Maybe I have too much time on my hands ...

Post by candyslim »

These days fighters like to trash-talk. In most cases the talk is exactly that – trash. If talk was any measure of ability then Jarrell Miller would be defending his world title against Christopher Lovejoy. No, it’s not what a fighter says that counts. It’s what he does, and the starting point to establish his credibility is his resume. (Thank you, thank you John, you’re my hero).

The trouble is you pour over a resume for ages and formulate your opinions but they are subjective. How can you quantify your findings or share them with others? You need a metric. I guess you could attribute a value to each fighter, and establish an algorithmic-formula that would increase or decrease those values depending on real world results. That sounds like a massive undertaking and I think the idea might have already been implemented :D

It occurs to me that one indication of credibility (among several) is a willingness to fight someone who is unbeaten. You don’t know how good an unbeaten fighter is because he hasn’t yet found his level so it’s a ballsy move and ambitious too, unless you make your living as an opponent for prospects. There’s not the same value in claiming you’ve fought 20 unbeaten fighters if you lost every encounter. With that in mind I think you should only count wins over a previously unbeaten opponent (PUO). Clearly it is far more impressive to beat someone who is 30 and 0 compared to 3 and 0 so maybe give the fighter one point for every win by each PUO? Too simplistic - we know it’s easy for a half-decent fighter to amass a long unbeaten record if he fights poor opposition, so let’s make it the fighter gets one point for every fighter beaten by his PUOs against opponents who have a winning record (i.e. they have won more fights than they have lost) With me so far?

So I thought it might be interesting to apply this to the five guys who can claim with some justification to be at some point THE MAN in the heavyweight division this millennium:

Boxer …... previously unbeaten opponents …... wins by PUO over winning fighters

Vitali Klitschko – total 85 points:
Alben Belinski 3, Ed Clover 15, Timo Hoffman 7, Chris Arreola 17, Kevin Johnson 14, Odlandier Solis 17, Manuel Charr 12

Wladimir Klitschko – total points 157:
Najee Shaheed 0, Zoran Vujicic 2, Eliseo Castillo 7, Samuel Peter 18, Calvin Brock 10, Sultan Ibragimov 16, Ruslan Chagaev 18, Mariusz Wach 14, Francesco Pianeta 19, Alexandr Povetkin 24,
Kubrat Pulev 17, Bryant Jennings 12

Deontay Wilder – total points 44:
Shannon Gray 0, Jerry Vaughn 0, Shannon Caudle 0, Damon McCreary 7, Kelvin Price 6, Gerald Washington 12, Luis Ortiz 19

Tyson Fury – total points 94:
Rich power 4, Marcelo Nascimento 4, Dereck Chisora 10, Neven Pajkic 13, Tom Schwarz 16, Otto Wallin 14, Deontay Wilder 33


Anthony Joshua – total points 71:
Emmanuel Leo 1, Gary Cornish 7, Dillian Whyte 9, Charles Martin 18, Dominic Breazeale 15, Joseph Parker 21

So in conclusion … Wlad 157, Fury 94, Vitali 85, Joshua 71, Wilder 44 or adjusted to take account of number of fights we have Fury 94/31 = 3.03, Joshua 71/24 = 2.96, Wlad 157/69 = 2.28, Vitali 85/47 = 1.81, Wilder 44/44 = 1.00

I confess I thought Joshua was going to walk this, at least basis average per fight. Fury edges it though mainly thanks to Deontay.
margaret thatcher
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Re: Maybe I have too much time on my hands ...

Post by margaret thatcher »

:salut:
H8Usernames
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Re: Maybe I have too much time on my hands ...

Post by H8Usernames »

Valid contemplations.

In all honesty these fighters today are there own worst enemies, or perhaps they are just plain stupid. Being a fighter if you want the big bucks you have to sell yourself, Muhammed Ali showed up for a charity event to save some hospital sparring 5 fighters for the crowd, he went to Sonny Listons home town to trash talk him to build up interest in the fight and force it to happen. What do fighters now adays do? They call Arum, ODLH or their lawyer which accomplishes nothing.
Onetimeonly
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Re: Maybe I have too much time on my hands ...

Post by Onetimeonly »

H8Usernames wrote: 26 Nov 2020, 23:29 Valid contemplations.

In all honesty these fighters today are there own worst enemies, or perhaps they are just plain stupid. Being a fighter if you want the big bucks you have to sell yourself, Muhammed Ali showed up for a charity event to save some hospital sparring 5 fighters for the crowd, he went to Sonny Listons home town to trash talk him to build up interest in the fight and force it to happen. What do fighters now adays do? They call Arum, ODLH or their lawyer which accomplishes nothing.
The promoters got lazy on casino money and premium cable. Hometown means nothing anymore
Thomastearns
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Re: Maybe I have too much time on my hands ...

Post by Thomastearns »

Obviously there are certain pointers but a perfect algorithm for boxing can no more easily be found than one for living a life.

Good trainers will look for weaknesses, strategies and formulas to use against the opposition.

Many, maybe most boxers suffer psychological damage after a defeat.

Sometimes they suffer physical damage after a defeat. Eg Pacquiao has done fantastically well to come back after that accident against Marquez but something was lost. Subsequently Mayweather got a little braver.

[In fact Pacquiao's ability to come back from defeat could be the best we've ever seen. Better than Ali's even? Maybe as they say, faith can move mountains. Especially when it comes with tons of natural ability].

Against an unbeaten fighter there's also just a lot less to go on. As Johnny Nelson said about Jones Jr, after his defeats there was a blueprint on how to fight him.

As we know weaknesses are notoriously difficult to eradicate in boxing.

Talking of weaknesses, imagine going up against Marvin Hagler and looking for some.

It was only when Leonard's keen eye detected some slowing in Marvin that he decided to risk it. Hardly anyone else at the time agreed with him.

Although I preferred Vitali, it is difficult to not to have respect for Wladimir's better record. It must account for something, whichever way you look at it.
joshj909
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Re: Maybe I have too much time on my hands ...

Post by joshj909 »

I'd agree to an extent. Things such as the eye test, amateur pedigree, trainer etc. also play a factor when assessing the credibility of undefeated boxers in addition to their victories as they do not have the losses for us to know their peak. Chris Norrad that Hughie Fury beat was 17-0 with some victories over guys with winning records and appeared to not know how to throw a punch. Additionally, in this system Klitschko would get full credit for beating Povetkin but David Allen, should he have faced and defeated Christopher Lovejoy, would've received more credit (+1) using this system that AJ would have got for beating Povetkin(+0).

A loss allows us to know a boxers peak and a victory allows us to know his base level assuming there is no room for improvement. Guys that have only lost to the best can still have a very high peak should they have the wins to back up it. So in my view, a few losses against the top couple of guys in the division does not mean a victory over him is worth less value than an undefeated fighter should he have wins against top 10/15 guys.
H8Usernames
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Re: Maybe I have too much time on my hands ...

Post by H8Usernames »

Onetimeonly wrote: 27 Nov 2020, 00:06
H8Usernames wrote: 26 Nov 2020, 23:29 Valid contemplations.

In all honesty these fighters today are there own worst enemies, or perhaps they are just plain stupid. Being a fighter if you want the big bucks you have to sell yourself, Muhammed Ali showed up for a charity event to save some hospital sparring 5 fighters for the crowd, he went to Sonny Listons home town to trash talk him to build up interest in the fight and force it to happen. What do fighters now adays do? They call Arum, ODLH or their lawyer which accomplishes nothing.
The promoters got lazy on casino money and premium cable. Hometown means nothing anymore
I think that the blame lies with the fighters, Ali made Ali, Tyson made Tyson, Roy made Roy. These fighters today most of them are pretty worthless and its their own fault that their careers arent going anywhere and that boxing is suffering.
H8Usernames
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Re: Maybe I have too much time on my hands ...

Post by H8Usernames »

Hell Gatti even made Gatti, not that I approve of that type of unneccessary WWE brain damaging nonsense but regardless of him having 10 losses the fans would line up to see his fights.
candyslim
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Re: Maybe I have too much time on my hands ...

Post by candyslim »

joshj909 wrote: 27 Nov 2020, 05:56 I'd agree to an extent. Things such as the eye test, amateur pedigree, trainer etc. also play a factor when assessing the credibility of undefeated boxers in addition to their victories as they do not have the losses for us to know their peak. Chris Norrad that Hughie Fury beat was 17-0 with some victories over guys with winning records and appeared to not know how to throw a punch. Additionally, in this system Klitschko would get full credit for beating Povetkin but David Allen, should he have faced and defeated Christopher Lovejoy, would've received more credit (+1) using this system that AJ would have got for beating Povetkin(+0).

A loss allows us to know a boxers peak and a victory allows us to know his base level assuming there is no room for improvement. Guys that have only lost to the best can still have a very high peak should they have the wins to back up it. So in my view, a few losses against the top couple of guys in the division does not mean a victory over him is worth less value than an undefeated fighter should he have wins against top 10/15 guys.
Yes Josh I did think about that anomaly except I was thinking how Wlad scored highly for beating Povetkin whereas Joshua did not score at all. There again it wasn't intended to be all-encompassing, and righting that wrong would necessitate looking at other performance besides those against PUOs, it was just a light-hearted look at just one aspect of establishing credibility, in this case as a cherry-popper. :D
joshj909
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Re: Maybe I have too much time on my hands ...

Post by joshj909 »

candyslim wrote: 29 Nov 2020, 12:25
joshj909 wrote: 27 Nov 2020, 05:56 I'd agree to an extent. Things such as the eye test, amateur pedigree, trainer etc. also play a factor when assessing the credibility of undefeated boxers in addition to their victories as they do not have the losses for us to know their peak. Chris Norrad that Hughie Fury beat was 17-0 with some victories over guys with winning records and appeared to not know how to throw a punch. Additionally, in this system Klitschko would get full credit for beating Povetkin but David Allen, should he have faced and defeated Christopher Lovejoy, would've received more credit (+1) using this system that AJ would have got for beating Povetkin(+0).

A loss allows us to know a boxers peak and a victory allows us to know his base level assuming there is no room for improvement. Guys that have only lost to the best can still have a very high peak should they have the wins to back up it. So in my view, a few losses against the top couple of guys in the division does not mean a victory over him is worth less value than an undefeated fighter should he have wins against top 10/15 guys.
Yes Josh I did think about that anomaly except I was thinking how Wlad scored highly for beating Povetkin whereas Joshua did not score at all. There again it wasn't intended to be all-encompassing, and righting that wrong would necessitate looking at other performance besides those against PUOs, it was just a light-hearted look at just one aspect of establishing credibility, in this case as a cherry-popper. :D
I did not intend to criticise, I just had to be the devil's advocate. I think we can all appreciate guys who are willing to face guys who have no conclusive peak. Anyway, good work at having a look an alternative way to critique high level records :salut:
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