Vitaly Klitschko vs Sonny Liston

[margaret thatcher]

liston actually quit more times than vit lol

[Ambling Alp II]

Vitali probably holds the edge in mental toughness, durability, physical strength, and stamina/workrate. There are fights were Vitali threw over 700/800 punches in 12 rounds. One path to beating Liston is simply outworking him.

Mental toughness? If you are mentally tough, you don't quit with three rounds left because of a shoulder injury. Durability? He got stopped both times in the only big fights he ever had. Stamina? He looked gassed after just a few rounds against Lewis.

[Ambling Alp II]

liston actually quit more times than vit lol

That's actually not true.

[margaret thatcher]

maybe bitched out is a better term

2 quitters

[Ambling Alp II]

Perhaps that should be a new stat. We could say someone BO'd.

As for Liston-Ali II, it has been discussed many times in the past. My take is that Liston knew he was not going to win. So he planned to take a dive for extra $. Then Walcott lost control of the match. However, he didn't actually quit in the normal sense of the word.

[DrDuke]

liston actually quit more times than vit lol

That's actually not true.

Lol, what a biased liar you are. Vitali has triggered you to the acts of the outrage yet again.

[Ambling Alp II]

Once again you have shown yourself to be quite the nice person.

Liston actually quit once. He didn't officially quit in the rematch with Ali. He didn't quit in normal boxing terminology. Therefore he didn't quit more than Klitschko. Therefore I didn't lie. I'm biased? (As if you are perfectly objective towards him.) I think he should be credited and criticized by the same standards as anyone else. That's not bias.

[DrDuke]

Once again you have shown yourself to be quite the nice person.

Liston actually quit once. He didn't officially quit in the rematch with Ali. He didn't quit in normal boxing terminology. Therefore he didn't quit more than Klitschko. Therefore I didn't lie. I'm biased? (As if you are perfectly objective towards him.) I think he should be credited and criticized by the same standards as anyone else. That's not bias.

He didn't officially quit. Officially quit, LMAO. Your quote of the year so far.

What else bizarre anecdotes you have to justify your biased fairy tales?

[Ambling Alp II]

Been a boxing fan for more than 40 years. Have never before heard someone refer to it as Liston "quitting in regard to the 2nd fight. (Officially the fight is a first round ko.) There is a difference between quitting and throwing a fight. So no, not a fairy tale.

[Onetimeonly]

He was actually engaging when it was restopped. That and George/moorer crack me up the most with conspiracies. Ali clearly tagged him and George broke Mike's face.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Vitali ate bombs from lewis i dont know why you'd question his chin.

Vitali shouldnt be in the hof in my view he lacks the record but he was clearly a good effective fighter

Would vitali struggle with floyd patterson?

[Onetimeonly]

Vitali ate bombs from lewis i dont know why you'd question his chin.

Vitali shouldnt be in the hof in my view he lacks the record but he was clearly a good effective fighter

Would vitali struggle with floyd patterson?

Liston couldn't have struggled less with Patterson

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

He didnt and neither would vitali. Thats sonys best and defining win

[Onetimeonly]

Agreed, much better than any of vitalis, but Sonny doesn't have a stacked resume.

[p4p1]

On the topic of Mental toughness, I think there is a few things to consider. Yes Vitali quit while ahead with a torn rotator cuff. I don't think that has anything to do with mental toughness, I think he made a calculated decision to not destroy his shoulder and by extension his career over a win, so that he could come back and win another day. I've always looked at it as a decision that most fighters wouldn't have been smart enough to make. I would also say that it speaks to his self confidence that he believed that despite quitting he knew he could get to the top of the mountain again. I've never torn my rotator cuff so I don't know what the pain level is like, I have had a shoulder reconstruction though and it was fornicating horrible.

Now Liston, I have also broken my jaw and how guys manage to fight through it has got me taking my hat off to them. I know they're full of adrenaline etc but the thing you really don't understand until you have broken your jaw is how much every movement can hurt. Any jolt whether it's caused by bouncing, running, punching someone etc send waves of pain through your entire body. Someone who is mentally weak doesn't fight through that. The tapes show that the 'phantom punch' wasn't such a phantom punch, it landed and knocked him off his feet. Ali was standing over him yelling at him, he didn't get up. JJW lost the count, Liston got up before his count of 10 and continued. IMO it was JJW that made the fight look like a farce and a more experienced/better referee would have handled the situation better. I'm also not sure about the legality of Fleischer intervening to tell JJW to stop the fight either. If the fight continued, Liston likely would have been finished off and the conspiracy theories are nowhere near as bad.

[p4p1]

He was actually engaging when it was restopped. That and George/moorer crack me up the most with conspiracies. Ali clearly tagged him and George broke Mike's face.

People think Moorer let Big George put his teeth through his mouthguard to take a dive? As Churchill said I guess, the greatest argument against democracy is a conversation with the average voter.

[p4p1]

Vitali ate bombs from lewis i dont know why you'd question his chin.

Vitali shouldnt be in the hof in my view he lacks the record but he was clearly a good effective fighter

Would vitali struggle with floyd patterson?

In the hardest I've ever been punched thread on the history forum I don't think anyone has named Lewis as the hardest they've been hit. He could definitely hit but he isn't regarded as a puncher in the same vain as Foreman, Liston, Shavers etc. It doesn't mean he couldn't stand up to Liston's punching but it also shows there is no proof that he could. I think he could, but I think he takes a terrible beating if he does and the fight gets stopped.

[p4p1]

Agreed, much better than any of vitalis, but Sonny doesn't have a stacked resume.

What is Vitali's defining win?

[DrDuke]

On the topic of Mental toughness, I think there is a few things to consider. Yes Vitali quit while ahead with a torn rotator cuff. I don't think that has anything to do with mental toughness, I think he made a calculated decision to not destroy his shoulder and by extension his career over a win, so that he could come back and win another day. I've always looked at it as a decision that most fighters wouldn't have been smart enough to make. I would also say that it speaks to his self confidence that he believed that despite quitting he knew he could get to the top of the mountain again. I've never torn my rotator cuff so I don't know what the pain level is like, I have had a shoulder reconstruction though and it was fornicating horrible.

That's right. And that's surely better than quitting because of being beaten up / frustrated and "throwing a fight", or how else "experts" with "more than 40 years of being a boxing fan resume" call it.

[p4p1]

On the topic of Mental toughness, I think there is a few things to consider. Yes Vitali quit while ahead with a torn rotator cuff. I don't think that has anything to do with mental toughness, I think he made a calculated decision to not destroy his shoulder and by extension his career over a win, so that he could come back and win another day. I've always looked at it as a decision that most fighters wouldn't have been smart enough to make. I would also say that it speaks to his self confidence that he believed that despite quitting he knew he could get to the top of the mountain again. I've never torn my rotator cuff so I don't know what the pain level is like, I have had a shoulder reconstruction though and it was fornicating horrible.

That's right. And that's surely better than quitting because of being beaten up / frustrated and "throwing a fight", or how else "experts" with "more than 40 years of being a boxing fan resume" call it.

Doctors at the time said that Liston and torn a tendon in his shoulder. Other sources have confirmed the shoulder injury. One of his cornermen (who seems to be unnamed) said the shoulder injury was bullshit. A big difference is that Klitschko was fighting Chris Byrd, a footnote on the ass of boxing history. Liston was fighting Ali, the greatest fighter in boxing history.

[DrDuke]

On the topic of Mental toughness, I think there is a few things to consider. Yes Vitali quit while ahead with a torn rotator cuff. I don't think that has anything to do with mental toughness, I think he made a calculated decision to not destroy his shoulder and by extension his career over a win, so that he could come back and win another day. I've always looked at it as a decision that most fighters wouldn't have been smart enough to make. I would also say that it speaks to his self confidence that he believed that despite quitting he knew he could get to the top of the mountain again. I've never torn my rotator cuff so I don't know what the pain level is like, I have had a shoulder reconstruction though and it was fornicating horrible.

That's right. And that's surely better than quitting because of being beaten up / frustrated and "throwing a fight", or how else "experts" with "more than 40 years of being a boxing fan resume" call it.

Doctors at the time said that Liston and torn a tendon in his shoulder. Other sources have confirmed the shoulder injury. One of his cornermen (who seems to be unnamed) said the shoulder injury was bullshit. A big difference is that Klitschko was fighting Chris Byrd, a footnote on the ass of boxing history. Liston was fighting Ali, the greatest fighter in boxing history.

That's exactly comes as a proof, that Byrd's fight wasn't that important to risk in it. Vitali chose a career, he abandoned a possiblity of losing it and chose to lose just a single bout.

And prior to the Liston bout Ali was seen as a total jester and an easy victim for Sonny.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Id rank vitalis best wins as

Off memory i might forget someone

Corrie sanders
Sam peter
Arreola
Chisora

Not murderers row and like i said i dont think he should be considered atg because his accomplishments fall short. But head to head he stacks up well with liston

[DrDuke]

Id rank vitalis best wins as

Off memory i might forget someone

Corrie sanders
Sam peter
Arreola
Chisora

Not murderers row and like i said i dont think he should be considered atg because his accomplishments fall short. But head to head he stacks up well with liston

Sounds about right.

I'd also add Adamek and that would be a top 5 of his wins.

Head to head, he definitely wouldn't be an easy work for Liston, although I'd pick Liston over him.

[Seamus]

And who did Liston ever beat ?

[margaret thatcher]

haven't you guys heard, alpy and alpys random friend he watched the fight with had vitali losing to byrd. you cant blame the man for calling it a day when he was hopelessly behind