A fighter should be able to stop without stigma

[snake33]

If a fighter knows he is really hurt it should be OK to take a knee and not lose your reputation.
If the corner isn't doing it's job and isn't concerned for your welfare, do what you have to do and
hire a new corner. Give Dubois a break. Like his orbital.
This does not include a Curtis Harper walkout before the fight starts.
And congratulations to Joyce, I underestimated him a lot.

[Perseus]

Recognize the guy with the distorted face?
The first time he had some adversity in the ring he had broken bones in his face too. He didn't win but he didn't quit either.

Fair or not as long as there are fighters who do fight on through the injury(or at least want to fight on but are not allowed to do so) any fighter that quits will face criticism for it.

When a fighter gets in the ring he could be the guy that hands out a beating and he could also be the guy that receives the beating.
Any fighter that is ok with the former needs to be prepared to accept the latter as well.
If they are ok with handing out a beating but can't take being on the other side of it, they have earned the stigma.

[Jimmy2020]

Professional boxing is light entertainment for the masses. That is all it is. If a fighter is prepared to seriously risk their sight/health/life for that they are dumb. It's not courageous, it's idiocy. Slaves in the Colosseum didn't have a choice.

[Onetimeonly]

Totally agree, dirrell/art or Chavez/Randall being the rare for me.

[Perseus]

For many of them boxing is the only skill they have.
Boxing is their livelihood.
Boxing is their way out of a bad place.
Boxing is their only chance at a better life.
Boxing will be in their future after they are done fighting.

They're not going through hell for us.
They're doing it for themselves.

If they are successful enough they can be financially set for life at a relatively young age.

Only an idiot would risk everything trying to achieve that

[Jimmy2020]

For many of them boxing is the only skill they have.
Boxing is their livelihood.
Boxing is their way out of a bad place.
Boxing is their only chance at a better life.
Boxing will be in their future after they are done fighting.

They're not going through hell for us.
They're doing it for themselves.

If they are successful enough they can be financially set for life at a relatively young age.

Only an idiot would risk everything trying to achieve that

If boxing is the only skill you have you are an idiot. Anybody who has the ability to learn to box professionally also has the ability to learn a skill to earn a living that doesn't involve getting your face smashed in.

Boxing should be an amateur sport for children and young adults to build character. It should not be a career choice.

[Perseus]

For many of them boxing is the only skill they have.
Boxing is their livelihood.
Boxing is their way out of a bad place.
Boxing is their only chance at a better life.
Boxing will be in their future after they are done fighting.

They're not going through hell for us.
They're doing it for themselves.

If they are successful enough they can be financially set for life at a relatively young age.

Only an idiot would risk everything trying to achieve that

If boxing is the only skill you have you are an idiot. Anybody who has the ability to learn to box professionally also has the ability to learn a skill to earn a living that doesn't involve getting your face smashed in.

Boxing should be an amateur sport for children and young adults to build character. It should not be a career choice.

Wow...

[Onetimeonly]

For many of them boxing is the only skill they have.
Boxing is their livelihood.
Boxing is their way out of a bad place.
Boxing is their only chance at a better life.
Boxing will be in their future after they are done fighting.

They're not going through hell for us.
They're doing it for themselves.

If they are successful enough they can be financially set for life at a relatively young age.

Only an idiot would risk everything trying to achieve that

If boxing is the only skill you have you are an idiot. Anybody who has the ability to learn to box professionally also has the ability to learn a skill to earn a living that doesn't involve getting your face smashed in.

Boxing should be an amateur sport for children and young adults to build character. It should not be a career choice.

Wow...

No shit, young children but not grown men.

[gilgamesh]

For many of them boxing is the only skill they have.
Boxing is their livelihood.
Boxing is their way out of a bad place.
Boxing is their only chance at a better life.
Boxing will be in their future after they are done fighting.

They're not going through hell for us.
They're doing it for themselves.

If they are successful enough they can be financially set for life at a relatively young age.

Only an idiot would risk everything trying to achieve that

If boxing is the only skill you have you are an idiot. Anybody who has the ability to learn to box professionally also has the ability to learn a skill to earn a living that doesn't involve getting your face smashed in.

Boxing should be an amateur sport for children and young adults to build character. It should not be a career choice.

I'm sure most Boxers have other skills besides Boxing, but they don't have other skills that can potentially make them millions of dollars.

[snake33]

What I mean is, if you are really hurt, you know it and things aren't going to get better because of that injury, I don't see why you should not throw in your own towel.
If you pull that move and you aren't hurt, ie, taking a dive. Then stigma galore. You're a bum.
But you shouldn't end your career just to be momentarily perceived brave.

If you were a steel worker on a sky scraper, you wouldn't jump from girder to girder to look brave and save time.
You want to work tomorrow. You'll need that next payday.
Same for boxing.

[lazboy]

I have a lot of sympathy for Dubious but he faces legitimate criticism. I wasn't the one taking those jabs, but from my perspective he hadn't, taken a considerable beating. (BTW my perspective is a lazboy couch - I want to change my name to 'couch warrior' for clarity). IMO Joyce was rarely landing anything other than his jab - very few right hands and/or combos were landing. Dubious on the other hand landed big on Joyce. Ultimately Dubious couldn't take what he dished out that night.

If I felt my eye or health was in jeopardy, I would have quit, as health is far more important than pleasing the fans however pleasing the fans is one of the paramount considerations in boxing and boxing is not my career or lifestyle. If you're not prepared to live by that lifestyle, you likely lack the necessary edge and will be found out. That is the harsh reality of the sport.

Dubious may yet fight again and redeem himself but he will actively need to do so (actively redeem himself). He'll need to persevere through the harsh social media criticism also. Of course again I don't blame him quitting for health reasons but my opinion of him as a boxer, not as a man, is lowered.

There's no doubt going to be another test, where he'll face punishment. Most likely this will be against a top 10 rated boxer. If we (the public) want to take him seriously as a contender, he'll need to prove himself, because at the moment his stock has lowered, understandably.

If he's serious, he can turn it around. If he's not, that's his choice and I don't think less of him as a person. If you don't actually need to box or don't love boxing or have that motivation, it's far to serious to play around with. I love boxing and still do boxing workouts minus the sparring as I made a choice many years ago that I don't want to sacrifice the very few brain cells I have left plus I was a shite amateur boxer.

Amen Dubious. You're young and the choice is yours.

[Jimmy2020]

For many of them boxing is the only skill they have.
Boxing is their livelihood.
Boxing is their way out of a bad place.
Boxing is their only chance at a better life.
Boxing will be in their future after they are done fighting.

They're not going through hell for us.
They're doing it for themselves.

If they are successful enough they can be financially set for life at a relatively young age.

Only an idiot would risk everything trying to achieve that

If boxing is the only skill you have you are an idiot. Anybody who has the ability to learn to box professionally also has the ability to learn a skill to earn a living that doesn't involve getting your face smashed in.

Boxing should be an amateur sport for children and young adults to build character. It should not be a career choice.

I'm sure most Boxers have other skills besides Boxing, but they don't have other skills that can potentially make them millions of dollars.

That argument simply doesn't stack up mathematically. You have a far greater (many, many multiples) potential to make millions of dollars (if that's your motivation in life, I don't understand why it would be) if you box as a youngster but skill up in something else for a living and prioritize that than you do by primarily or solely dedicating yourself to boxing. The exceptions prove the rule.

That's not to say someone who becomes a pro boxer is an idiot. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if you feel that you are in such a position that putting up with getting your broken eye socket further damaged, while the baying public watch on, is your only shot in life, you're an idiot. Likewise, if the opinion of others is more important to you than your own wellbeing you are an idiot.

[Fray Bentos]

Very few fighters are able to retire off their ring earnings, there was a report about Charlie Magri who is now a caretaker. Not just him, many more aren't able to retire and live a life of leisure, it would be most boxers. What ring earnings they make isn't enough to risk their health.

How many things have we quit in our lives? Relationships, jobs, situations that were a hard road but we would have become better for it - and how many things did we carry on (and regret it in hindsight) with where we should have quit sooner?

Dubois eye was shut and his other eye was on the way to being shut - he probably couldn't see all that much out of his remaning eye - I have to say my interest in boxing is more or less gone. I don't think any injury is worth any boxing title - moreso a WBO bauble.

[Jimmy2020]

I have to say my interest in boxing is more or less gone. I don't think any injury is worth any boxing title - moreso a WBO bauble.

Me too. I still think amateur boxing/martial arts are good hobbies for personal development but increasingly I am leaning towards supporting a ban on professional boxing and professional MMA. People shouldn't be fighting for pay in 2020 for the entertainment of others and gambling reasons.

[gilgamesh]

If boxing is the only skill you have you are an idiot. Anybody who has the ability to learn to box professionally also has the ability to learn a skill to earn a living that doesn't involve getting your face smashed in.

Boxing should be an amateur sport for children and young adults to build character. It should not be a career choice.

I'm sure most Boxers have other skills besides Boxing, but they don't have other skills that can potentially make them millions of dollars.

That argument simply doesn't stack up mathematically. You have a far greater (many, many multiples) potential to make millions of dollars (if that's your motivation in life, I don't understand why it would be) if you box as a youngster but skill up in something else for a living and prioritize that than you do by primarily or solely dedicating yourself to boxing. The exceptions prove the rule.

That's not to say someone who becomes a pro boxer is an idiot. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if you feel that you are in such a position that putting up with getting your broken eye socket further damaged, while the baying public watch on, is your only shot in life, you're an idiot. Likewise, if the opinion of others is more important to you than your own wellbeing you are an idiot.

You talk as if it's just easy to do something for a living that's gonna make you a Millionaire. If that were the case we'd all be rich.

[Enlightened-One]

People are entitled to their own opinions.

And people are entitled to free speech and to also cause offence.

And people are allowed to be offended.

It’s not uncommon for fighters to quit, but most of them disguise it (i.e. by looking for their cornermen to stop the fight or by intentionally failing to beat the count or by being risk-averse, which means they’d rather lose on points instead of attempting to adapt by employing a more dangerous gameplan).

If a fighter quits, then they’re liable to receive criticism. They already know this.

Fighters will be paid, regardless as to whether they quit or not.

Boxers are known as “PRIZE fighters” rather than “PRIDE fighters”.

However, fight fans are their source of income and the people that help fighters pay their bills are entitled to complain if they don’t feel they are getting their money’s worth.

The primary objective of a fight fan is to be entertained.

The primary objective of a fighter is to maximise their earning potential.

And sometimes both goals are mutually exclusive in nature, especially when a fighter values their own physical wellbeing over entertaining fans.

Therefore, it’s impossible to demand that fighters should be automatically deemed immune from criticism whenever they choose to quit fights!

[Jimmy2020]

I'm sure most Boxers have other skills besides Boxing, but they don't have other skills that can potentially make them millions of dollars.

That argument simply doesn't stack up mathematically. You have a far greater (many, many multiples) potential to make millions of dollars (if that's your motivation in life, I don't understand why it would be) if you box as a youngster but skill up in something else for a living and prioritize that than you do by primarily or solely dedicating yourself to boxing. The exceptions prove the rule.

That's not to say someone who becomes a pro boxer is an idiot. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if you feel that you are in such a position that putting up with getting your broken eye socket further damaged, while the baying public watch on, is your only shot in life, you're an idiot. Likewise, if the opinion of others is more important to you than your own wellbeing you are an idiot.

You talk as if it's just easy to do something for a living that's gonna make you a Millionaire. If that were the case we'd all be rich.

No I don't. What I'm saying is it's far easier to become a millionaire doing something that isn't boxing.

I personally know lots of millionaires who have boxed but only one (Ricky Hatton) who made his money boxing.

[Tony1244]

I agree totally with the OP. Harper walked out. Bert Cooper's cocaine buzz didn't psyche him against Foreman. Those are cases where purses should be upheld.

Vit quitting against Byrd was borderline. A shoulder isn't an eye. Dubois did quit but it was very justified. It's nice to have sight in two eyes.

I don't believe in golden rules like "never quit." Sometimes quitting something is smart.

[Enlightened-One]

I agree totally with the OP. Harper walked out. Bert Cooper's cocaine buzz didn't psyche him against Foreman. Those are cases where purses should be upheld.

Vit quitting against Byrd was borderline. A shoulder isn't an eye. Dubois did quit but it was very justified. It's nice to have sight in two eyes.

I don't believe in golden rules like "never quit." Sometimes quitting something is smart.

Ultimately, you’re saying that complaints about fighters quitting is very subjective in nature.

There are situations, such as Curtis Harper’s walking out on the Ajagba fight, that you personally find objectionable.

However, whilst I don’t necessarily agree with his actions, his reasoning for doing so seem rather sound to me. He felt he was being mistreated, had contractual issues and was also underpaid by his promoter.

Fight fans will wrongly assume that Harper quit due to “fear”, but this was clearly not the case.

And so we’ll agree to disagree on the matter.

You may choose to complain about something that I’ll refrain from criticising, because I am capable of showing empathy for the fighters’ plight.

And similarly, there are bound to be situations whereby I’ll complain about something that you have no issue with, hence the subjective nature of this topic.

So whilst I do agree with you, sometimes quitting may be the smart thing to do. The consequences are rather obvious, because fight fans will complain… and they’re entitled to do so.

All fighters understand the consequences of their actions.

[DrDuke]

I agree totally with the OP. Harper walked out. Bert Cooper's cocaine buzz didn't psyche him against Foreman. Those are cases where purses should be upheld.

Vit quitting against Byrd was borderline. A shoulder isn't an eye. Dubois did quit but it was very justified. It's nice to have sight in two eyes.

I don't believe in golden rules like "never quit." Sometimes quitting something is smart.

That's right. When you feel, that you are injured enough, you shouldn't push yourself forward. Although I can understand, when some fighters critisize other ones for quitting, that's bravada, verbal wars and etc, which is also a part of the game. But when some fans, who has never stepped in the ring and/or had their butts kicked for real, accuse everybody in quitting, they just don't know a sh!t about boxing.

[Tony1244]

I agree totally with the OP. Harper walked out. Bert Cooper's cocaine buzz didn't psyche him against Foreman. Those are cases where purses should be upheld.

Vit quitting against Byrd was borderline. A shoulder isn't an eye. Dubois did quit but it was very justified. It's nice to have sight in two eyes.

I don't believe in golden rules like "never quit." Sometimes quitting something is smart.

Ultimately, you’re saying that complaints about fighters quitting is very subjective in nature.

There are situations, such as Curtis Harper’s walking out on the Ajagba fight, that you personally find objectionable.

However, whilst I don’t necessarily agree with his actions, his reasoning for doing so seem rather sound to me. He felt he was being mistreated, had contractual issues and was also underpaid by his promoter.

Fight fans will wrongly assume that Harper quit due to “fear”, but this was clearly not the case.

And so we’ll agree to disagree on the matter.

You may choose to complain about something that I’ll refrain from criticising, because I am capable of showing empathy for the fighters’ plight.

And similarly, there are bound to be situations whereby I’ll complain about something that you have no issue with, hence the subjective nature of this topic.

So whilst I do agree with you, sometimes quitting may be the smart thing to do. The consequences are rather obvious, because fight fans will complain… and they’re entitled to do so.

All fighters understand the consequences of their actions.

I certainly don't know the details of the Harper case. His action certainly hurt his consequences. As a smart president once said, "Life isn't fair." Unfortunately, for Harper, he isn't Pretty Boy Floyd or Mike Tyson. Not many, if any, are jonzing for him to fight. So, in the long run it would probably have been better for him to be underpaid.

[gilgamesh]

That argument simply doesn't stack up mathematically. You have a far greater (many, many multiples) potential to make millions of dollars (if that's your motivation in life, I don't understand why it would be) if you box as a youngster but skill up in something else for a living and prioritize that than you do by primarily or solely dedicating yourself to boxing. The exceptions prove the rule.

That's not to say someone who becomes a pro boxer is an idiot. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if you feel that you are in such a position that putting up with getting your broken eye socket further damaged, while the baying public watch on, is your only shot in life, you're an idiot. Likewise, if the opinion of others is more important to you than your own wellbeing you are an idiot.

You talk as if it's just easy to do something for a living that's gonna make you a Millionaire. If that were the case we'd all be rich.

No I don't. What I'm saying is it's far easier to become a millionaire doing something that isn't boxing.

I personally know lots of millionaires who have boxed but only one (Ricky Hatton) who made his money boxing.

It's not easy to become a Millionaire at all. The guys that do it via Boxing couldn't have done it any other way.

[Jimmy2020]

It's not overly difficult here in the UK. Maybe it's more difficult in the USA even though you have to earn less there (because of exchange rates) than here. Here about 1 in 9 households hold over one million in assets. If we were linked to the US dollar it would be about 1 in 8.

[Tony1244]

That argument simply doesn't stack up mathematically. You have a far greater (many, many multiples) potential to make millions of dollars (if that's your motivation in life, I don't understand why it would be) if you box as a youngster but skill up in something else for a living and prioritize that than you do by primarily or solely dedicating yourself to boxing. The exceptions prove the rule.

That's not to say someone who becomes a pro boxer is an idiot. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if you feel that you are in such a position that putting up with getting your broken eye socket further damaged, while the baying public watch on, is your only shot in life, you're an idiot. Likewise, if the opinion of others is more important to you than your own wellbeing you are an idiot.

You talk as if it's just easy to do something for a living that's gonna make you a Millionaire. If that were the case we'd all be rich.

No I don't. What I'm saying is it's far easier to become a millionaire doing something that isn't boxing.

I personally know lots of millionaires who have boxed but only one (Ricky Hatton) who made his money boxing.

Millionaire boxers? Mickey Rourke had a couple fights. USA channel boxing once had some CEO big shot on the undercard who won a decision against someone who was 2-4 or something. Forget his name. Gyms in NYC/LA etc have white collar boxing lessons.

[Syntax Error]

I think it is legitimate to criticise a fighter for quitting at the time of the event, when we are not privvy to the actual reason.

If it subsequently turns out that a quitting fighter had a legitimate reason, then the criticism should rightly cease.

In hindsight, Daniel Dubois was perfectly justified in quitting, whereas, someone like Roberto Duran versus Leonard 2 should rightly be criticised because there was nothing wrong with him, he just threw his dummy out of the cot because Leonard wouldn't dance to his tune the second time around.