Vitaly Klitschko vs Sonny Liston

[Ambling Alp II]

I had Byrd up by one point. It was certainly a close fight. Very little happened. If you want to say that Klitschko was up by a point, fine. However to think that he was dominating the fight is ridiculous. If he actually thought himself that he was way ahead then quitting in that situation is even worse.
Klitschko had three rounds to go. Just three rounds. He didn''t have to even throw a punch with that shoulder. Basically just had to stand there. All he had to do was stand up and he would have gone the distance. Can't imagine Liston (or about 90% of fighters for that matter ) quitting in that situation.

Liston deserves criticism (and certainly has got it) for quitting against Ali in the first fight. but at least in that fight, he was getting beat up and had 9 rounds to go. That isn't nearly as bad as just having to stand there for three rounds against a guy who couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag.

[Ambling Alp II]

And who did Liston ever beat ?

Floyd Patterson 2x. Zora Folley. Eddie Machen. All better than anyone Klitschko ever beat. Not even arguable.

With Klitschko, it's constantly "he would have beat this guy". "He would have beat that guy". However, he never actually did it.

[DrDuke]

Klitschko had three rounds to go. Just three rounds. He didn''t have to even throw a punch with that shoulder. Basically just had to stand there. All he had to do was stand up and he would have gone the distance. Can't imagine Liston (or about 90% of fighters for that matter ) quitting in that situation.

That's only your problem, my delirious friend. Sonny did worse and even twice.

[DrDuke]

Zora Folley. Eddie Machen. All better than anyone Klitschko ever beat. Not even arguable.

Oh, that's the murderer's row. Surely, they've been knocking out different Wlad Klitschkos more often than some Corrie Sanders.

[Onetimeonly]

Agreed, much better than any of vitalis, but Sonny doesn't have a stacked resume.

What is Vitali's defining win?

He doesn't have any.

[DrDuke]

Agreed, much better than any of vitalis, but Sonny doesn't have a stacked resume.

What is Vitali's defining win?

He doesn't have any.

He obviously had some, although not many.

[Onetimeonly]

[Cojimar 1946]

And who did Liston ever beat ?

Floyd Patterson 2x. Zora Folley. Eddie Machen. All better than anyone Klitschko ever beat. Not even arguable.

With Klitschko, it's constantly "he would have beat this guy". "He would have beat that guy". However, he never actually did it.

It's absolutely arguable. Klitschko doesn't have a great resume but H2H you could easily argue they are better or comparable to the guys Liston beat.

Patterson has a better legacy than anyone Klitschko beat but given his lack of size and durability it's reasonable to be skeptical about whether he would be effective in Klitschko's era at heavyweight. I think it is far more likely he would be fighting at light heavyweight.

[Cojimar 1946]

If Klitschko's opposition is as awful as some people around here like to claim not to mention Klitschko himself than I don't understand why more talented fighters from lower divisions didn't move up to heavyweight and take it over.

Why didn't someone like say Andre Ward move up and become undisputed heavyweight champion.

[p4p1]

If Klitschko's opposition is as awful as some people around here like to claim not to mention Klitschko himself than I don't understand why more talented fighters from lower divisions didn't move up to heavyweight and take it over.

Why didn't someone like say Andre Ward move up and become undisputed heavyweight champion.

Previously Heavyweights weighed around 200lbs up until Bowe, Lewis and the Klitschkos. The 250lb 6'5-6'7 guys that are decent and athletic are too big for guys at LHW and below, sometimes they're too big for top Cruiserweights. Jones kicked Ruiz's ass but does anything think he was big enough and strong enough to compete with Lewis or the Klitchsko's? Of course not. The guys from LHW etc can probably compete and beat a lot of the HWs a fat old James Toney for one did. In proper shape a lot of the top HWs would still weight around 220lbs. Most of those guys has a similar sized frame to Toney and like Toney were just fat. Wilders relatively low weight of 220lbs doesn't stop him from being able to fight guys as big as Fury (though lack of skill would get him knocked out quickly against the Klitschko's or Lewis) because his frame means that while he is giving away weight he isn't necessarily giving away size and strength. Liston was around 210-220 but his frame would mean he isn't giving up meaningful size or strength.
Lewis was knocked out by a 6'2, 82" reach Rahman. Rahman isn't really any bigger than Liston. McCall is the same height and length and weight as Rahman He had two close fights with Holyfield who is smaller but not as strong as Liston.
Wlad got knocked out by 6'4, 77" reach, 225lbs Sanders. 6'3, 80" reach Puritty who wouldn't have had a hard time getting well below the 250lb he weighed for the fight. 6'2 77" Reach Brewster knocked him out. Size matters and I would argue that a fighters natural frame rather than their weight or height is what dictates the weights they could be effective in. Tyson's 5'10 though I've read many people say he closer to 5'8, but he's built like a truck his head looks like its the size of a basketbal. His natural frame allows him to be strong enough to compete at HW, an averagely built fighter who at 5'9 or 5'10 hit weights (so lets say a MW) etc to get themselves up to 220lbs would get rag dolled at the weight.

Valuev was successful because of his size not because he was good. There's no way he beats a Klitschko, Lewis, AJ or even Wilder but he beat Ruiz despite Ruiz being more skilled than Wilder and AJ. Jones was able to beat Ruiz because he didn't give away a heap of height, reach or weight and he did it far more convincingly that Valuev. I doubt anyone would pick Jones to beat Valuev. Despite Jones' china chin I would give him more chance of beating Haye who beat Valuev than I would of Jones beating Valuev.

[DrDuke]

Valuev was successful because of his size not because he was good. There's no way he beats a Klitschko, Lewis, AJ or even Wilder but he beat Ruiz despite Ruiz being more skilled than Wilder and AJ. Jones was able to beat Ruiz because he didn't give away a heap of height, reach or weight and he did it far more convincingly that Valuev. I doubt anyone would pick Jones to beat Valuev. Despite Jones' china chin I would give him more chance of beating Haye who beat Valuev than I would of Jones beating Valuev.

Valuev sucked and he was often winning because he was a cash cow for the German freakshows.

Valuev-Ruiz bouts could have been easily scored for Ruiz, especially the first one. Valuev also clearly lost to Larry Donald. Shot Holyfield deserved a win over Valuev too.

Roy Jones would toy Valuev in a similar way to Haye.

And no way John Ruiz was more skillfull than Joshua. Ruiz could only jab, grab and hold. Maybe more skillful than Wilder, who is a walking right hand, but not that AJ.