Willie Pep-Jackie Graves fairy tale

Jake Wegner · Post by **Jake Wegner** » 04 Jul 2006, 22:22

Ever since I debunked the old fairy tale that Willie Pep won the 3rd round of his fight with Jackie Graves without throwing a punch, I have gotten angry mail from Pep fans. But the facts are facts for whoever out there is still hearing this tale and wondering about its truth. There is no truth to it. For more on this you can go to my interview with Jackie Graves who was almost out of it by this time, but I scanned the St. Paul newspaper's round-by-round analysis and not only is there no mention of a punchless Pep in the 3rd, but it says that the 3rd was the most action packed of the night, and specifically talks about punches Pep hit Graves with. The funny thing is, is that supposedly thisn whole tale sprung forth from Don Riley, a sportswriter for the Pioneer Press at that time, saying that Pep told him before the fight he would do this. Well, first of all, why then, doesn;t Riley himself or any of his staff mention this feat in their write-ups? How come none of the 20+ people that I interviewed who were there, remember this happening? And how come no one including Pep himself ever spoke of this tale until the 1970's, decades later? Is anyone else still hearing this rediculous tale told as truth? For more evidence go to http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w0403-jw.html

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 04 Jul 2006, 22:48

Thanks for that. I always thought that story of Pep winning a round without throwing a punch was ridiculous.

-KOKid- · Post by **-KOKid-** » 05 Jul 2006, 03:14

Author Brian Hughes makes a point out of describing the punchless winning round by Pep actually happened in his 1997 bio of Pep.
Although certainly biased towards Pep throughout the entire book, it would surprise me if it never happened. My impression is that the amount of research put in by Hughes was solid.
Tell you what, I will post some of the things mentioned in the chapter that deals with this fight and we can debate over it later.

-KOKid-

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 05 Jul 2006, 08:36

I had always assumed that it was false if you took it literally. But I also assumed it had some "metaphorical" meaning.....such as a round where he demsonstrated such great ring generalship combined perhaps with few offensive punches and defensive moves that made the opponent look clumsy or silly. Perhaps the closest thing one could imagine to such a description that the writer took some poetic license with the truth.

But it seems as you search your not even finding the basis for this claim which is interesting to me. Pep was pretty prolific with letting his fists fly so maybe it's turning out to be a complete and total fabrication.

Myth busting can be so deflating.

Jake Wegner · Post by **Jake Wegner** » 05 Jul 2006, 10:24

I can guarantee that Hughes didn't come close to doing as much research on the subject as I did. For instance, I'd like to see one name of a person that he interviewed that was THERE. I can list almost 20 (some have since died) including the former trainer of Hall of Famer Del Flanagan, Bill Kaehn and many, many, others. I also interviewed men who sat ringside and worked for the St. Paul Pioneer Press and the Minneapolis Star Tribune, which were the only newspapers in the Twin Cities and still are. These guys were paid to sit ringside and due their write-ups. The fight took place in Minneapolis, so that carries quite a lot of weight don't you think? Not only that, how come Pep himself didn't talk at all about what he supposedly did to the reporters after the fight. I have the whole interview and there is nothing. I can also guarantee that Hughes did not fly to St. Paul and do the research that I did by checking the microfilm of the newspapers that covered the fight, because his name doesn't exist in the log book for the files. Nobody ever heard this fable until decades later. It is a false fable. The International Boxing Research Organization, which is the most respected group of boxing historians in the world, bar none, has read my findings and most now accept this story as pure B.S. Some people just don't want to believe it's not true, so instead they repeat the story, making history become heresy. There is too much of that already in boxing, and its nice to close the book on this one.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 05 Jul 2006, 10:36

BoxBuzz wrote:I had always assumed that it was false if you took it literally. But I also assumed it had some "metaphorical" meaning.....such as a round where he demsonstrated such great ring generalship combined perhaps with few offensive punches and defensive moves that made the opponent look clumsy or silly. Perhaps the closest thing one could imagine to such a description that the writer took some poetic license with the truth.

But it seems as you search your not even finding the basis for this claim which is interesting to me. Pep was pretty prolific with letting his fists fly so maybe it's turning out to be a complete and total fabrication.

Myth busting can be so deflating.

That's pretty how much how I always though of it, Buzz... The idea that Pep had taken the art of not being hit to a level by which he could ghost around the ring making the other guy lumber around in vain attemtps at trying to swat him.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 05 Jul 2006, 12:43

Another thing about Pep that you need to ask..and maybe some of you know....is did he have the type of sense of humor to want to attempt such a thing? I always had the impression that he was very very good but pretty serious about his craft and if he see's an opening he's going to seize the moment. Added to that his style seemed pretty busy on the offense with countering. Did he like to humiliate his opponent or did it simply happen because he was so good?

Those who idolize him might imagine that he COULD have done such a thing....I think it's possible given the right set of judges,opponenent and cirumstance. However the question is DID HE? And it does appear that in fact it never really happened.

Matt · Post by **Matt** » 05 Jul 2006, 13:49

While the book is closed from a research standpoint, I guarantee that Pep's death, will bring this old myth to the surface again. I would be surprised if the media doesn't mention it ad nauseum. It's such a great talltale, that most lazy reporters, will surely bring it up in an obituary or retrospective.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 06 Jul 2006, 04:12

The point is that so many people are/were willing to believe the story just because of what a great boxer Willie was. This is an achievement in its own right.

It's a great bit of research by Jake. Even though it's not true the myth is still enjoyable and does tell us something of the way in which Pep was acclaimed by his contemporaries.

barry · Post by **barry** » 06 Jul 2006, 08:29

As I have said before, if the claim had been made against a "tomato-can bum" of a fighter it might be more believable, but against Jackie Graves, sorry just don't ever see it happening no matter how good Pep was.

Another myth on Pep, which is not as mentioned as the "No-Punch winning round" nonsense is that Pep was accused of throwing the bout in which Tommy Collins beat him...though from the research I have done on this fight I find that claim to be as fictitious as the no-punch round. Collins, who was a vicious puncher, just caught Pep with a very good shot that put Pep in “La-La Land” and then proceeded to beat Pep fair and square.

Anyway, Jake did a wonderful job of correcting the inaccurate tale about the Pep no-punch round.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 06 Jul 2006, 12:12

barry I agree with you, if they would have chosen another opponent as the victim the myth may have been perpetuated at least for a greater period of time. But this seemed so absurd to so many that it got the attention of the detectives on the beat.

barry · Post by **barry** » 08 Jul 2006, 03:47

Jake Wegner visited with, interviewed and wrote a really nice article on Jackie Graves before he died!

Jake Wegner · Post by **Jake Wegner** » 08 Jul 2006, 22:09

Hey guys...I'd simply like to say "thank you" for the really nice compliments on my research. It finally has been getting some interest from Ring and Boxing Digest and I wouldn't be surprised if one of the two magzines printed my research up in an upcoming issue before year's end. Again, Matt...Barry..the rest of you...thank you for the kind compliments...but I, like yuorselves, will settle for nothing less than the truth...no matter what that is.........and in this case, Jackie Graves was the patsy for far too long of a rediculous "Pacos Bill" type of story, and quite frankly I am suprised that men like Bert Sugar would ever even go on camera and risk their moxy to perpetuate this kind of fantasy. Why no one had ever done the in-depth level of research this deserved is beyond me....perhaps it was just too fun to repeat the myth. And that's sad.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 09 Jul 2006, 21:48

And as Decagon and the rest of us well know....it most certainly is elliptical.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 09 Jul 2006, 23:10

Tommy Collins beat him...though from the research I have done on this fight I find that claim to be as fictitious as the no-punch round. Collins, who was a vicious puncher, just caught Pep with a very good shot that put Pep in “La-La Land” and then proceeded to beat Pep fair and square.

very interesting barry. do u happen to know if pep threw the lulu perez fight?

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 10 Jul 2006, 13:57

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Tommy Collins beat him...though from the research I have done on this fight I find that claim to be as fictitious as the no-punch round. Collins, who was a vicious puncher, just caught Pep with a very good shot that put Pep in “La-La Land” and then proceeded to beat Pep fair and square.

very interesting barry. do u happen to know if pep threw the lulu perez fight?

Didn't look like it to me. Perez caught him with a flush right hand, sent him down, then caught him with a couple more after that, right on the chin. Pep was genuinely stunned and caught off guard.