Is Anthony Joshua among the top ten HWs since 2000 ?

[Finkel]

My point is, I don't know how Dr. Duke could have Wilder at 8 and Valuev only in the top 40.

Cause Wilder proved quite well, that he can be dangerous to anybody, as he did provide danger for every opponent he faced, including Fury. And Valuev lost to Larry Donald, shot Holyfield, John Ruiz X2 in addition to his official losses.

Valuev was utter crap, not a boxer at all, overblown fraud and just a circus tallman.

But one-eyed, but okay.

So, Wilder proved quite well against who exactly? Think you are stretching it with the words "anybody."

As for every opponent he faced, did he really?

Most of his defences were against B or C-tier opponents that Haymon payed for a top 15 ranking for. That leaves us with:

Stiverne 1 - pretty sure John Ruiz handles him.
Luis Ortiz 1 - a man who hasn't achieved anything, was closer to 50 than 40, and Wilder still needed the help off the referee to survive against.
Luis Ortiz 2 - even older
Or do you mean the drug addled shell of Tyson Fury?

Beating up a bunch of also-rans and blown up cruiser-weights doesn't mean it's a foregone conclusion that he beats a 7' giant, two-time champion.

In your eyes one is an overblown fraud and a top 40 fighter and the other...is at 8? Right, okay...

[DrDuke]

But one-eyed, but okay.

So, Wilder proved quite well against who exactly? Think you are stretching it with the words "anybody."

As for every opponent he faced, did he really?

Most of his defences were against B or C-tier opponents that Haymon payed for a top 15 ranking for. That leaves us with:

Stiverne 1 - pretty sure John Ruiz handles him.
Luis Ortiz 1 - a man who hasn't achieved anything, was closer to 50 than 40, and Wilder still needed the help off the referee to survive against.
Luis Ortiz 2 - even older
Or do you mean the drug addled shell of Tyson Fury?

So, now it already was a shell of Fury.

Yeah, his opposition wasn't really good, but at least he knocked them all out, except some "addled shell" though, but doesn't matter really, cause he at least wasn't losing to Larry Donalds and was KOing Liakhoviches in the 1st round instead of going full-distance with them.

He showed some world class power, that can be dangerous for any. He had at least that.

Beating up a bunch of also-rans and blown up cruiser-weights doesn't mean it's a foregone conclusion that he beats a 7' giant, two-time champion.

In your eyes one is an overblown fraud and a top 40 fighter and the other...is at 8? Right, okay...

Oh, so, now some belt-holding matters.

His two-time championship was even a bigger disgrace than Wilder's run.

Go watch Valuev fighting, instead of counting an amount of World championships, feel all the pain in the process of observing the spectacle and masterful display of the great Niko.

[Finkel]

I have watched some of Valuev's fights actually. He made improvements in the final few years. Personally I didn't have a problem with Ruiz getting a draw, but he didn't beat Valuev.
Hollyfield, yeah, sure.
But yeah Valuev was lumbering, but had a pretty good jab. And his size was always a problem.

Now the trouble is I've seen too much of Wilder to think there is a gulf in class between the two. Be it either highlights or full fights from next to every fight in Wilder's career. Including his 25th fight where he was fighting a fat former super middle weight prospect. Nothing has convinced me that he can stop Valuev let alone drop him, and his lack of boxing skills would result in a hard night's work, whether he got the victory or not.

For me it's not really an issue of putting Wilder top 10, his string of defence against cherry picked opposition earns him a spot, but it's more doing that whilst putting Valuev in the top 40 because you think he has a padded resume.

Now if the criteria is based on who beats who, then personally I don't see Wilder making the top 10. As I'm not convinced he can beat all of the current top 10 let alone from a pool of the last 20 years.

[gilgamesh]

My point is, I don't know how Dr. Duke could have Wilder at 8 and Valuev only in the top 40.

Cause Wilder proved quite well, that he can be dangerous to anybody, as he did provide danger for every opponent he faced, including Fury. And Valuev lost to Larry Donald, shot Holyfield, John Ruiz X2 in addition to his official losses.

Valuev was utter crap, not a boxer at all, overblown fraud and just a circus tallman.

He was a guy who achieved all the success and notoriety that he did strictly on his size, and the unique advantages it gave him both as a fighter and as a promotable attraction.

He was pretty average other than that. Tough, but average skill at best.

[DrDuke]

I have watched some of Valuev's fights actually. He made improvements in the final few years. Personally I didn't have a problem with Ruiz getting a draw, but he didn't beat Valuev.
Hollyfield, yeah, sure.
But yeah Valuev was lumbering, but had a pretty good jab. And his size was always a problem.

Now the trouble is I've seen too much of Wilder to think there is a gulf in class between the two. Be it either highlights or full fights from next to every fight in Wilder's career. Including his 25th fight where he was fighting a fat former super middle weight prospect. Nothing has convinced me that he can stop Valuev let alone drop him, and his lack of boxing skills would result in a hard night's work, whether he got the victory or not.

For me it's not really an issue of putting Wilder top 10, his string of defence against cherry picked opposition earns him a spot, but it's more doing that whilst putting Valuev in the top 40 because you think he has a padded resume.

Now if the criteria is based on who beats who, then personally I don't see Wilder making the top 10. As I'm not convinced he can beat all of the current top 10 let alone from a pool of the last 20 years.

I'd say, both Wilder and Valuev had poor resumes, but Wilder's one edges, while Wilder has more convinving wins over his fringes than Valuev over his ones.

Actually, if you look on the list, you can easily imagine Wilder knocking out almost anyone, from top 10 range to top 40 range. And who there can be placed over Wilder, if Wilder is high?

And whom out of this list Valuev can beat without his judges? I'd say, very little.

Valuev was a much bigger cherry picker than Wilder and his wins were far less decisive.

[DrDuke]

My point is, I don't know how Dr. Duke could have Wilder at 8 and Valuev only in the top 40.

Cause Wilder proved quite well, that he can be dangerous to anybody, as he did provide danger for every opponent he faced, including Fury. And Valuev lost to Larry Donald, shot Holyfield, John Ruiz X2 in addition to his official losses.

Valuev was utter crap, not a boxer at all, overblown fraud and just a circus tallman.

He was a guy who achieved all the success and notoriety that he did strictly on his size, and the unique advantages it gave him both as a fighter and as a promotable attraction.

He was pretty average other than that. Tough, but average skill at best.

His skillset was worse than average. He couldn't move and dodge punches because of his size. His reflexes were unexistent. He could only jab and throw right hand. His cornermen were going mad, while telling him to throw variable combinations, but he just couldn't. Simple as that.

His size + cherry picking + corruption - that's the formula of Valuev's success.

[bobcatbox]

Wilder dropped Fury and got a draw in their first fight. Fury. Who is now the consensus best heavy in the world.

Wilder would have run through the lumbering giant the same way Max Baer exposes Primo.

[Finkel]

I have watched some of Valuev's fights actually. He made improvements in the final few years. Personally I didn't have a problem with Ruiz getting a draw, but he didn't beat Valuev.
Hollyfield, yeah, sure.
But yeah Valuev was lumbering, but had a pretty good jab. And his size was always a problem.

Now the trouble is I've seen too much of Wilder to think there is a gulf in class between the two. Be it either highlights or full fights from next to every fight in Wilder's career. Including his 25th fight where he was fighting a fat former super middle weight prospect. Nothing has convinced me that he can stop Valuev let alone drop him, and his lack of boxing skills would result in a hard night's work, whether he got the victory or not.

For me it's not really an issue of putting Wilder top 10, his string of defence against cherry picked opposition earns him a spot, but it's more doing that whilst putting Valuev in the top 40 because you think he has a padded resume.

Now if the criteria is based on who beats who, then personally I don't see Wilder making the top 10. As I'm not convinced he can beat all of the current top 10 let alone from a pool of the last 20 years.

I'd say, both Wilder and Valuev had poor resumes, but Wilder's one edges, while Wilder has more convinving wins over his fringes than Valuev over his ones.

Actually, if you look on the list, you can easily imagine Wilder knocking out almost anyone, from top 10 range to top 40 range. And who there can be placed over Wilder, if Wilder is high?

And whom out of this list Valuev can beat without his judges? I'd say, very little.

Valuev was a much bigger cherry picker than Wilder and his wins were far less decisive.

No one has been a bigger cherry picker than Wilder. His cherry picking is something books will be written about for its depth and breadth.

Wilder's resume is pure garbage. Going quickly to the Valuev comparison, I acknowledge a KO is pretty definitive, but I doubt Wilder would beat John Ruiz twice and he would've gotten washed by the Chagaev (not that Wilder's handlers would ever dare to match him with a top contender in their prime). And Haye is another one one who would have washed him. I could go through your list, but I would favour about 50% of your names.

Wilder literally beat up a list of nobodies for his first 31 fights, with the one highlight being a washed up 42 year-old Audrey Harrison who at that time was fighting in three-round tournaments organized by the BBC to maintain his celebrity status. That's poor...

Then there was the title eliminator against Malik Scott. Who clearly took a dive, and was another guy with a padded resume. And let's be honest, can anyone explain how either of them qualified for a title eliminator?

Then there was the "champion", a vacant belt which Stiverne picked up by beating Ariola
Who, I might add, Stivern had literally just beaten in his prior fight. The WBC were really scraping the barrel to make that fight. It's almost like they were trying to engineer Wilder into position solely because he was a photogenic American boxer.
(Joshua - Charles Martin vibes...)

Let's be honest here, Wilder's best wins would be considered step up fights for most heavyweight contenders. And whilst I recognised even the 40-something version of Ortiz is a solid opponent, that should be the guy you beat in an eliminator, not your career defining title defense.

So, yeah, beating a load of fringe euro level fighters, and former cruiser weights as title defenses does not an elite fighter make.

So again to your question of who beats him, probably half of your top 40 (who aren't undersized) would be favourites to beat Wilder if it was in a neutral venue. I say neutral venue as it seems we are taking away Valuev's A-side advantages in the assessment.

[Finkel]

Wilder dropped Fury and got a draw in their first fight. Fury. Who is now the consensus best heavy in the world.

Wilder would have run through the lumbering giant the same way Max Baer exposes Primo.

Think it would be more accurate to say that Wilder got a "draw" with "Fury.".

I'm a fan of Fury, btw, but he is not the consensus best heavy in the world. We need to see him fight Joshua for Undisputed first.

[bobcatbox]

The Wilder “cherry picking” narrative pretends to know that he and/or his handlers were somehow in control of the heavyweight division and boxing despite only having the WBC strap.

You could just as easily make a total assumption that Wilder was one of the most avoided fighters in boxing.

He fought Fury - #1 Heavy in the world - to a draw. True, it was Fury’s return. True, he was subsequently stopped by Fury.

Did you see AJ chomping at the bit to unify the belt with Wilder? How about Wlad? Did you see Whyte jumping in the ring? Pov? You’re telling me that NONE of those fights ever happened 100% because of Wilder and 0% because of any of them? Where is the proof for such a certain statement.

Here is just as plausible of a narrative as the one being thrown around here: the heavyweight division was at a very low point when Wilder captured the title. Especially American heavyweights. It improved a couple years later, but those guys preferred a shot at the lineal, aging champion Wlad and not the bombthrowing American who they’d have to fight overseas.

Nevertheless, how can you make a fight prediction based upon generalizations of a fighters record? You don’t even want to try to explain why - from a sports/athletics standpoint - Wilder couldn’t bring down Valuev? I don’t remember the big man having a terribly impressive defense. Or speed. At all. Wilder has immense power that we know for certain. If he came in throwing those wild shots, I would tend to believe one or more of them hurts Valuev.

Wilder’s rudimentary footwork adds to the fact that this would not be like the Haye fight. This would be over rather quickly as Wilder kept stepping in with wide shots. Big slow Valuev incapable of moving away or firing back in time.

[DrDuke]

No one has been a bigger cherry picker than Wilder. His cherry picking is something books will be written about for its depth and breadth.

Man, your really overrate Valuev. He was a bigger cherry picker than Wilder. Look how long he had a woeful bum diet. He was carefully introduced to the higher level, when the weaker era came. And still he was matched not against the best. And he was awarded with many decisions.

Wilder's resume is pure garbage. Going quickly to the Valuev comparison, I acknowledge a KO is pretty definitive, but I doubt Wilder would beat John Ruiz twice and he would've gotten washed by the Chagaev (not that Wilder's handlers would ever dare to match him with a top contender in their prime). And Haye is another one one who would have washed him. I could go through your list, but I would favour about 50% of your names.

Valuev's resume is even worse! 10 years of a bum diet and then an eliminator against Larry Donald, who deserved a win more than Valuev.

And "beat" is a too good word for what was in two Valuev's bouts against Ruiz, which easily could have gone to Ruiz. Wilder would KO Ruiz. He would get outhugged and then he'd KO Ruiz. Chagaev and Haye would outbox Wilder, but they would also be likely to get KOed, especially Chagaev. Haye just could KO Wilder earlier than Wilder caught him. Ortiz actually is on about the same level like those two. And those two toyed with Valuev. Valuev has never defeated an opponent like Ortiz. Valuev would be outboxed by Ortiz like by Chagaev.

[bobcatbox]

The Dr. said it better than I ever could.

I mean I know people want to hate on Wilder but guys seriously he would not lose to Valuev. Come on.

[Stanny Onis]

1 Wladimir Klitschko
2 Vitali Klitschko
3 Lennox Lewis
4 Tyson Fury
5 Anthony Joshua
6 Alexander Povetkin
7 Chris Byrd
8 Sultan Ibragimov
9 David Haye
10 Ruslan Chagaev

[margaret thatcher]

wlad and wilder had very little overlap as champs, i doubt there was much case of guys avoiding wilder to try to fight wlad. i would say whyte defo pushed for a wilder fight and tried to get it through the wbc mandatory route

wilder was matched with total trash for about 30 fights but once he won the title his opposition was fine, certainly he accomplished more than valuev and is better than him

[Finkel]

Bobcatbox, I'd rather play the ball than the man here. But that first half of your post is quite unbelievable given everything that has happened these last few years.

The Wilder “cherry picking” narrative pretends to know that he and/or his handlers were somehow in control of the heavyweight division and boxing despite only having the WBC strap.

Nope, Haymon and King didn't need to, but they did have way too much influence and help from the WBC organisation. There were conflicts of interest with WBC board members being associates of PBC. Did you not find it odd that all of Wilder's challengers were either
PBC or King fighters who had no business being there? Did you not find it odd that Wilder was always set to win on the cards even when he was clearly being outboxed in a number of his fights before the knock out came.

You could just as easily make a total assumption that Wilder was one of the most avoided fighters in boxing.

I guess if you have a passing interest in the sport, but all the mounting evidence over the years points to the exact opposite.

He fought Fury - #1 Heavy in the world - to a draw. True, it was Fury’s return. True, he was subsequently stopped by Fury.

Again I'm a Fury fan but no one believed that when they fought. People thought Fury had no business being in a title fight in his condition at the time, and they still needed a robbery on the cards to get the draw for Wilder. Fury was a cherry pick gone wrong.

Did you see AJ chomping at the bit to unify the belt with Wilder?

Wilder literally let the cat out of the bag only this last month that it was his side stopping that fight.

How about Wlad?

Finkel would not let Wilder anywhere near Wlad. It's well documented by direct quotes.

Did you see Whyte jumping in the ring?

Well that again is well documented how Whyte fought eliminators, but was overlooked time and again by the WBC for Batman and Kings fighters who again had achieved a fraction of what Whyte had in the rankings, so...yeah there that.
Also there was Wilder openly flaunting this fact with the direct message saying he was going to make Whyte wait for 2 years.

Pov?

You do know Pov won the court case against Wilder right.

You’re telling me that NONE of those fights ever happened 100% because of Wilder and 0% because of any of them? Where is the proof for such a certain statement.

That is exactly what I am telling you, yes.

The first half of your post is unfortunately how they get away with it all, because I'm sure like yourself, most people don't have time or inclination to keep track of all the politics that go on.

Here is just as plausible of a narrative as the one being thrown around here

Um actually what is written above is based on evidence, the narrative I wrote is not purely subjective, your alternative narrative goes against what evidence there is.

the heavyweight division was at a very low point when Wilder captured the title. Especially American heavyweights.

Agreed

It improved a couple years later, but those guys preferred a shot at the lineal, aging champion Wlad

agreed, and they didn't fancy their chances against Vitalli.

and not the bombthrowing American who they’d have to fight overseas.

disagree, as explained no one was allowed near him that wasn't a Hayman or King fighter.

Nevertheless, how can you make a fight prediction based upon generalizations of a fighters record?

You make it sound like I'm basing this on only his box rec. I'm making my generations having looking at box rec, looking at his opponents and watching tape. He has built a fear reputation by first knocking out 31 bums on the American circuit. Then knocking out hand picked fights from his own stable and a very weak champion in Stiverne (who he couldn't stop in the first fight)

You don’t even want to try to explain why - from a sports/athletics standpoint - Wilder couldn’t bring down Valuev?

I have explained in previous posts before I replied to you. You obviously read them to even give the opinion that you thought Wilder beats Valuev. Note you were the one who gave no explanation, not me. I merely replied to you in kind with a throwaway comment that I disagreed.

So...
Has anyone ever dropped Valuev? He clearly wasn't dropped by Ruiz in the second fight which people point too. I would argue that Haye would have knocked out everyone on Wilder's resume, but he could only hurt Value. One shot, over 12 rounds which Valuev quickly recovered from.

Haye was a far superior boxer, and Wilder stopped boxing to instruction years ago. So why do you think Wilder could drop Valuev let alone stop him?

I don’t remember the big man having a terribly impressive defense. Or speed. At all.

Maybe not impressive, but it was effective at clinching and positioning his opponents within arm's reach.

Wilder has immense power that we know for certain.

Wilder obviously has very good power, but it's also overated. He knocked out fighters he was expected to knock out. As I say, he couldn't stop Stiverne, and he couldn't stop Fury, so I think Valuev's chin would be fine.

If he came in throwing those wild shots, I would tend to believe one or more of them hurts Valuev.

I agree, but I suspect he would also get himself hurt doing that.

Wilder’s rudimentary footwork adds to the fact that this would not be like the Haye fight. This would be over rather quickly as Wilder kept stepping in with wide shots. Big slow Valuev incapable of moving away or firing back in time.

Possible outcome. But I think you vastly overate Wilders boxing ability and underate Valuev's weapons. Valuev isnt Dominic Breazeale.

I stand by my statement that the blue print for Valuev was to outbox him, not try to blast him out of there.

[Finkel]

wlad and wilder had very little overlap as champs, i doubt there was much case of guys avoiding wilder to try to fight wlad. i would say whyte defo pushed for a wilder fight and tried to get it through the wbc mandatory route

wilder was matched with total trash for about 30 fights but once he won the title his opposition was fine, certainly he accomplished more than valuev and is better than him

I don't disagree with too much of that. But come on man, his level opposition was only fine if he was a 90s WBO champ. He didn't face a realistic challenger until Ortiz 1 and that was a controversial win.

He was the WBC belt holder (the most prestigious strap), and he fought nothing but stablemates and fringe euro-level fighters. His 2 mandatories both were on long layoffs and were King or Hayman fighters. It was a closed shop over there.

But I do agree he was likely better than Valuev, just not THAT much better to have Wilder top 10 and Value top 40.

[Finkel]

No one has been a bigger cherry picker than Wilder. His cherry picking is something books will be written about for its depth and breadth.

Man, your really overrate Valuev. He was a bigger cherry picker than Wilder. Look how long he had a woeful bum diet. He was carefully introduced to the higher level, when the weaker era came. And still he was matched not against the best. And he was awarded with many decisions.

Wilder's resume is pure garbage. Going quickly to the Valuev comparison, I acknowledge a KO is pretty definitive, but I doubt Wilder would beat John Ruiz twice and he would've gotten washed by the Chagaev (not that Wilder's handlers would ever dare to match him with a top contender in their prime). And Haye is another one one who would have washed him. I could go through your list, but I would favour about 50% of your names.

Valuev's resume is even worse! 10 years of a bum diet and then an eliminator against Larry Donald, who deserved a win more than Valuev.

Wilders eliminator took a dive and the fight was under investigation.
That's a +1 for Valuev in comparison

And "beat" is a too good word for what was in two Valuev's bouts against Ruiz, which easily could have gone to Ruiz. Wilder would KO Ruiz. He would get outhugged and then he'd KO Ruiz. Chagaev and Haye would outbox Wilder, but they would also be likely to get KOed, especially Chagaev. Haye just could KO Wilder earlier than Wilder caught him. Ortiz actually is on about the same level like those two. And those two toyed with Valuev. Valuev has never defeated an opponent like Ortiz. Valuev would be outboxed by Ortiz like by Chagaev.

Remind me how many champions who dethroned a previous champion has Wilder beaten again? Oh? Zero? Okay, One.
You brought up that Wilder stopped former WBO champion Liakhovich with a first round KO. What you didn't mention was the same Liakhovich had been stopped in both his previous fights, was on an 18 month lay off, and far removed from the fighter Briggs KO'd 7 years earlier.
Another +1 for Valuev

But jokes aside, I also think Ortiz would beat him. Hmm he's old enough, they were both active, was Valuev also ducking Ortiz?!

Also as I keep saying I think Wilder could beat Valuev. But I give Ortiz far more of a chance than Wilder as he can actually box.

[Finkel]

1 Wladimir Klitschko
2 Vitali Klitschko
3 Lennox Lewis
4 Tyson Fury
5 Anthony Joshua
6 Alexander Povetkin
7 Chris Byrd
8 Sultan Ibragimov
9 David Haye
10 Ruslan Chagaev

Hoof - sorry that got buried in our back and forth.

[bobcatbox]

Bobcatbox, I'd rather play the ball than the man here. But that first half of your post is quite unbelievable given everything that has happened these last few years.

The Wilder “cherry picking” narrative pretends to know that he and/or his handlers were somehow in control of the heavyweight division and boxing despite only having the WBC strap.

Nope, Haymon and King didn't need to, but they did have way too much influence and help from the WBC organisation. There were conflicts of interest with WBC board members being associates of PBC. Did you not find it odd that all of Wilder's challengers were either
PBC or King fighters who had no business being there? Did you not find it odd that Wilder was always set to win on the cards even when he was clearly being outboxed in a number of his fights before the knock out came.

You could just as easily make a total assumption that Wilder was one of the most avoided fighters in boxing.

I guess if you have a passing interest in the sport, but all the mounting evidence over the years points to the exact opposite.

He fought Fury - #1 Heavy in the world - to a draw. True, it was Fury’s return. True, he was subsequently stopped by Fury.

Again I'm a Fury fan but no one believed that when they fought. People thought Fury had no business being in a title fight in his condition at the time, and they still needed a robbery on the cards to get the draw for Wilder. Fury was a cherry pick gone wrong.

Did you see AJ chomping at the bit to unify the belt with Wilder?

Wilder literally let the cat out of the bag only this last month that it was his side stopping that fight.

How about Wlad?

Finkel would not let Wilder anywhere near Wlad. It's well documented by direct quotes.

Did you see Whyte jumping in the ring?

Well that again is well documented how Whyte fought eliminators, but was overlooked time and again by the WBC for Batman and Kings fighters who again had achieved a fraction of what Whyte had in the rankings, so...yeah there that.
Also there was Wilder openly flaunting this fact with the direct message saying he was going to make Whyte wait for 2 years.

Pov?

You do know Pov won the court case against Wilder right.

You’re telling me that NONE of those fights ever happened 100% because of Wilder and 0% because of any of them? Where is the proof for such a certain statement.

That is exactly what I am telling you, yes.

The first half of your post is unfortunately how they get away with it all, because I'm sure like yourself, most people don't have time or inclination to keep track of all the politics that go on.

Here is just as plausible of a narrative as the one being thrown around here

Um actually what is written above is based on evidence, the narrative I wrote is not purely subjective, your alternative narrative goes against what evidence there is.

the heavyweight division was at a very low point when Wilder captured the title. Especially American heavyweights.

Agreed

It improved a couple years later, but those guys preferred a shot at the lineal, aging champion Wlad

agreed, and they didn't fancy their chances against Vitalli.

and not the bombthrowing American who they’d have to fight overseas.

disagree, as explained no one was allowed near him that wasn't a Hayman or King fighter.

Nevertheless, how can you make a fight prediction based upon generalizations of a fighters record?

You make it sound like I'm basing this on only his box rec. I'm making my generations having looking at box rec, looking at his opponents and watching tape. He has built a fear reputation by first knocking out 31 bums on the American circuit. Then knocking out hand picked fights from his own stable and a very weak champion in Stiverne (who he couldn't stop in the first fight)

You don’t even want to try to explain why - from a sports/athletics standpoint - Wilder couldn’t bring down Valuev?

I have explained in previous posts before I replied to you. You obviously read them to even give the opinion that you thought Wilder beats Valuev. Note you were the one who gave no explanation, not me. I merely replied to you in kind with a throwaway comment that I disagreed.

So...
Has anyone ever dropped Valuev? He clearly wasn't dropped by Ruiz in the second fight which people point too. I would argue that Haye would have knocked out everyone on Wilder's resume, but he could only hurt Value. One shot, over 12 rounds which Valuev quickly recovered from.

Haye was a far superior boxer, and Wilder stopped boxing to instruction years ago. So why do you think Wilder could drop Valuev let alone stop him?

I don’t remember the big man having a terribly impressive defense. Or speed. At all.

Maybe not impressive, but it was effective at clinching and positioning his opponents within arm's reach.

Wilder has immense power that we know for certain.

Wilder obviously has very good power, but it's also overated. He knocked out fighters he was expected to knock out. As I say, he couldn't stop Stiverne, and he couldn't stop Fury, so I think Valuev's chin would be fine.

If he came in throwing those wild shots, I would tend to believe one or more of them hurts Valuev.

I agree, but I suspect he would also get himself hurt doing that.

Wilder’s rudimentary footwork adds to the fact that this would not be like the Haye fight. This would be over rather quickly as Wilder kept stepping in with wide shots. Big slow Valuev incapable of moving away or firing back in time.

Possible outcome. But I think you vastly overate Wilders boxing ability and underate Valuev's weapons. Valuev isnt Dominic Breazeale.

I stand by my statement that the blue print for Valuev was to outbox him, not try to blast him out of there.

I can acknowledge when bested. You dropped some legit knowledge on me that I admit I was not aware of.

I was mainly triggered by the notion that Valuev would beat Wilder. Which is a prediction I honestly can’t accept because I don’t think it gives Wilder nearly enough credit and Valuev far too much. But I respect it good post.

[Finkel]

Thanks.

But actually it's fair enough to call me out. I can admit I often don't give Wilder enough credit.

And yeah I'm being overzealous when it comes to his resume. A lot of champions have had some questionable Wins and opposition.

Personally, I would still put Wilder top 20 of the last 20 years. And even with me taking serious issue with how he was managed, it's the heavyweight division and there is always the threat of a KO. So he deserves some credit for navigating so many title defenses irrespective of the quality of opponent.

Also if he retired now, he gets in the HoF. So what do I know.

[candyslim]

Oh absolutely. Surely the question Isn't even up for debate. Now if you'd said top 3 or even top 5 you'd have left room for discussion and this thread might have run for 12 pages or more ... Oh wait.

[DrDuke]

That's a +1 for Valuev in comparison

And "beat" is a too good word for what was in two Valuev's bouts against Ruiz, which easily could have gone to Ruiz. Wilder would KO Ruiz. He would get outhugged and then he'd KO Ruiz. Chagaev and Haye would outbox Wilder, but they would also be likely to get KOed, especially Chagaev. Haye just could KO Wilder earlier than Wilder caught him. Ortiz actually is on about the same level like those two. And those two toyed with Valuev. Valuev has never defeated an opponent like Ortiz. Valuev would be outboxed by Ortiz like by Chagaev.

Remind me how many champions who dethroned a previous champion has Wilder beaten again? Oh? Zero? Okay, One.
You brought up that Wilder stopped former WBO champion Liakhovich with a first round KO. What you didn't mention was the same Liakhovich had been stopped in both his previous fights, was on an 18 month lay off, and far removed from the fighter Briggs KO'd 7 years earlier.
Another +1 for Valuev

But jokes aside, I also think Ortiz would beat him. Hmm he's old enough, they were both active, was Valuev also ducking Ortiz?!

Also as I keep saying I think Wilder could beat Valuev. But I give Ortiz far more of a chance than Wilder as he can actually box.

Plus to Valuev for losing to Larry Donald and going a distance with already irrelevant Liakhovich? Good jokes indeed.

Talking about Wilder's boxing, it's fair to say, that, despite overall poor Wilder's boxing abilities, he at least boxed against Stiverne better than Valuev had ever done against anybody.

[Finkel]

I see you've got jokes too!

Plus to Valuev for losing to Larry Donald

So I did my due diligence and watched it back. Whilst I agree that the Japanese judge had that fight too wide in favour of Valuev. There was nothing controversial about a Valuev win. Donald's problem was you aren't going to win when you're giving up so much reach and your tactic is to fight.on the back foot, so all you can do is touch a guy with the jab and throw straights whilst retreating for the majority of the rounds. His corner warned him repeatedly to come forward.

He wasn't controlling the distance and as slick as Donald was his defense wasn't up to scratch that night either. For all Donald's good work he was constantly taking far heavier body shots and jabs to the face. If he had put his hands up and gave up trying to unsuccessfully slip a jab that kept landing, then he would have likely won.

But you can't expect him to get a decision, especially when he wasn't the home fighter by giving up so many rounds and then throwing ineffective flurries into gloves, shoulders and elbows, all the while the bigger guy was constantly walking him down and landing a jab he was actually stepping into.

Now granted Donald had the two best individual rounds in Rounds 4 and 8, and also closed the fight well in the 12th. But it was really too much styling, not enough substance, imho

Here's the link I watched without English commentary

and going a distance with already irrelevant Liakhovich? Good jokes indeed.

Come on man
So when Wilder KOs the guy coming off two straight stoppage losses it's note worthy enough for you to bring up, but when Valuev beat him years earlier when Liakhovich was in his come back fight after losing the title suddenly he was already irrelevant?

Talking about Wilder's boxing, it's fair to say, that, despite overall poor Wilder's boxing abilities, he at least boxed against Stiverne better than Valuev had ever done against anybody.

Sure, whatever, it was a performance for the ages...

To quote boxing scene (2008)
"Valuev steadily became a better fighter and it was showing in the ring.  His clear shutout of Sergei Liakhovich this past February showcased a superior jab and a nice technical style."

[Enlightened-One]

I hate to interject because this isn't my argument, but Sky Sports' commentator, Jim Watt, had Valuev beating David Haye by two points on his scorecard. And before the announcement of the outcome, the veteran Scot said he'd be surprised if the judges would be swayed by Haye's hit-and-run tactics.

The Guardian thought it was a draw.

Two of the official judges scorecards considered Haye a winner by an uncomfortably wide 116-112 margin. Those scorecards just didn't seem right to me.

Valuev was a solid performer. A tricky opponent for anyone to overcome.

[DrDuke]

Now granted Donald had the two best individual rounds in Rounds 4 and 8, and also closed the fight well in the 12th. But it was really too much styling, not enough substance, imho

I had it 117-111 for Donald. He simply outboxed Valuev. I gave Valuev only rounds 2, 5, 11.

Come on man
So when Wilder KOs the guy coming off two straight stoppage losses it's note worthy enough for you to bring up, but when Valuev beat him years earlier when Liakhovich was in his come back fight after losing the title suddenly he was already irrelevant?

Of course, he was. He was KOed by Shannon Briggs FFS. That Shannon Briggs, who hadn't won a living body in ages and got schooled by McCline and Ibragimov in the nearby more or less big bouts.