What division would Marciano fight in today?

[Controversial]

To compare qawi with Marciano is ludicrous

I wasn’t comparing him to Qawi. I was using Qawi as another example of a small fighter around the same weight as Marciano and asking if he could be a major success at HW today if people think Marciano would be. I don’t think Qawi would, not because he wasn’t good enough (he was more skilful than Marciano) but because he would’ve been too small.

Marciano may have fought at HW today but he wouldn’t be undefeated and he wouldn’t be the dominant name either. He would have more success at the lower weights.

[Tuan_Jim]

We need to get away from being obsessed with size. Maybe 6'3-6'4 and 215-225 is ideal. However, there is going to be exceptions from time to time. This happens in other sports. Dennis Rodman was not anywhere near the biggest guy in the NBA, but led the league in rebounding several times. Charles Barkley was shorter and was one of the top rebounders for a long time.

Bob Fitzsimmons was smaller in his era. He did well against bigger opponents, some much bigger.
There are 250 pound plus guys like Whitaker that could not punch at all. There are big guys like Buster Mathis Sr. who could move very well.
If a guy who weighs 185 can puncher harder than a guy well over 200, so be it.

Yes of course size isn't the be all and end all. But Marciano never fought anyone those dimensions who was world class. You bulk Marciano up to 215 he likely losses stamina. Yes he punched hard but he was fighting guys his size in most cases, with the odd exception. Marciano had 38 fights against guys under 200lb. Only 5 opponents weighed over 210. When they were much bigger, as in today sized HW, they were normally journeymen. Size does matter, not always granted, but when the opponent is world class or can fight then it comes into play.

Not quite that big, but bigger than him. Walcott, was around 200 and looked closer to 220. Louis (granted an older Louis), was almost that big.
I don't think Marciano would have weighed 215. He would have probably weigh under 200. He would still be one of the hardest punchers in the sport, and would have the highest work rate. You would also have to consider this: They would have to adjust to him. They would be facing a guy who had a much faster work rate than what they were used to.
Dempsey (who was not much bigger) crushed big heavyweights. Not hard to imagine Marciano doing the same. It Certainly would not be hopeless.

Yes, it seems the size obsessives can never look beyond height and weight, and simply picture the big guy jumping on the small guy and having it all his own way. Yet John Ruiz wrestled monsters like Valuev and McCline but couldn't Jones; he took right hands from Rahman and Golota but Jones at under 200lbs spooked him. Willard we know was wrecked by Dempsey, Louis flattened giants. Marciano would be an extremely awkward opponent, hard to hit and dangerous to get near, before you even consider his gas tank and will power. Wilder has no talent or chin, Joshua has no stamina or chin, and got bashed around by a morbidly obese cruiser, and Fury has been down a couple of times versus cruisers.

Seems short sighted to write the man off.

[Controversial]

Yes, it seems the size obsessives can never look beyond height and weight, and simply picture the big guy jumping on the small guy and having it all his own way. Yet John Ruiz wrestled monsters like Valuev and McCline but couldn't Jones; he took right hands from Rahman and Golota but Jones at under 200lbs spooked him. Willard we know was wrecked by Dempsey, Louis flattened giants. Marciano would be an extremely awkward opponent, hard to hit and dangerous to get near, before you even consider his gas tank and will power. Wilder has no talent or chin, Joshua has no stamina or chin, and got bashed around by a morbidly obese cruiser, and Fury has been down a couple of times versus cruisers.

Seems short sighted to write the man off.

You can play that game with Marciano too. By many accounts the often beaten 179lb Ted Lowry beat him. Marciano hard a war with an untested 189lb Vingo. He had a SD win against 187lb LaStarza, many think he lost. He was dropped by 188lb Moore, an old blown up LHW. If he was struggling against guys that size I'm not sure why he would find it easier against fighters so much bigger and stronger. Lets also remember the lions share of Marciano's wins were against poor opposition and the better ones had seen better days.

[gp.]

Christ... They got down to the weight first. How much they eat and drink and gain afterwards is irrelevant. They first got down to the weight.

Marciano never got down to 175, and weighed 178 one time while young and in his first 10 fights. Could Razor Ruddock when he was in his prime have gone back down to 184 because he weighed it one time early in his career?

Those of us who have actually read about Marciano and are informed about the man -- i.e. not you -- know how hard he trained to get himself in shape, and what he would put his body through in his lengthy camps. He was one of the fittest heavyweight champs ever, and to suggest at 184 he could lose more weight and get down to 175 is risible.

There's a big difference between losing weight through getting into shape and losing weight through dehydration and weight cutting. Marciano would never have done the latter ever in his career - there was absolutely no reason for him to do so - so you can deduct fifteen pounds or so from his weight easily just as you can any career heavyweight, whatever shape they are in. Anthony Joshua would weigh less at the weigh-in if there was any advantage to him weighing less; there isn't, so he doesn't bother with the stuff fighters in weight-limited divisions do. Anyone comfortably weighing in at 190 without cutting could make 175 with cutting. Could Ruddock have made 184 when he was 240, no, but he could have made 220 then if he had needed to. He didn't need to so he didn't.

[Controversial]

Christ... They got down to the weight first. How much they eat and drink and gain afterwards is irrelevant. They first got down to the weight.

Marciano never got down to 175, and weighed 178 one time while young and in his first 10 fights. Could Razor Ruddock when he was in his prime have gone back down to 184 because he weighed it one time early in his career?

Those of us who have actually read about Marciano and are informed about the man -- i.e. not you -- know how hard he trained to get himself in shape, and what he would put his body through in his lengthy camps. He was one of the fittest heavyweight champs ever, and to suggest at 184 he could lose more weight and get down to 175 is risible.

There's a big difference between losing weight through getting into shape and losing weight through dehydration and weight cutting. Marciano would never have done the latter ever in his career - there was absolutely no reason for him to do so - so you can deduct fifteen pounds or so from his weight easily just as you can any career heavyweight, whatever shape they are in. Anthony Joshua would weigh less at the weigh-in if there was any advantage to him weighing less; there isn't, so he doesn't bother with the stuff fighters in weight-limited divisions do. Anyone comfortably weighing in at 190 without cutting could make 175 with cutting. Could Ruddock have made 184 when he was 240, no, but he could have made 220 then if he had needed to. He didn't need to so he didn't.

Exactly, well said. This is the game. Marciano would have more of an advantage at LHW because his opponents would be of a similar height and build. On fight night he'd easily be around the 190 region where his strength and conditioning would be an advantage. At HW he'd just make his life very difficult being that much smaller and his strength and power wouldn't be as effective.

[Tuan_Jim]

Yes, it seems the size obsessives can never look beyond height and weight, and simply picture the big guy jumping on the small guy and having it all his own way. Yet John Ruiz wrestled monsters like Valuev and McCline but couldn't Jones; he took right hands from Rahman and Golota but Jones at under 200lbs spooked him. Willard we know was wrecked by Dempsey, Louis flattened giants. Marciano would be an extremely awkward opponent, hard to hit and dangerous to get near, before you even consider his gas tank and will power. Wilder has no talent or chin, Joshua has no stamina or chin, and got bashed around by a morbidly obese cruiser, and Fury has been down a couple of times versus cruisers.

Seems short sighted to write the man off.

You can play that game with Marciano too. By many accounts the often beaten 179lb Ted Lowry beat him. Marciano hard a war with an untested 189lb Vingo. He had a SD win against 187lb LaStarza, many think he lost. He was dropped by 188lb Moore, an old blown up LHW. If he was struggling against guys that size I'm not sure why he would find it easier against fighters so much bigger and stronger. Lets also remember the lions share of Marciano's wins were against poor opposition and the better ones had seen better days.

Ali was down v Banks and Cooper. Did Liston, Foreman, Lyle or Shavers score one KD over him between them?

Haye was down against cruisers and heavily against Mock, a super middle. Did Valuev or Klitschko knock him down?

Byrd got a gift versus Art Williams but had it easy with many behemoths.

[Controversial]

Yes, it seems the size obsessives can never look beyond height and weight, and simply picture the big guy jumping on the small guy and having it all his own way. Yet John Ruiz wrestled monsters like Valuev and McCline but couldn't Jones; he took right hands from Rahman and Golota but Jones at under 200lbs spooked him. Willard we know was wrecked by Dempsey, Louis flattened giants. Marciano would be an extremely awkward opponent, hard to hit and dangerous to get near, before you even consider his gas tank and will power. Wilder has no talent or chin, Joshua has no stamina or chin, and got bashed around by a morbidly obese cruiser, and Fury has been down a couple of times versus cruisers.

Seems short sighted to write the man off.

You can play that game with Marciano too. By many accounts the often beaten 179lb Ted Lowry beat him. Marciano hard a war with an untested 189lb Vingo. He had a SD win against 187lb LaStarza, many think he lost. He was dropped by 188lb Moore, an old blown up LHW. If he was struggling against guys that size I'm not sure why he would find it easier against fighters so much bigger and stronger. Lets also remember the lions share of Marciano's wins were against poor opposition and the better ones had seen better days.

Ali was down v Banks and Cooper. Did Liston, Foreman, Lyle or Shavers score one KD over him between them?

Haye was down against cruisers and heavily against Mock, a super middle. Did Valuev or Klitschko knock him down?

Byrd got a gift versus Art Williams but had it easy with many behemoths.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Marciano wasn't elusive and/or fast like the above. He only knew one way to fight and that was to trade and wear guys down. No one is saying Marciano couldn't hurt a bigger guy, that isn't the argument. The point is to do that he would need to stand and slug it out with guys far more harder hitting, stronger and heavier than anyone he ever faced.

You only have to listen to Haye on various podcasts he's been interviewed on, he openly admits he struggled when he moved up from CW to HW in sparring because they were so much stronger than he was used to. Haye isn't a small guy either, same size as Ali (6'3" with 78" reach). Thats why he ran from Klitschko and Valuev.

BEST I FACED - David Haye

STRONGEST
Derek Chisora: Definitely Chisora, he was very strong, and it took a big effort in training camp to get myself physically in the right place to walk Derek Chisora back.

BEST PUNCHER
Monte Barrett: I remember him hitting me and being shocked at the difference in punch power between him and the cruiserweights. He was a very heavy-handed guy.


BEST OVERALL
Klitschko/ Valuev: Either Wladimir Klitschko or Valuev, one of those two. I’d love for them to have fought each other. I’d love to have seen how Wladimir would have dealt with someone a lot bigger than himself. He always seemed to have the physical advantages over people. It’s a mixture of the two, they’re the two most difficult, they had such physical advantages over me. I was able to implement my plan significantly better against Valuev. If I fought Wladimir the same night I fought Valuev, I believe the result may have been different. I knew that wasn’t the best of me. It’s very close between Wladimir and Valuev. It sounds crazy because I lost to one and beat one, but the fights were at different times in my life. Lots of things were different before both of those fights. To be fair to both of them, I’d say 50-50.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ridiculous to put stock in these "Best I faced" comments. They are meaningless.

Yes Marciano was not perfect. He had weaknesses. He had performances that don't seem to be that impressive. Fair game to bring that up. It's silly to do the weight thing and blow him off. It has shown time after time that the weight "advantage" by itself doesn't mean much at heavyweight.

[Tuan_Jim]

Haye had a glass chin. Also, anyone who says Chisora is stronger than Valuev or that Barret is a bigger puncher than Wlad is unreliable.

Okay, Holyfield was addicted to brawling at cruiser and got buzzed by Qawi and DeLeon, and was even decked by pumped up cruiser Cooper. Sounds like guaranteed quickie KO loser against Foreman, Tyson, Bowe and Lewis then. Dempsey KOd by Flynn, Willard will squish his brains etc etc. 190 Schmeling KOs Louis, so Brown Bomber gets rolled over by 250 Simon, B. Baer blah blah blaerh

There's no sequence of words you can construct that will make me rule out Marciano having the capacity to be a winning heavy in the modern era.

[Cojimar 1946]

I don't think Marciano's work rate would pose the problems some are suggesting. I've been watching his fights and counting the punches thrown and while he is very active its certainly not beyond what some heavyweights today are capable of.

[pound per pound]

Rocky, like many past greats at heavyweight would be a cruiserweight today. At least that is where he would start.

Sure he could easily make 200 pounds, but how many 200-210 pound heavyweights can you name in the past 30 years that are 5'10" 1/2 with a very short reach of 67". That would be zero.

In Rocky's time, there wasn't a large disparity between his weight and the top contenders, and the punchers were fewer, so his lack of size was easier to over come.

A modern heavyweight is roughly three weight classes above what we saw in the 1950's. While the skill level was a little better in the 1950's, the height, reach, and hitting power is much greater today.

[Duran1970]

Marciano hits harder than any Heavy today

[Controversial]

Marciano hits harder than any Heavy today

Based on what, knocking out blown up LHWs or having to hit Moore and Cockell with everything he had round after round to stop them?

[Duran1970]

Eyesight.

[oogiebe]

Eyesight.

Seriously, these threads surely devolve into trollville.

[Ambling Alp II]

Marciano was a very hard puncher who threw a lot of punches. Sounds simple, but that a lone makes you a dangerous fighter.

[cfang]

I wonder how many of the 500,000 Americans killed in ww2 may have been boxers peaking in rockys era. Does this make his era weaker?

Yes, it seems the size obsessives can never look beyond height and weight, and simply picture the big guy jumping on the small guy and having it all his own way. Yet John Ruiz wrestled monsters like Valuev and McCline but couldn't Jones; he took right hands from Rahman and Golota but Jones at under 200lbs spooked him. Willard we know was wrecked by Dempsey, Louis flattened giants. Marciano would be an extremely awkward opponent, hard to hit and dangerous to get near, before you even consider his gas tank and will power. Wilder has no talent or chin, Joshua has no stamina or chin, and got bashed around by a morbidly obese cruiser, and Fury has been down a couple of times versus cruisers.

Seems short sighted to write the man off.

You can play that game with Marciano too. By many accounts the often beaten 179lb Ted Lowry beat him. Marciano hard a war with an untested 189lb Vingo. He had a SD win against 187lb LaStarza, many think he lost. He was dropped by 188lb Moore, an old blown up LHW. If he was struggling against guys that size I'm not sure why he would find it easier against fighters so much bigger and stronger. Lets also remember the lions share of Marciano's wins were against poor opposition and the better ones had seen better days.