Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑10 Dec 2020, 05:40
It's a bit of a leap to think that somewhere among the dead there would have been heavyweights, and among them world class heavyweights, and among them one good enough to topple Marciano. The statistical likelihood must be near zero.
Yes. Also most top fighters start boxing in childhood/adolescence, so it's not even about potential talent amongst that group, it would need to be someone who had already been training that talent for years before going off to fight.
Marciano didn't box from childhood, coincidently he took the sport up when drafted into the army, he was around 23 when he he turned pro. However it's more how boxing was affected in general, for example Ezzard Charles never had one fight in 1945 due to national service. Conscription meant hundreds of thousands of young men were called up to fight, so whatever sport they were in would have been affected as they were sent overseas and many never to return or not the same men when they came back.
Thomas Hauser wrote World War II also had an impact on boxing. More than 4,000 active professional fighters served in the United States military during the conflict. Many of them were forever denied their chance for ring glory. They came out of the war with their bodies broken or didn't come home at all.
Joe Louis enlisted in the United States Army in 1942. Rather than assign him to active combat, the Army placed him in Special Services, a role in which he participated in close to one hundred boxing exhibitions. There were no "champions in recess" or "champions emeritus" in those days. The Brown Bomber's championship was frozen for the duration of the war. He defended his title on March 27, 1942, and not again until June 9, 1946.
Active fighters who served in the military during World War II included Ezzard Charles, Joey Maxim, Billy Conn, Gus Lesnevich, Fred Apostoli, Freddie Cochrane, Lew Jenkins, Bob Montgomery, Beau Jack, Marty Servo, and Tony Zale. Each of them was a world champion at one time or another during his ring career.
Meanwhile, during the war, boxing went on. Fight cards were filled by fighters who were too old or too young to serve in the military, had physical conditions that disqualified them from military service, or were otherwise ineligible to serve. Madison Square Garden (the Mecca of Boxing) was often reduced to featuring club-level fighters in main events.
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Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑10 Dec 2020, 05:40
It's a bit of a leap to think that somewhere among the dead there would have been heavyweights, and among them world class heavyweights, and among them one good enough to topple Marciano. The statistical likelihood must be near zero.
Yes. Also most top fighters start boxing in childhood/adolescence, so it's not even about potential talent amongst that group, it would need to be someone who had already been training that talent for years before going off to fight.
Marciano didn't box from childhood, coincidently he took the sport up when drafted into the army, he was around 23 when he he turned pro. However it's more how boxing was affected in general, for example Ezzard Charles never had one fight in 1945 due to national service. Conscription meant hundreds of thousands of young men were called up to fight, so whatever sport they were in would have been affected as they went sent overseas and many never to return or not the same men when they came back.
Sure. But we were responding to the question you had quoted from cfang.
cfang wrote: ↑09 Dec 2020, 15:04
I wonder how many of the 500,000 Americans killed in ww2 may have been boxers peaking in rockys era. Does this make his era weaker?
Yes. Also most top fighters start boxing in childhood/adolescence, so it's not even about potential talent amongst that group, it would need to be someone who had already been training that talent for years before going off to fight.
Marciano didn't box from childhood, coincidently he took the sport up when drafted into the army, he was around 23 when he he turned pro. However it's more how boxing was affected in general, for example Ezzard Charles never had one fight in 1945 due to national service. Conscription meant hundreds of thousands of young men were called up to fight, so whatever sport they were in would have been affected as they went sent overseas and many never to return or not the same men when they came back.
Sure. But we were responding to the question you had quoted from cfang.
cfang wrote: ↑09 Dec 2020, 15:04
I wonder how many of the 500,000 Americans killed in ww2 may have been boxers peaking in rockys era. Does this make his era weaker?
Same thing isn't it, he asked how many deaths in WW2 would have been peaking in that era.
It probably prolonged the reigns of both Joe Louis and Tony Zale both of whom served I believe. I know Louis did, pretty sure Zale did also.
The approach of World War 2 made Louis and Max Schmeling 2 what it was. Louis avenging his loss would've been a big deal anyway historically speaking, but when you add in the National Pride and the ramifications of all that, it meant so much more.
also Boxing was taught not only in College but in American High Schools back then and had Boxing Teams.
I think Carmen Basilo (born 1927)may have been one of the last to have taken Boxing classes in H.S in the 1940's.
He once said if the school did not have a Boxing Team he would never had gone to school.
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orbtastic wrote: ↑10 Dec 2020, 14:18
If you’re looking at it that way then looking at 500k deaths is flawed. You should be looking at maimed/injuries too. That number is way way higher.
This has been covered in original post
Controversial wrote: ↑30 Oct 2012, 06:47
WW2 (1941-45): 405,399 killed and 670,846 wounded
Korea (1950-53): 36,416 killed and 92,134 wounded
Vietnam (1955-73): 58,209 killed and 153,303 wounded
Total American casualties in WW2, Korea and Vietnam: 500,024 killed and 916,283 injured. Of course the figures don't include all the men that came back with no physical injuries but were mentally ruined with post-traumatic stress disorder, mental health problems and the huge amounts who would later commit suicide.
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jimglen wrote: ↑10 Dec 2020, 17:31
Countries too, Europe for example was hit heavier than the US. so that's a factor.
Yep for sure, Europe was a war zone for years, total deaths in WW2 are estimated to be upto 85 million people, again when you factor in injuries on top of that figure and the damage caused to countries buildings/infrastructure etc, the knock-on effects were immense.
I think its fair to say just looking at numbers of participants and the ww2 effect there must have been a higher standard of boxing in the years pre war to post. Generally the bigger pool of participants the harder it is to get to the top?
Rockys era was weak in my view. Cockell would not have got a shot in another era and the whole of murderers row (who didnt get shots anyway) were getting older and fading away. The pool of better and bigger heavys came into play from the late 50s.
Btw rocky was a great fighter who despite his size would have given many heavy champs from other eras problems but its just fair to say his era wasn't strong and outside the top, it was very thin indeed.
Check out the ring top ten heavys in 53 54 55. Many names on there who were old lt heavys or didnt have stellar careers. No future champions and many who disappointed. A very poor era for heavys. Compare to 74,75,76 its just insane.
A Very good question,but like another poster stated World War I has to be included.85 million deaths.Not only was boxing affected but science,the arts,education,the motivation and hope for a better life.I can see now why so many Europeans wanted to come to America after WW II. The birthplace of Western Civilization was badly wounded.The Soviet Union put the clamps on their people wanting to get out and restart.With the pandemic getting a hold on the world including the American people and psyche, I see a pattern of people falling into despair. I had a neighbor lady who lived downstairs who recently passed away. She grew up as a kid in Germany during WW II.She lived in Kiel.I asked her about the bombing.
"I hoped the bombs would fall on the neighbors' houses instead of ours,"she said without emotion.
Something like that is happening here in America and everywhere else.The pandemic is Europe's analogy to two world wars.The best way to find hope and faith is with the family and one's religion.But the scientists are saying not to have family gatherings nor attend religious services or we'll spread the disease and more will die.More and more it's becoming a world of zombies going through the motions alone waiting for big brother to tell us what we can and can't do.People need each other if there's to be civilization.That bond is being torn. I have two sisters that live less than mile from me.They won't leave their house and I can't come over.I haven't seen them face to face since March.
Japan felt the affects of course of WW II.But they had an interesting take of the results.In the Japanese movie "Hiroshima" Japanese youth blame the suffering that was inflicted on their country because their fanatical government started a world war in Asia and bombed Pearl Harbor. The atom bomb wouldn't have happened if Japan hadn't started a war.So how did Japan act after it was all said and done?I've asked many native born Japanese who lived then why after the peace was signed there was no backlash against American troops that occupied and governed the country for five years.I'll paraphrase the best possible.
"When we lost the war we Japanese believed we lost to a superior system.So instead of rebelling against it we adopted it and wanted to improve upon it."And they've turned out some pretty good fighters to boot.
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cfang wrote: ↑10 Dec 2020, 20:06
Check out the ring top ten heavys in 53 54 55. Many names on there who were old lt heavys or didnt have stellar careers. No future champions and many who disappointed. A very poor era for heavys. Compare to 74,75,76 its just insane.
GoGoldenState! wrote: ↑10 Dec 2020, 08:16
I have often wondered about how Joe Louis had so few fights against fellow black boxers early in his career? I know about the Jack Johnson backlash, and yes, he did defend against John Henry Lewis, but to the best of my knowledge, that was about it. Black fighters were prospering in other divisions; why not heavyweight? Dempsey had Harry Wills that he was accused of ducking. Why I wonder, did Louis not have a black boxer or two that he was accused of ducking. During the war, Jimmy Bivens, I believe, was known as the uncrowned champion. And he did fight black boxers (Charles and Walcott) after the war. I don't claim to be an expert on this era of boxing history, and I am curious to hear from someone who might know more than me. My Dad loved to talk about boxing history, and much of what I do know, I learned from him. I just regret I never posed the question about the lack of black heavyweights during Joe Louis' long title reign while he was still here to answer it.
There were some good black heavyweights. at the time. As you mentioned Bivins, Elmer Ray and Turkey Thompson (always loved the name) should have got title shots. There several other not as good as those three but as good as some of the white heavyweights who did get the title shots. For a long time, there was a notion that a fight with two blacks would not draw very well.
It was mainly Joe Louis's promoter Mike Jacobs that kept him away from the Black contenders
(LeRoy Haynes ,Eddie Blunt,and Tiger Jack Fox)up until
after the War anyway,and i'm not sure if Mike Jacobs was still even promoting him at that point.
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gilgamesh wrote: ↑10 Dec 2020, 12:10
It probably prolonged the reigns of both Joe Louis and Tony Zale both of whom served I believe. I know Louis did, pretty sure Zale did also.
The approach of World War 2 made Louis and Max Schmeling 2 what it was. Louis avenging his loss would've been a big deal anyway historically speaking, but when you add in the National Pride and the ramifications of all that, it meant so much more.
I would venture it might have kept Louis from compiling 45 or so straight defenses.
Caractacus wrote: ↑14 Dec 2020, 16:19
It was mainly Joe Louis's promoter Mike Jacobs that kept him away from the Black contenders
(LeRoy Haynes ,Eddie Blunt,and Tiger Jack Fox)up until
after the War anyway,and i'm not sure if Mike Jacobs was still even promoting him at that point.
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When exactly did Jacobs ever keep Louis away from Haynes, Blunt, and Fox?
There were a lot of good points about a lot of different issues in this thread. About 90% of what I thought of writing was already covered. I will add this much, which was briefly touched upon, but not in depth: The advent of TV definitely altered the landscape.
Obviously, television existed much earlier than WW2. However, I believe the spread of commercial TV was stunted by the war, at least in the U.S.
When television really got going here in the States, boxing and wrestling were popular programming with stations for a very technical reason. It was easy to simply point a camera at the ring.
If not for WW2, I suspect that the changes television wrought upon the sport would have been accelerated by a good four or five years.
