amateurs v pro

[brilo33]

are amateurs now starting to dominate over the pro fighters more than ever ,looking at the british fighters most have got an a olympic or commonwealth or wac back round now apart from fury , or has it always been this way , be interesting if any one knows the back round of the champs . bjs wac,callum smith commonwealth, aj olympic, luke campbell olympic joe joyce olympic much more

[mickey1975]

Fury was England international but turned over at 18.

[margaret thatcher]

well, it makes sense that most of the top pros wouldve been top ams too, though obviously there are exceptions, especially the lower down in weight you go

[mickey1975]

well, it makes sense that most of the top pros wouldve been top ams too, though obviously there are exceptions, especially the lower down in weight you go

I think the heavier lads usually have less amateur experience. They’re harder to match.

[margaret thatcher]

maybe, but you look at the most notable hws of past recent years and they've pretty much all been elite ams

holyfield, bowe, lewis, wlad k, josh, wilder, povetkin, bryd = all olympic medals


vitali and fury and haye =medals at the worlds

upcoming top prospects hrgovic, yoka, joyce (more of a contender) etc all olympic medalists


in the lowest classes you see more top guys who basically started boxing straight as pros

[mickey1975]

Some heavyweight lads get to England squads in 15 bouts. That’s impossible at lighter weights. Try matching Fury at 16 or Josh Taylor at 16. Light years difference.

[margaret thatcher]

oh sure, but i'm not talking about what weights have more fighters in them at the am level, nor by lowest weights do i mean 140 dudes

op is talking about accomplished ams now dominating the pros, clearly at hw the accomplished ams have been doing that for the most part, perhaps increasingly so. it's at the lowest weights where you see more of guys without much am background being at the top, where it's lots of asians and guys from the americas, often turning pro at like 17

[mickey1975]

You’d be surprised how many journeymen have good backgrounds, and how many unbeaten kids don’t. They’re very good at selling tickets though.

[Jimmy2020]

Always been that way. There are few exceptions and they are usually Central and South Americans who turn pro at 15 and do their learning in the pros. Loads of eggs thrown against the wall in that part of the world, hence why the ones that stick are so good.

[spudder56]

You’d be surprised how many journeymen have good backgrounds, and how many unbeaten kids don’t. They’re very good at selling tickets though.

Yeah the only ability you really need is the ability to sell tickets it’s sad but true

[Coco]

Years back as well you look at the Olympic medalists etc and most did well, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, Foreman, Ali.

Looking at the Brits too, Pat Cowdell and Colin Jones went to the Olympics

You can add many, many more to the list.

[Coco]

You’d be surprised how many journeymen have good backgrounds, and how many unbeaten kids don’t. They’re very good at selling tickets though.

The unbeaten kids aren't going anywhere though.

I remember sitting in many an away changing room and the conversations always were about our opponents.

You would always be more uneasy if someone said yeah he was a good amateur or yeah this kid can fight..

It was always a relief if someone was a ticket seller.

[mickey1975]

You’d be surprised how many journeymen have good backgrounds, and how many unbeaten kids don’t. They’re very good at selling tickets though.

The unbeaten kids aren't going anywhere though.

I remember sitting in many an away changing room and the conversations always were about our opponents.

You would always be more uneasy if someone said yeah he was a good amateur or yeah this kid can fight..

It was always a relief if someone was a ticket seller.

I know. A very good friend of mine was a good journeyman but always wanted to know if a kid could punch... wasn’t bothered about being jabbed all night. I’m also close to a ticket seller... I’ll leave it there.

[Coco]

The prospects always came out fast looking for an easy night but after slowing them down a bit and showing that you weren't going anywhere they were usually content to jab and move giving you an easy night..
If you maybe wobbled a bit to give them some encouragement, they would keep coming all night!

[THEBUTCH]

I would bristle sometimes when I heard that phrase "welcome to the pros". It takes me back to instances like when Lenny Daws turned over.

Watching Daws work his way through the early part of his pro career, I used to the think "welcome to fighting a top amateur" !

[SticknMove]

Always been that way. There are few exceptions and they are usually Central and South Americans who turn pro at 15 and do their learning in the pros. Loads of eggs thrown against the wall in that part of the world, hence why the ones that stick are so good.

Very true.

Battle hardened at a young age with so much depth. Only the toughest and savvy get through to challenge at any sort of World level let alone elite.

The pros and ams are 'almost' two different sports.

[mickey1975]

Always been that way. There are few exceptions and they are usually Central and South Americans who turn pro at 15 and do their learning in the pros. Loads of eggs thrown against the wall in that part of the world, hence why the ones that stick are so good.

Very true.

Battle hardened at a young age with so much depth. Only the toughest and savvy get through to challenge at any sort of World level let alone elite.

The pros and ams are 'almost' two different sports.

They’re not anymore. Since the headguards came off it’s exactly the same. Scoring and fighting styles have changed. At a reasonable level it’s 3x3’s.

[SticknMove]

Always been that way. There are few exceptions and they are usually Central and South Americans who turn pro at 15 and do their learning in the pros. Loads of eggs thrown against the wall in that part of the world, hence why the ones that stick are so good.

Very true.

Battle hardened at a young age with so much depth. Only the toughest and savvy get through to challenge at any sort of World level let alone elite.

The pros and ams are 'almost' two different sports.

They’re not anymore. Since the headguards came off it’s exactly the same. Scoring and fighting styles have changed. At a reasonable level it’s 3x3’s.

There were no headguards and there was 3x3s before it was discarded and reintroduced years later. The sport has changed for sure.... has developed young successful junior/senior ams with the lottery money that supports the tier system that produces medals. I'm all for it. Think it's great.

But never a forgone that they going to be as successful as pros. I am sure Bennie could rattle off many more names than I when it comes to the am/pro transition. I could rattle off a few talented, pre lottery funded, that would have benefitted from the amateur program that has produced so many medals since Big Aud. Whether they would have done more would be down to them.

[bennie]

In my time, Errol Christie must be the most famous domestic amateur who turned over and didn't make it, although I happen to believe his war with Mark Kaylor, after a run of pathetically easy wins, took everything out of him. Billy Knight was another head-scratcher, along with Andrew Straughn. Both won three ABA light-heavyweight titles and went to an Olympics but ultimately disappointed in the money ranks, although Straughn did at least win a British title. Knight openly regretted turning over.
George Collins and Jimmy Batten had brilliant schoolboy and junior careers but turned over young and failed to live up to their amateur billing. It didn't help Batten that he was thrown in with Gilbert Cohen for the European light-middleweight title just a couple of months after a gut-wrenching war with Tony Poole. Big Adrian Elliott won two ABA titles but bombed as a pro, even with Terry Lawless wrapping him in cotton wool. Big-hitting Scot Tom Imrie also won two ABA titles and gold at the 1970 Commonwealth Games in Edinburgh but didn't make it thereafter. Mark Ramsey won two ABA crowns and went the distance with Kostya Tszyu in the 1989 world championships but developed into a pro journeyman. Brixton's Tony Adams destroyed the great George Gilbody in 40 seconds in the ABAs but never caught on as a pro. Peter Jones, younger brother of Colin, destroyed Ray Gilbody in three rounds in the ABAs but boxed only a handful of times as a pro. Billy Walker famously flattened the giant American Cornelius Perry at Wembley in 1961 but never won a pro title, although he proved a phenomenal draw.
Battersea's Devon Bailey won five London ABA titles, including a win over Dennis Andries, but Andries knocked him out in 12 rounds in a British title rematch in 1984. Johnny Cheshire, Colin Derrick, Paul "Spider" Kelly and Dave Kenny were all brilliant amateurs who squandered their talent in the pros, although Kenny proved horribly cut-prone. Cameron Lithgow boxed 21 times for England and did zilch as a pro. Frankie Lucas won two ABA titles and licked Alan Minter in the unpaid ranks but never won anything as a pro. John Mugabi won destructive silver at the 1980 Olympics (losing to the brilliant Cuban Andres Aldama in the final) and should have achieved more as a pro. Michael Carruth won gold, of course, but really disappointed without the vest and needed to drop down a weight, in my opinion. Islington's Patrick "Blue Boy" Gallagher beat Billy Schwer to win the 1990 ABA lightweight title but fought the law too many times to make it as a pro...


P.S. Does anyone remember Al Styles? He was an American airman stationed over here in the late 1970s who claimed a decent amateur record and linked up with the Kingston club in London and looked brilliant in his contests. He was quickly selected to represent London against New York in 1978 and stopped David Sears, who later challenged Mike Spinks for the world light-heavyweight title. Then somebody tipped off the ABA. Styles was actually a quality pro who had been the full 10 rounds with Mike Rossman.

[Coco]

In my time, Errol Christie must be the most famous domestic amateur who turned over and didn't make it, although I happen to believe his war with Mark Kaylor, after a run of pathetically easy wins, took everything out of him. Billy Knight was another head-scratcher, along with Andrew Straughn. Both won three ABA light-heavyweight titles and went to an Olympics but ultimately disappointed in the money ranks, although Straughn did at least win a British title. Knight openly regretted turning over.
George Collins and Jimmy Batten had brilliant schoolboy and junior careers but turned over young and failed to live up to their amateur billing. It didn't help Batten that he was thrown in with Gilbert Cohen for the European light-middleweight title just a couple of months after a gut-wrenching war with Tony Poole. Big Adrian Elliott won two ABA titles but bombed as a pro, even with Terry Lawless wrapping him in cotton wool. Big-hitting Scot Tom Imrie also won two ABA titles and gold at the 1970 Commonwealth Games in Edinburgh but didn't make it thereafter. Mark Ramsey won two ABA crowns and went the distance with Kostya Tszyu in the 1989 world championships but developed into a pro journeyman. Brixton's Tony Adams destroyed the great George Gilbody in 40 seconds in the ABAs but never caught on as a pro. Peter Jones, younger brother of Colin, destroyed Ray Gilbody in three rounds in the ABAs but boxed only a handful of times as a pro. Billy Walker famously flattened the giant American Cornelius Perry at Wembley in 1961 but never won a pro title, although he proved a phenomenal draw.
Battersea's Devon Bailey won five London ABA titles, including a win over Dennis Andries, but Andries knocked him out in 12 rounds in a British title rematch in 1984. Johnny Cheshire, Colin Derrick, Paul "Spider" Kelly and Dave Kenny were all brilliant amateurs who squandered their talent in the pros, although Kenny proved horribly cut-prone. Cameron Lithgow boxed 21 times for England and did zilch as a pro. Frankie Lucas won two ABA titles and licked Alan Minter in the unpaid ranks but never won anything as a pro. John Mugabi won destructive silver at the 1980 Olympics (losing to the brilliant Cuban Andres Aldama in the final) and should have achieved more as a pro. Michael Carruth won gold, of course, but really disappointed without the vest and needed to drop down a weight, in my opinion. Islington's Patrick "Blue Boy" Gallagher beat Billy Schwer to win the 1990 ABA lightweight title but fought the law too many times to make it as a pro...


P.S. Does anyone remember Al Styles? He was an American airman stationed over here in the late 1970s who claimed a decent amateur record and linked up with the Kingston club in London and looked brilliant in his contests. He was quickly selected to represent London against New York in 1978 and stopped David Sears, who later challenged Mike Spinks for the world light-heavyweight title. Then somebody tipped off the ABA. Styles was actually a quality pro who had been the full 10 rounds with Mike Rossman.

I was told when Pat Gallagher and Richard Evatt were having a drink together there was always carnage!
I guess at Kingstom ABC Freddie Barr the ex Olympic coach was at the helm.
Frankie Lucas won Commonwealth gold yeah? He should have gone with England but because despite being ABA champ he was overlooked so managed to get selected for some obscure Caribbean island instead! Apparently he was a bit of a headcase.
Also Kenny Anderson, actually did pretty well against Groves in his step up, but I think legal problems stopped him progressing

[Jimmy2020]

In my time, Errol Christie must be the most famous domestic amateur who turned over and didn't make it....

Where are you cutting your time off, mate? Audley is by far the most famous domestic amateur ever who turned over and didn't make it.

[THEBUTCH]

Despite not living up to expectations, up until a point of his pro career I still thought Christie was a decent pro.

The obvious difference between Christie and Harrison was Audley did win some titles (European) and also challenged for a version of the world title. Errol packed the game in with nothing.

[danconnollyeire]

It’s not really anything new. Ali, Frazier, Foreman were all gold medalists. Mayweather, Jones Jr were Olympians too. On the other hand, Canelo wasn’t

[mickey1975]

It’s not really anything new. Ali, Frazier, Foreman were all gold medalists. Mayweather, Jones Jr were Olympians too. On the other hand, Canelo wasn’t

It’s hard when you’re 15. In

[SticknMove]

In my time, Errol Christie must be the most famous domestic amateur who turned over and didn't make it, although I happen to believe his war with Mark Kaylor, after a run of pathetically easy wins, took everything out of him. Billy Knight was another head-scratcher, along with Andrew Straughn. Both won three ABA light-heavyweight titles and went to an Olympics but ultimately disappointed in the money ranks, although Straughn did at least win a British title. Knight openly regretted turning over.
George Collins and Jimmy Batten had brilliant schoolboy and junior careers but turned over young and failed to live up to their amateur billing. It didn't help Batten that he was thrown in with Gilbert Cohen for the European light-middleweight title just a couple of months after a gut-wrenching war with Tony Poole. Big Adrian Elliott won two ABA titles but bombed as a pro, even with Terry Lawless wrapping him in cotton wool. Big-hitting Scot Tom Imrie also won two ABA titles and gold at the 1970 Commonwealth Games in Edinburgh but didn't make it thereafter. Mark Ramsey won two ABA crowns and went the distance with Kostya Tszyu in the 1989 world championships but developed into a pro journeyman. Brixton's Tony Adams destroyed the great George Gilbody in 40 seconds in the ABAs but never caught on as a pro. Peter Jones, younger brother of Colin, destroyed Ray Gilbody in three rounds in the ABAs but boxed only a handful of times as a pro. Billy Walker famously flattened the giant American Cornelius Perry at Wembley in 1961 but never won a pro title, although he proved a phenomenal draw.
Battersea's Devon Bailey won five London ABA titles, including a win over Dennis Andries, but Andries knocked him out in 12 rounds in a British title rematch in 1984. Johnny Cheshire, Colin Derrick, Paul "Spider" Kelly and Dave Kenny were all brilliant amateurs who squandered their talent in the pros, although Kenny proved horribly cut-prone. Cameron Lithgow boxed 21 times for England and did zilch as a pro. Frankie Lucas won two ABA titles and licked Alan Minter in the unpaid ranks but never won anything as a pro. John Mugabi won destructive silver at the 1980 Olympics (losing to the brilliant Cuban Andres Aldama in the final) and should have achieved more as a pro. Michael Carruth won gold, of course, but really disappointed without the vest and needed to drop down a weight, in my opinion. Islington's Patrick "Blue Boy" Gallagher beat Billy Schwer to win the 1990 ABA lightweight title but fought the law too many times to make it as a pro...


P.S. Does anyone remember Al Styles? He was an American airman stationed over here in the late 1970s who claimed a decent amateur record and linked up with the Kingston club in London and looked brilliant in his contests. He was quickly selected to represent London against New York in 1978 and stopped David Sears, who later challenged Mike Spinks for the world light-heavyweight title. Then somebody tipped off the ABA. Styles was actually a quality pro who had been the full 10 rounds with Mike Rossman.

I was told when Pat Gallagher and Richard Evatt were having a drink together there was always carnage!
I guess at Kingstom ABC Freddie Barr the ex Olympic coach was at the helm.
Frankie Lucas won Commonwealth gold yeah? He should have gone with England but because despite being ABA champ he was overlooked so managed to get selected for some obscure Caribbean island instead! Apparently he was a bit of a headcase.
Also Kenny Anderson, actually did pretty well against Groves in his step up, but I think legal problems stopped him progressing

Freddie Barr.....what a character. No idea where his connection with Galllagher and Evatt was but I bet he would not dissuade their inclinations. He was a coach on a few London outings I boxed on.