Classic American West Coast Boxing

[dagosd2000]

Mean Street Is A Dead End

Sooner of later it'll catch up with them.Maybe right now they think they can still act that way.Be the tough guy.Intimidate at the drop of a hat. Maybe it's an an act or that's how really they feel inside. But the time will come for whatever reason that they won't have that urge to act that way anymore. With fighters I see it more now than when I was a kid. If there were those mad doggers around I didn't take notice.

For me it started with Sonny Liston. He had a lot fighters whipped before the fight started. Floyd Patterson would deny it,but Floyd was only fooling himself.Now what fighter would bring a disguise to a fight so he wouldn't be recognized after the fight was over?For the second fight with Liston Patterson brought a mask in a paper bag to the arena.I never knew if Floyd put it on after Liston punched him like a paper bag.

Liston's style was the hard look,the few words underhis breath,the no smile in public.He complemented that with his bulk-a black Rondo Hatten face,massive hands,shoulders and arms that were offspring to a Grizzly Bear.In fact the scared Cassius Clay called the misnomered Sonny the "Bear."But in the first fight Liston realized he couldn't knock down the too fast Cassius with his blows and he certainly wasn't going to drop him with his snarl.As the fight wore on Liston physically, and more evidently between the ears, unraveled.When the bully knew in his heart that that organ wasn't as big as he let on he didn't come out for the next round.But he couldn't let go of that persona.It was his shoulder that betrayed him not his heart.Inside a school gym in Maine ,after around 30 seconds of chasing the now Ali around the ring ,Sonny was just waiting to get tapped so he could fall into the abyss that all along he had been digging for himself.Floyd Patterson had tarnished the division because he wouldn't fight the best.Liston added more oxidation by chickening out twice against a fighter that worked through his fear and conquered it.

Roberto Duran was up next as the guy who wanted to kick sand in everybody's face.He wanted to not only destroy his opponents but even his victim's wife when she leaped into the ring to tend to her hubby,
He hit her after the bell so to speak..Even Ray Leonard's better half was threatened by Hands Of Stone that after he did away with her husband that they should both look for matching plots at the cemetery.

Mike Tyson is another one of the bullies who, I suppose if he read this piece, would break down my door and call me a piece of s--t faggot and want to kick my ass.

But like I said at the top-one way or another it will all come to a cease.For Liston,even after he tasted his own blood after Leotis Martin countered over bloody Sonny's lazy left jab,still couldn't humble himself.But by that time an uninterested public and a hypodermic needle put Liston at rest.

For Duran he'll never hide ,even in his native Panama, from what happened in New Orleans.He can't make that experience go away "No Mas."But to his credit he's learned to deal with it.His hardening of the arteries have softened his take on life.There's a smile instead of a growl and a wife that stuck with him.Ole!



Probably the biggest transformation of bully to benevolence in a fighter was George Foreman.A Liston clone,again it was Ali who made the world see ,and more importantly Big George himself,that sooner or later that being the bully is a cover for something just as fragile in the psyche.Today, George Foreman is one of the most affable people on the planet.He thanks Ali of all people for saving him from putting a gun to his head.I saw Big George one time in a retail store parking lot hawking his George Foreman barbeques.He was so captivating I bought two!

So who's left?Tyson. He's still pushing people around. I started reading his latest book.But I put it in the Goodwill box after reading the first paragraph. How he talked about before going to jail he looked up all his girlfriends in his little black book and had a tumble with all of them before going to the slammer.Maybe I should have gone on.But i was listening to some of his comments before this thing with Jones.He still thinks he has to be this tough guy.Maybe that's what his lap dogs want to hear ,but sooner or later... You can go to Youtube and click on to see various situations where he's being interviewed and then if the asker asks the wrong question or alludes to his perceptions as standing on shaky ground then Mike wants to kick his ass not before calling him a faggot.

For his sake I hope he turns it around.If nothing else Father Time will give him a beating.



Roberto Duran

[dagosd2000]

A Guy Who Wouldn't Hit Back

I had the occasion twice having something to do with Eddie Futch.The first time was when I filled in as a last second sparring partener for Ken Norton.A friend of mine(?)who was was supposed to spar with Norton backed out at the last minute saying his shoulder was giving him pain.I has sparred with my friend before that and he did pull up his left hand once in awhile complaining that his arm hurt when he threw a punch.But that never made him step out of the ring when he was working me over.He was a pretty good amateur heavyweight at that the time sporting a 12 and 0 record.However,at the time Norton had only several pro fights under his belt and wasn't even considered more or less than a beginner with a good future ahead of him.So my friend volunteered me to be his replacement. This took place at the San Diego Coliseum.

It caught me off guard to say the least,but I couldn't back down.They found the biggest head gear in the gym and put it on my noggin'.I've run the experience by you guys a dozen times in a dozen different ways so he comes number 13.I'll cut to the chase about what transpired.Before I could say "My arm hurts too.",Norton brought up that left he kept down low and planted it on my nose giving it an S turn.Now here comes my first encounter with Eddie Futch.Before Norton could extinguish my deer in the headlights look,Futch was in the ring with a towel to stop my bleeding and said,"That's enough."Thank God.

Norton ,when hearing that I would be the lamb led to the slaughter, I could see was already salivating. After he busted my nose I could tell he was a little pissed off.It was like "Hey,I need the work and you bring in this guy."I could also sense that Eddie Futch was a little exasperated but he didn't say anything.

There wasn't much in San Diego to offer a prospect like Norton a good sparring session.Futch would bring Norton to Los Angeles so he could hone his kills with the future heavyweight champ,and also one of Eddie's charges,Joe Frazier.I'd hear Futch say that the better Norton got the more he'd let him work with Frazier.Now for my second experiernce with Futch that wasn't like the towel on my nose the first time.It was when Muhammad Ali came to San Diego to give "Ken Fartin'"a beating.

Eddie Futch was the trainer of the two fighters that beat Ali before Leon Spinks did the job again later.Joe Frazier had decisively beat Ali in The Fight Of The Century.And now he had Norton ready to copy the feat.But Joe's style and Kenny's style were very different.Joe was shorter than Kenny.Joe was taught by Futch,not Yank Durham,to come in low and bob and weave and keep the pressure on.Before that change Frazier was more of a stand up guy when he moved in without much head movement.It almost cost him his first loss against Oscar Bonavena In The Garden.Futch wasn't in Joe's corner then.Yank Durham put him charge of training Frazier after and it was Futch who developed Frazier's smokin' attack.

Ken Norton was tall at 6 foot 3 and didn't have the kinetic energy that Joe displayed.When Ali arrived in San Diego he trained before Norton at he gym they had set up in the Town And Country Hotel banquet room.Admission was free and everyday there were standing room only crowds to watch The Greatest.But like I've mentioned before most of his work was with his mouth talking to the gallery holding a microphone and letting his sparring partners bang away on him.Angelo Dundee never squawked.

After The Muhammad Ali Show would close for the afternoon the crowd would clear out to make room for Norton,his sparring partner "Bossman" Jones,and EddieFutch.Even though San Diego was his hometown he didn't have much of a fan base.Me and the janitor would watch the sessions and you could hear the sound of Norton striking the heavy bag clear across the parking lot because the room was so empty.Him and "Bossman" went at it like two tigers,but then Futch would slow things down and bring both fighters together.Jones would lean against the ropes,I guess,emulating Ali's posture of fighting by then,and then things would proceed.I never knew the gist of what Futch was telling Norton until after the fight when Futch explained how he had Norton execute the game plan.It was two pronged.One:Futch told Norton to jab back with Ali when he threw his jab.Then Ali would have to reset and couldn't build momentum.Two:When Ali would pull back from a punch on theropes don't try to follow with anything to the head.Work both hands to the body to bring his guard and head down and NOW throw the right hand upstairs.That's how Kenny broke his jaw.

After the win Norton showed a lot of ingratitude.He was seeing a hypnotist in town that was supposed to give him confidence, but after the fight he kicked the guy to the curb.Then there was the fallout with Eddie Futch.Futch never revealed what happened.All he would say was that there is thanklessness in the sport. He never dissed Norton to the press.When Norton would say things like Futch didn't have any part in his development ,Futch would just not to partake in the rhubarb,at least not in public.People that knew Eddie Futch said that he had too much class to get into a pissin' contest.That must have took a lot restraint because Futch could have emptied his bladder on Ken Norton,but that wouldn't have shown any class.

Eddie Futch

[dagosd2000]

The Quiet Man

Getting back to Eddie Futch for a moment. The few times I saw him working with Ken Norton i was impressed by the way he was always instructing his fighter.I didn't catch everything but it seemed to me that Futch had studied Ali(for example)and then worked out a game plan for Norton to beat him.I went into the technicalities of that yesterday.After Nortion battered him around the ring Futch described how after studying film of Ali he took advantage of his flaws.All fighters have strengths and weaknesses.But you have to be smart to correctly exploit those weaknesses.

To me Futch wasn't a screamer or a berater.He wasn't a rah rah guy.I never heard him cuss.In fact he spoke calmly and very articulately.He chose his words carefully to the degree that you were impressed.Ken Norton sure was.

I think the first thing Futch had to instill in Norton was not that physical strategy but to build up his confidence.And he accompllshed that very smoothly. It wasn't like Norton was going against this mythical hero and that he was only a little ol' fledgling.Futch didn't berate Ali or try to play him down.But he approached it with Norton that he was going to fight this guy and if you listen to me and do as you're instructed you will win the fight. And Kenny did just that.He was never in awe of Ali.Nor intimidated.Or more importantly fall for any of the ruses.In all three fights he had with Ali, Norton saw him as an opponent not a god. That attitude remained with Norton even after him and Futch split ways.

I often think if Norton would have had Futch with him in Venezuela when he fought Foreman things might have been different. Bill Slayton was a good trainer but he lacked the mental insights that are just as important to get a fighter ready. He wasn't as astute as Eddie FutchBut .not many were.


Muhammad Ali

[dagosd2000]

Balls

Most fighters I've known ,prior to them becoming professional types,got in a lot of what you'd call street fights.Now I'm going way back with this.I'm not talking about how kids fight today with knives and guns and ten guys that jump in and make sure the other guy hasn't a prayer. Or the loser, instead of winding up with a black eye and some loose teeth, they cart him off to the morgue.Today, I wouldn't even call it fighting.Today ,fighting falls into one of the murder categories-1st,2nd,3rd degree.No.I'm talking back in a day when the street fight was one on one.And even if you or the other guy was with his pals they didn't jump in to uneven the odds. It wasn't chicken s--t like it is today.

It always gets me when you see these documentaries on the Public Broadcast Channels that glorify the gangs on the street and how, because of their upbringings and environments, have become victims of society.They'll talk to a gang member and he'll relate how if you want to be in the gang you need to be initiated by being "jumped in."In other words the "prospect" stands in the middle of around ten guys who then proceed to laughingly kick the s--t out of this wannabe. Now that that's over the wannabe is a gonnabe and when the next guy asks to be in the gang he can jump in now and act the tough guy.BTW.The girl gangs copy their male counterparts.Whoever said chivalry is dead was on to something.

Well when I was growing up there were no gangs,at least not on the more atrocious scale like there is today. When I see that movie"The Wild One" starring Marlon Brando I always get a good laugh.It's about as cornball as a vat full of pone in the Ozarks.If you watch that movie Brando's sidekick motorcycle gang members(I hope you're familiar with actors)areJerry Paris,Alvy Moore,and Gil stratton-3 of the most non threatening types you'd ever want to be in your gang.I wonder who casted these guys,Mary Poppins?I like the scene where they're jumping around the street on pogo sticks.Strikes the fear of God in ya'.

But as lame as that movie was guys in real life were tougher back then.If there was a fight it was one on one with no weapons or your pals jumpin' in.10 against 1 you don't have to be tough,just chicken s--t.So where does this lead to?Ok.When I was bumming around the boxing gyms in San Diego there was a gym at the 32nd Street Navy Base.This was before Vietnam heated up and they'd let in if you told the MP at the gate you were going to the gym and workout with the swabbies.

There was one old timer inside the gym who would always approach me on wanting me to become a fighter.He looked like a character in one of the Rocky movies.He had an ex fighter's face with the mashed nose,the old scar tissue around the eyes ,and the peppered gray hair.He was Mexican with that swarthy complexion and soft looking skin tone.Most of his teeth were gone but that didn't keep him from smiling as often as he could.When standing he'd bend a little to talk to you.They said his hearing was very good.Looking at his hands you could see the gnarls and bumps from all the pounding he did with them. He wore the same frayed white T-shirt,khaki pants, and scuffed up boxing shoes every day.I don't think he had any specific purpose inside that gym other than just to be around somewhere familiar.But every time I saw him he'd feed me the same line.Everyone in the gym called him Cuco.
"You know you're a pretty good fighter,"he'd say in his gargly voice."You know you could beat 70 percent of the heavyweights out there today.You ought to let me handle you."
"No.I just like to spar once in awhile and watch."
"I've seen you spar.You could beat 70 percent of the heavyweights out there."
"Well,at one time I gave it some thought but quite honestly I don't have what it takes to be a fighter.It's a lot of sacrifice."
The old guy paused a second like to come up with something different.
"Have you been in a lot of street fights?"he asked.
"I've had the usual share."
"You know I was in a lot of street fights when I was young,"he said."Street fights are more dangerous than boxing in the ring."
"How's that?"
"Well,in a street fight you never know what's going to happen.You can't prepare ahead of time.There's no rules.No referee.You don't know if the other guy is crazy.With boxing there are rules.It's a lot harder to box in the ring because you have to train hard and be in condition and learn how to box but for me it's not as scary."
"I see what you're getting at."
"You know when I'd get myself into a streetfight my balls would go up inside my body.Literally go up inside my body.It was like nature's way of keeping them from getting hurt.When I fought in the ring that never happened to me."
"I can't recall that ever happening to me.My balls going up inside me in a street fight,"I said quizzically.
"Well,the next time you're in a fight in the street keep that in mind."
"I sure will,"I said tongue in cheek.
"What do you think then of letting me be your manager?"
"i'll think it over."

[dagosd2000]

The Way It Was Unfortunately

I saw again that clip from YouTube with Tony Zale and Rocky Graziano on that show "The Way It Was" with Curt Gowdy moderating. It was broadcast in 1977. I saw that it was posted in response to someone saying that he thought Zale was overrated .Calling Zale "overrated" might seem glib but I believe there is some truth with that assessment.They all talk about the three fight series Tony had with Rocky Graziano and that appears to be the reasoning behind the opinion that Zale(and Graziano)were Hall Of Fame material.Too bad the only film of the trilogy is the last fight and that was the worst of the three albeit it was explosive at least on Tony's end.But getting back to whether Zale was hyped to hyperbole.I'll put it this way.:he never fought a fighter in that black peer group comprised of Holman Williams,Lloyd Marshall,Jimmy Bivins,Eddie Booker,Ezzard Charles,Archie Moore,and Charley Burley.There's the sore spot. And what gets me sore is both Graziano and Zale say at the end of the show that "today's" fighters(remember the show was broadcast in 1977)couldn't carry their spit buckets.Hold on a minute you two.Give or take 5 years with 1977 as a focal point you're saying that fighters like Carlos Monzon,Jose Napoles,Luis Rodriguez,Emile Griffith,Ray Leonard,Roberto Duran,Tommy Hearns, Marvin Hagler,and you can reach up to Bob Foster and make a case-guys that were more or less at your fighting weights- if you put them in a time machine and sent them back to say the 1940's both you smug bastards could have kicked their asses when you ducked all the aforementioned black fighters I named?Both you guys had a lot of nerve. All those Black Murderer Row fighters would have brushed you aside and then what?They'd be fighting one another for the championships.

You can blame a lot of that on Mike Jacobs.Uncle Mike was the combo matchmaker/spin doctor for Madison Square Garden and the other big back east venues.He allowed Joe Louis in the door,but the attraction was that he'd be fighting white fighters.Ray Robinson was the other black fighter who got a pass and he was P4P the best.But that was it.If he'd put let's say Charley Burley fighting Archie Moore for the middleweight title the gate would suffer. The fans who could afford to shell out money to watch a fight were 99 percent white.They didn't want to see two black guys in there no matter how brilliant they were with their gloves.




After the war things began to change.There were fewer good white fighters around. By the time Clay captured audiences the best heavyweights were practically all black.Between the baby boomers and the social change occurring in the 60's we wanted to see Ali and Frazier,not Ali and Bonavena for all the marbles though Ali did fight everyone regardless of skin tone.But black or white or any other color doesn't matter anymore.

Before I forget .When Graziano tried to get back on his feet after getting blitzed in his last fight with Zale,he wanted to get considered for another title shot if he got by "Sugar" Ray Robinson. Graziano's attack was crude and obvious:hold the other guy by the throat with the left hand and start unloading the right.Well,he caught Robby with his right and dropped him to the mat.But Robinson did an ala Jack Johnson against Ketchel and sprung up and uncorked a right of his own that sent Graziano's mouthpiece into the East River.When they talk about the "perfect" left hook they bring up Robison's left against Gene Fullmer's chin in their second fight. You can nominate the "perfect" right as the one that landed on Graziano's jaw by Robinson after Graziano gave him a surprise.

Can you imagine what Graziano and Zale's legacies would have been if they had been fed a diet of Archie Moores and Charley Burleys?They wouldn't have been sitting next to Curt Gowdy and talking out their asses.Or at least they'd have to say all the names of those black fighters that gave them a wuppin'.

Rocky Graziano

I thought I'd rerun that "The Way It Was" show with Zale and Graziano. There wasn't anything said from those two about how "today's" fighters wouldn't stack up against the guys from their era.Then I remembered,it was the same show with Gowdy moderating, but it was Graziano sitting next to "Sugar" Ray Robinson.The talk centered on Robinson and their fight when Graziano was trying to come back after losing to Zale the final time. That's when Graziano started talking about the guys "today" are bums and so forth. Robinson sort of smiled but then as great as he was he didn't have much to do with the black Murder Murderers Row group(I wouldn't put Henry Armstrong in that group.He'd been the champ.Other than him the only significant black fighter he fought before 1950 was Kid Gavilan and he was a Cuban so that didn't make him that black). Again,Mike Jacobs and George Gainsford knew the money to be made was Robby against whitey in the big fights.Robinson knew it too.He certainly wasn't an advocate of social justice and inequality unless it had to do with him.


Ray Robinson

[dagosd2000]

On Their Own

I never heard Archie Moore talk about who his trainer was or who taught him how to box or who worked in his corner. I knew Doc Kearns finished up with him in the end but that was for mainly managerial purposes.Moore finally was the champ by then.it was the decade of the 50's and things were opening up for black fighters.Doc Kearns certainly didn't teach Archie Moore how to fight. The notable trainers didn't want to train black fighters before the war.Being a fight trainer was hard enough to make a living at so to hook up with a black fighter was a road to nowhere. The legendary trainers:Charley Goldman,Ray Arcel,Whitey Bimstein,Al Silvani,early Angelo Dundee.They handled white good fighters.

When John Roxborough had Joe Louis under wraps he called on Jack Blackburn to work with Joe. It was a marriage made in heaven. Roxborough knew that Blackburn would be the combination father figure and disciplinarian that could mold Louis into the best heavyweight of his era.Roxborough would do the wheeling and dealing on the side with Mike Jacobs ,but it would be Blackburn who would make Joe Louis a fighter.Without Blackburn, Joe Louis wouldn't have been Joe Louis.Blackburn asked the veteran trainer Manny Seamon to assist him with Louis' development. ,Later,when Blackburn knew at the end that he wasn't going to last much longer he asked Seamon if he'd take over.Of course Blackburn let Louis in on the plan.Joe had no gripes with Seamon and respected the man.So for the first time you had a big name white trainer working with a big name black fighter.After the war things began to change.There were fewer good white fighters and more and more good black fighters.The younger fans didn't care if it was black on black in the ring.They wanted to see the best.The revenues started rolling in.

But thinking back before the war and all those good black fighters(and the average run of the mill) that had their contracts shuffled around from one scammer to another and had to learn to fight on their own by drawing on their past ring experiences, must have been known that it was a dead end street.The guys working their corners were there to water them down and wipe the sweat off their faces with a towel that's all.Whoever were controlling the purse strings wouldn't hire a cut man.These fighters were lied to,cheated them out of their earnings, promised big fights and big money, and then told they'd have to go into the tank once in awhile for things gel. What could they do if they didn't want to play ball?They'd have to go looking for work.A black man looking for work during the depression was more like looking to be a sharecropper.So they played ball.The war put all sports,including fighting,on the back burner so a black man could go into the service and more than likely be a mess boy, or if he wanted to get ahead he might wind up being a MP in a black unit.

Getting back to yesterday and guys like Zale and Graziano on those sports shows being interviewed putting on their acts talking tough like they're in a Scorsese movie. Big deal. When guys like Charley Burley and Holman Williams should have been sitting with Curt Gowdy talking about how they got screwed. How they should have been fighting the likes of Graziano and Zale for championships and making money instead of fighting each other for chump change.

Joe Louis and Ray Robinson were what those other black fighters aspired to be but the stars weren't in their alignment. After the war Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore finally climbed out of it.So did Jersey Joe. But they all paid the price. But I never heard any sour grapes from those guys.Hell,they all earned their ways becoming champs. But I never heard Archie Moore give any credit to anyone ever for being a fighter.That was because there wasn't anyone.


Charley Burley

[goose 5]

The whole debate about Robinson fighting black fighters is one of my favorite topics to debate. Robinson did beat California Jackie Wilson-in 1943- who was held in very high regard and was coming off a win over the Cocoa Kid-another guy Sugar Ray avoided. In fact, in late 1942, The Ring magazine issued Robinson a reprimand for his failure to fight Wilson or The Cocoa Kid. Also, Tommy Bell and George Costner were terrific black fighters, but certainly not on a par with Burley or Holman Williams.

Before signing Robinson and Wilson to fight, MSG consulted with a leading boxing writer as to whether or not to have 2 black men fight each other in the main event.

[dagosd2000]

The whole debate about Robinson fighting black fighters is one of my favorite topics to debate. Robinson did beat California Jackie Wilson-in 1943- who was held in very high regard and was coming off a win over the Cocoa Kid-another guy Sugar Ray avoided. In fact, in late 1942, The Ring magazine issued Robinson a reprimand for his failure to fight Wilson or The Cocoa Kid. Also, Tommy Bell and George Costner were terrific black fighters, but certainly not on a par with Burley or Holman Williams.

Before signing Robinson and Wilson to fight, MSG consulted with a leading boxing writer as to whether or not to have 2 black men fight each other in the main event.

Nice post Goose

[dagosd2000]

Wrong Place At The Right Time

I know I'm in the wrong place for this but I just want to get on my soapbox.I just watched the replay of Canelo and Callum Smith workout.I'd never seen Smith fight before and after watching the YouTube(thank God for YouTube)"Highlights" I can still say I've never seen Smith fight. He looked standing in center ring like a light heavyweight compared to Canelo.He had 6 inches of height and 8 inches of reach on the Mexican. Ok.So did Tommy Hearns have similar measurements against Hagler.But at least Tommy let it all hang out!You gonna' tell me that was Smith's fight plan?-back up and paw with the jab?Back up and throw a sissy right hand? You don't have to be a rocket scientist or an Eddie Futch to know that the taller guy he has to keep the shorter guy at the end of a STIFF jab and then follow with the right hand and combinations to the head and the body.Then move away or tie him up or shove him back.But in order to do that you have to have the will to do it.Smith looked like he didn't have that will,and that's putting it nicely. His gear was in reverse and that told Canelo right off that this guy was just looking to survive.

When I went to YouTube the caption was "Highlights".If those were the high moments what the hell did the low moments look like? Going into the 12th round ,Smith knowing he was WAY behind,was on the retreat again.I wonder what his corner was saying?To have paid 69.95 for this was a rip off. That's what Smith end should have been after last night-69.95.

I read this Kevin Iole's column this morning.Now Canelo has assured his spot as the best fighter out there so says Kev.Triple G just got done pitching a shutout against one of those east European fighters that has all consonants in his name and I guess this is what now everyone wants next-the 3rd fight.

They've got things revving up already. Canelo is the greatest Mexican fighter of all time so says Kev and Canelo ain't putting up no argumentJ.C. Sr. take a back seat.But I remember when they said that about Olivares.And then it was Zarate.And then along came Chavez. Take my advice Canelo-quit now while you're ahead and they'll say that you were the best Mexican fighter ever.You've got plenty of dough.You're still in the prime of your manhood.And most importantly you've still got your senses.But if you don't listen to me then the day will come when you'll run into a Chucho Castillo or a Wilfredo Gomez or a Frankie Randall. It happens to all of the "greatest" Mexican fighters.

Whew.Now I'll get off my soapbox and go to the medicine cabinet to see there's anymore Valium left.


Canelo Alvarez.The greatest Mexican fighter ever.At least for the time being.

[dagosd2000]

No Time To Think

When I first heard him say it I didn't give it much thought.I thought he was joking but the more I think about what he said it rang true.Ronnie Wilson and Denny Moyer had just got finished sparring a couple of rounds at the Coliseum when while they were pulling off their gloves Moyer laughs at Wilson and says"I know I must be getting old because now I have to think what I'm going to do in the ring."
Ronnie laughed back a him and then they went back to the locker room and got dressed. When they came out they were discussing where they were going to get a bite to eat and then after that what watering hole was going to get their business.I'd think after all that working out they'd be counteracting all that sweat and effort with their carousing around. But those two were inseparable by that time. But getting back to Moyer's comment.

As time went by I heard other fighters allude to the fact that if they had to think about what they were going to do during a fight instead of just reacting they were losing a step.For instance if they thought about countering by the time they tried it something else would come up and they'd have to think again about what to do. It was like playing "catch up"and never getting caught up.

I think that's what happened to Rocky DeFazio when Moyer was brought to Chicago to be a set up guy for the young undefeated fighter from Chi Town.Moyer showed him all the tricks he'd learned over the course of his long career and had DeFazio fooled.But it wasn't a matter of advancing age that kept DeFazio from pulling the trigger.It was his lack of experience with a veteran fighter like Moyer who had been in the ring with the best.

I saw the same with a young Armando Muniz when he fought the boxing sage Emile Griffith at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles. You could see that Griffith had Muniz all tied up. Mando was confused.He didn't know what was coming because he couldn't see it coming.He was guessing.He was thinking instead of reacting instinctively.You could see him want to do start something but then Griffith would move and Mando would have to stop and begin over.It was like a fighter dragging his back foot.

Angelo Dundee said that when he saw Joe Louis fight Marcaino that Joe wanted to start the combination but the reflexes were gone.A fighter who "thinks" is a good fighter but when that thinking is because his reflexes aren't in control then that thinking about what to do next is a strain on the brain.

Sometimes that wane appears in one fight.An old fighter gets in there and he just doesn't have it anymore. Maybe he chalks it up to an off night so he gets in there the next time and it's worse.That's the time to hang up the gloves. Marv Jensen said that to his fighter Gene Fullmer. After Dick Tiger gave him a second thrashing(the 2nd fight of the 3 was a gift draw)Jensen convinced Fullmer that he was finished as a top echelon fighter. Just before his first fight with Tiger, Fullmer looked indestructible against Benny Paret.But Fullmer was getting beaten to the punch by Tiger.That's another way of putting it:thinking instead of reacting.

But anyway you put it if a fighter is beginning to get the crap kicked out him it's time for him to THINK about finding something softer to do to make a living.


Emile Griffith

[scartissue]

No Time To Think

When I first heard him say it I didn't give it much thought.I thought he was joking but the more I think about what he said it rang true.Ronnie Wilson and Denny Moyer had just got finished sparring a couple of rounds at the Coliseum when while they were pulling off their gloves Moyer laughs at Wilson and says"I know I must be getting old because now I have to think what I'm going to do in the ring."
Ronnie laughed back a him and then they went back to the locker room and got dressed. When they came out they were discussing where they were going to get a bite to eat and then after that what watering hole was going to get their business.I'd think after all that working out they'd be counteracting all that sweat and effort with their carousing around. But those two were inseparable by that time. But getting back to Moyer's comment.

As time went by I heard other fighters allude to the fact that if they had to think about what they were going to do during a fight instead of just reacting they were losing a step.For instance if they thought about countering by the time they tried it something else would come up and they'd have to think again about what to do. It was like playing "catch up"and never getting caught up.

I think that's what happened to Rocky DeFazio when Moyer was brought to Chicago to be a set up guy for the young undefeated fighter from Chi Town.Moyer showed him all the tricks he'd learned over the course of his long career and had DeFazio fooled.But it wasn't a matter of advancing age that kept DeFazio from pulling the trigger.It was his lack of experience with a veteran fighter like Moyer who had been in the ring with the best.

I saw the same with a young Armando Muniz when he fought the boxing sage Emile Griffith at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles. You could see that Griffith had Muniz all tied up. Mando was confused.He didn't know what was coming because he couldn't see it coming.He was guessing.He was thinking instead of reacting instinctively.You could see him want to do start something but then Griffith would move and Mando would have to stop and begin over.It was like a fighter dragging his back foot.

Angelo Dundee said that when he saw Joe Louis fight Marcaino that Joe wanted to start the combination but the reflexes were gone.A fighter who "thinks" is a good fighter but when that thinking is because his reflexes aren't in control then that thinking about what to do next is a strain on the brain.

Sometimes that wane appears in one fight.An old fighter gets in there and he just doesn't have it anymore. Maybe he chalks it up to an off night so he gets in there the next time and it's worse.That's the time to hang up the gloves. Marv Jensen said that to his fighter Gene Fullmer. After Dick Tiger gave him a second thrashing(the 2nd fight of the 3 was a gift draw)Jensen convinced Fullmer that he was finished as a top echelon fighter. Just before his first fight with Tiger, Fullmer looked indestructible against Benny Paret.But Fullmer was getting beaten to the punch by Tiger.That's another way of putting it:thinking instead of reacting.

But anyway you put it if a fighter is beginning to get the crap kicked out him it's time for him to THINK about finding something softer to do to make a living.


Emile Griffith

Rog, I once asked Tony Zale about his fight with Marcel Cerdan and did he feel it ebbing in training. He said his training went great and the night before the fight he was going through last minute warm-ups in his kitchen. Just shadow-boxing, bobbing and such. And he said everything was firing perfectly. The next morning - the day of the fight - he said he was clumsy, slow and nothing was working. He said it was gone. Quite literally, he got old overnight.

[dagosd2000]

Rog, I once asked Tony Zale about his fight with Marcel Cerdan and did he feel it ebbing in training. He said his training went great and the night before the fight he was going through last minute warm-ups in his kitchen. Just shadow-boxing, bobbing and such. And he said everything was firing perfectly. The next morning - the day of the fight - he said he was clumsy, slow and nothing was working. He said it was gone. Quite literally, he got old overnight.
[/quote]

Hey Dan,remember Rick Farris telling us about Andy Heilman not coming out of his corner for the 7th round against Ronnie Wilson?He was going good and was ahead.Heilman just decided he'd had enough of fighting.It was the last time he put on the gloves

[dagosd2000]

Having Missed Something

When Enrique posted about the passing of Frankie Otero it stirred me to pick up his book on Cuban Boxing,"Hard Leather",to read more about Otero. I then went on line to read his obituary in the Miami Herald and what his son said about his father.I've seen a lot of fighters and known a few and the world is full of people,but after reading about the passing of Frankie Otero I feel I missed out on something. Sounds kind of dumb to say that knowing that you can't know everyone, but that's how I feel right now.If there ever was a metaphor for the word "bittersweet" it was my reading about Frankie Otero.

[dagosd2000]

Making Weight

John Scully is right about when a fighter weighs in the day before the fight and balances the bar and then puts on 8 or 9 pounds overnight by the time he climbs into the ring that that fighter probably had a difficult time making weight the day prior at the weigh in.

Because of weight categories boxing is a lot harder than than let's say football.For example an offensive tackle weighing 300 pounds can line up opposite a defensive tackle weighing 280 pounds.That doesn't necessarily give the heavier guy the advantage but then again their are no weight categories in football.No football player has to weigh in before a game.Although in training camp I've seen players being weighed daily because their coaches are trying to make them shed unwanted pounds that hamper their performance.I've also been with football players the night before the game and spent time bending elbows with them at some night club.They'd wake up with s hangover the next day but could get them selves together enough that no one knew the difference.Mando Ramos ,the night before he defended his title against Chango Carmona,was sleeping off a night on the town in the LA drunk tank.We all know how Mando performed in the ring the next night against Carmona. He was pummeled and lost his crown in the process.

It's still the same in boxing.If you go into that ring and you're not 100 percent right bad things are gonna happen.There's no room for any half ass approach when it comes to training.Burning the candle at both ends will lead to an eventual burnout.When Roberto Duran had to get ready to fight "Sugar" Ray Leonard for the second time he had to take off more than 30 pounds and a lot of that weight was fried food and liquor. Freddie Brown,who was with Duran from just about the beginning,said he had to go through that routine of getting Duran down to "weight" six times throughout his time spent with him.The "No Mas" fight was the last time Brown was in his corner.The strain of Duran making the welterweight limit took as much out of him mentally as physically. He knew that he was wasn't strong between the ears that night.His body was all right but he knew it was a rat race to get those pounds off and thus his "Eye Of The Tiger" focused on being the
Eye Of The Basset Hound."

Weight training has probably been the biggest factor in making an athlete perform at a greater level. For instance in wrestling(not the Hollywood type)a wrestler ,back before every school had a weight room,would be overwhelmed today by a guy at the same weight because that guy is a lot stronger.The skills levels are the same for both eras but the difference is in the strength.When wrestlers lock up strength is an important factor.Weight lifting and boxing still don't mix.If anything too much weight training is a detriment-ties a man up,makes him slow in the legs and curtails hand speed.Who in the hell ever went to Joe Louis' camp to watch him do a bench press?There wasn't a barbell within a hundred miles o Pompton Lakes.
.

Boxing is one of those sports that's gotten worse talentwise. There's not as many kids that want to be fighters,go to the gym to make the sacrifice and endure,and have those tiger eyes. There are fewer and fewer boxing gyms as time marches on.Today,we see a lot of these gyms that advertise that they specialize in all the combative arts,but the boxing end probably is the weakest facet.That's because there are fewer and fewer trainers that have the knowledge to pass along.It doesn't necessarily mean that if some guy was a fighter he's got the goods to be GOOD trainer.If he didn't get the good training what is he going to pass along?A trainer at the start has to serve as sort of an apprentice.He has to watch and learn from the good trainers to acquire that knowledge. if he's looking at nothing then nothing plus nothing adds up to nothing.Brother,I've plenty of that nowadays.Some guy who's had a few fights maybe or never been in the ring throws a towel over his shoulder and puts a Q tip in his mouth and he thinks he's Eddie Futch.

You younger fellas,go on and talk about what's out there today.Sure there are some good ones,but the class today is only skin deep.Just look at BoxRec's LB.For Lb. List. Compare them to a similar list back 40,50,60,70 years ago.These guys today just wouldn't make weight.


"Sugar" Ray Leonard

[dagosd2000]

Semper Fi

There's a book called "With The Old Breed".It was written by a Marine named E.B. Sledge(Eugene Bondurant Sledge ,nickname"Sledgehammer"). The book is about the Marines who fought on Peleliu and Okinawa in World War II.More specifically, it's Sledge's account of the actions of his unit -Ist Marine Division ,5 Corps.That was my father's outfit.My father was at Peleliu and Okinawa.His book is kind of a personal bible for me.The stories are very prophetic and cut through the phony pretentions that people gobble up without any thought. Maybe my father being there also gives the book a personal credence. It's the things my father never much talked to me about because I wasn't there with him so it would have been impossible for me to share went he went through..Sledge is like my father's voice.His stories in a way are also my father's.

Sledge was in Company K.He was a mortarman.My father was in B Company.He was a rifleman.They didn't know each other in those campaigns.After the war both Sledge and my father and 6 Corps were sent to Peking,China to help disarm the Japanese Kwantung army.Both Sledge and my father were honorably discharged.They attained the rank of corporal.

I don't want to describe Sledge's book. I don't want to critique it. I never served my country.I was never in a battle. I often talk about when around fighters I know when to keep my distance when they commiserate with other fighters.It's not like they're telling me to wait a moment;this is our time;we just want to share old stories that only we can feel the empathy.I just feel like an outsider and when to get a cup of coffee. Then when they've got things off their chests I can re enter smoothly.

That's the way it was with my father and the Marine Corps. if he and an old dogface ,especially from the war,met up and I was with him, I'd put on my Buster Keaton face.I'd let them go on without me wanting to step on any their lines.It was their time,not mine.I'd listen and imagine in my own make believe world what they were talking about.What it was like.Maybe even putting myself into their stories, but having never been a Marine over there it was only something scripted in my mind perhaps drawing on references from some Hollywood war movie.But I want to make it clear that my father never wore any bravado on his chest.He never bragged that he was something special.

I used to think my father's favorite fighter was Rocky Marciano,but looking back on it the fighter who my father held in highest esteem was Carmen Basilio.It wasn't that he was Italian or was the welterweight and middleweight champ or that he beat "Sugar" Ray Robinson.It was because Carmen Basilio was a Marine.When Basilio beat Robinson we were all listening to the fight on the radio.i never saw my father celebrate anything like the night Basilio beat Robinson.

If my father knew someone was a Marine he'd,without any doubt,jump down next to him in the foxhole. A Marine could do no wrong.He was something different.A Marine was apart from all the others. They were brothers.

I remember when Basilio challenged Gene Fullmer for the middleweight title. Basilio was favored.But after a few rounds it was apparent that Fullmer was too strong for him. Basilio threw every round he had in his arsenal but Fullmer's armor deflected it like a .45 bullet bouncing off a Sherman tank. Basilio was getting battered and bloodied.When the referee stepped in and wouldn't let Basilio continue Basilio went after him .His corner had to hold him back.The rematch was a carbon copy of the first fight including Basilio's corner having to refrain him from wanting to mount a counterattack.My father didn't say anything after all was said and done.Fullmer was just too strong.He was a legit middleweight.Basilio was was a blown up welterweight.His heart couldn't compensate. In a a way it was kind of tragic to see.My father just walked away not saying anything.

But there was never any quit in Basilio. He answered the bell for every round in all his fights. There was no surrender in him.When asked years later what his proudest memory was he countered with "Being a Marine."When my father was nearing the end he stopped talking about the Outfit and Capone and all that mafia stuff. He put on the wall above his desk in his room pictures of Marine Corps battles on Okinawa.There was the Marine Corps emblem .He hung a Samurai sword he took off a dead Japanese soldier.My father came upon the soldier raping an Okinawan girl and my father killed him with his Kabar knife.

E.B. Sledge,Carmen Basilio,and my father are together some place now.Maybe they're somewhere on Okinawa.Maybe my father is reading E.B. Sledge's book for the first time.Maybe Carmen Basilio is sharing his recollections of basic training at Quantico.If somehow I ever catch up with those guys I'll step back and listen to a few good stories.



Carmen Basilio

[Alguiffer]

My friend, I admire the respectful way that you weave aspects of life and boxing together in your contributions. I look forward to your contributions (and art) each day. Thank you.

[dagosd2000]

My friend, I admire the respectful way that you weave aspects of life and boxing together in your contributions. I look forward to your contributions (and art) each day. Thank you.

Thank you Alguiffer.That's what I try o do.Thanks again.I appreciate it.

[dagosd2000]

The Fighter And The Phony

You can't fake it in boxing.You're performance in the ring is an open book.They can build a fight up and say it's a lead pipe cinch to be a great fight but the truth lies in the performance.But lately the power of the media can make you believe something your eyes and your heart sense differently. The scary thing is that in the end the mind will fall victim to the press.

This fight the other night with Canelo and Smith,. The press made it out to be that this is what boxing needed.Smith would be a valid test for Alvarez. Triple G, a week earlier had a fight with a similar opponent-a chap named Szeremeta- and that encounter was supposed to be a proving ground for the man from Kazakhstan.Now we could see the rubber match and get our money's worth.But both those aforementioned fights wouldn't even qualify as tune ups. They stunk because the losers showed nothing as far as having much desire to win .But the scribes wrote 'em up as fights being worthy. Granted wrote the pundits,they were runaway wins for Canelo and Gennadiy but that showed how magnificently those boys can handle their dukes.It makes me wonder how many of you out there swallowed that.

Awhile back I talked about when Miles Davis went into "Sugar" Ray Robinson's dressing room after losing to Joey Archer and begged the Sugarman on hands and knees o give up boxing. He didn't have it anymore. Davis didn't say that ,but Robinson wasn't a great fighter anymore. He was hanging on by his fingernails after returning to the ring after the Maxim fight and that was 12 long years ago.By now Ray Robinson should have poured vinegar on his nickname. He was (now I'm going to clench my teeth when I say this)a club fighter.Robinson retired for good after that fight.

I was watching a documentary about the life of Miles Davis the other night on Netflix.When i wrote earlier about the episode of Davis inside Robinson's dressing room I referred to Davis a "genius" on the horn. This was 1965 when Davis was about to reach a crossroads in his life. He Was a genius with that trumpet. Dizzy might have played faster but it was pyrotechnics minus the sensitivity.You could sit back and listen to Miles Davis play the trumpet and hear the things dreams are made of.

But Miles Davis was a very touchy guy.His ego got in the way of being true to himself. He played jazz but that moniker was considered passe by the new younger fans of the art,.In the mid 60's the Beatles had invaded the world. The terms "fusion" and "crossover" replaced the word 'jazz".The new young breed didn't have the 'ear' to appreciate what Davis was saying. They wanted a tune that lasted three minutes because that's how long their adolescent minds attention spans could endure.They didn't want to listen to Miles Davis.There wasn't enough electricity hooked up to the instruments. The amps weren't 100 feet high. He didn't shake his tailfeathers. He didn't sing.He just blew wind into a trumpet. So Miles Davis changed.He still wanted to be top bill.In order to do that he sold out.He hired a crop of "younger" musicians who were willing to go along because they were on the bandstand with Miles Davis. He gave them the "freedom" to play anyway they wanted because now Davis was instead of blowing magic into his horn sounded like he was blowing s--t out his ass.He started dressing weird.Acting weird.And the music was weird.The old school guys were questioning what the was doing and he would answer in hid drug induced state to"Go f--k yourseives."The irony to all this was that the new generation bought it. They bought it because they were told by the media that this was the "new thing."It was a fit for all the anti establishment stuff.

When Davis was breaking ground with the gang on 52nd Street in New York they were giving of them selves to the world a new take on modern music. They studied and practiced and were hard on themselves.But what came out was genius. Miles was one of the geniuses.He was the king of jazz along with a court comprised of likewise.

But then he came to that crossroads.That was around 1965 when ne was pleading with a Robinson wrapped in towels lying on a bench in a dressing room in Pittsburgh to quit fighting.

You can't fake it in boxing. Miles Davis faked it for sometime with his trumpet. But it was the scribes that sold the sham.Now the media is selling us what the spin doctors want us to believe. They're using their electronic tools to get it across. But when I said that boxing is like an open book I hope that it's not written by a bunch of warlocks.





Miles Davis
I Could Write A book.

[dagosd2000]

Blind Eye Witness

Lawyers will tell you-eyewitnesses can get it all wrong about what they saw.What you have to do is get a bunch of eyewitnesses to corroborate the same thing.But then you still might not get the facts or the truth.

I knew a fighter who was mostly a prelim guy who fought a lot at the Coliseum in San Diego.His name was Hector Lopez. I bumped into him while I was going to San Diego City College taking some undergraduate courses.It was the first day of class and when the teacher was reading off the roll I discovered that this guy was in the class.I didn't know him before but got to know him from being in this class.If it makes any difference the name of the class was "Community Relations In The City Of San Diego."Before class one day I approached Lopez and struck up a conversation.
"You used to fight at the Coliseum?"
He brightened up right away.
"I did but that was a few years ago."
We exchanged names and shook hands and every time before class we'd talk about mostly his fights at the Coliseum.He was a Chicano dude.I remember he was either a lightweight or fought around 135 pounds. He still looked fit. A chalky complexion and thick black hair.A face with high cheekbones and the squashed nose and bushy brows over liquid black eyes.He spoke carefully a with a tender tone of voice. He always had with him a briefcase he carried unlike everyone else in the class who just brought the textbook.
"What made you stop fighting?"I asked him one day before class.
"I'd had enough of fighting. I wanted to get married and my fiance said she didn't want to marry a fighter so I quit and got a job. But I want to go to school and make something of myself."
"What do you want to be?"
"I'm studying to be a social worker.I want to help people in the community."
I then switched gears and brought up a fight that I saw him in on the undercard of one of Ken Norton's fights.
"I saw you fight on the undercard of Ken Norton's fight with that guy who called himself "The Bamboo Forest."
"You mean that fighter from Argentina."
"No.That black dude.I think he was one of those Caribbean islands.He called himself 'The Bamboo Forest'.Norton knocked him out in the 2nd round."
"You must mean the guy from Argentina who Norton went the distance."
"No.I'm pretty sure it was the guy who called himself 'The Bamboo Forest' ".
"I know because I fought Cruz from Tijuana that night."
"I thought you fought that white cat they called Jerry or maybe it was Larry."
"No.It was Cruz they had to bring up from Tijuana because the guy I was supposed to fight flunked his drug test."
"You got a draw that night I remember."
"No.I won the decision."
"It was a 8 rounder."
"It was a 6 round fight."
The bell rang and we walked inside the classroom to our seats.The discrepancies of our recollections didn't cause any ill feelings. To me it wasn't important.

That weekend I was at a bar down by the beach and was conversing with the bartender.I knew him from high school.We used to go to the fights once in awhile.I brought up my acquaintance with Hector Lopez.
"You'll never know guess who's in my class at City College."
"Who?"
"Hector Lopez that fighter we saw that night at the Coliseum.He was fighting on the undercard of the Ken Norton fight with that guy who called himself 'The Bamboo' Forest' ".
"No.That was the time Norton fought Chuck Haynes.I was with you and Lopez didn't fight that night."
"You must be thinking of something else."
"We saw Hector Lopez fight at the Sports Arena.That was the only time I was with you and saw him fight.It was the undercard of the Kinchen fight."
"I'm sure you were with me when we saw Lopez fight at the Coliseum on the undercard of Norton's fight with that guy who called himself 'The Bamboo Forest ' ".
"I saw him with you at the Sports Arena."
"Are you sure?"
"How can I forget.Lopez got knocked out in the 1st round."

Needless to say I never brought it up again about the time I saw Hector Lopez fight on the undercard of Ken Norton's fight with that guy who called himself 'The Bamboo Forest',or maybe it was 'The Jungle Jaguar' ".


The San Diego Coliseum

[dagosd2000]

The Saxx Club

The Saxx Club was way east on Imperial Boulevard on the outskirts of East San Diego.People went there mostly to hear jazz music.In the area there were more houses than apartments and they were spread around. It was almost like you were in the country but then the town of Lemon Grove popped up at the end of Imperial Boulevard and you were back in civilization again.It's not there anymore. it closed around 20 years ago. There's Mexican bakery in that spot now.The Saxx Club was what they called a "black" nightclub.If you were white you could go in there but the times I went there I never saw any whites.That was because white people were afraid.They thought if they entered the place they'd get beat up or knifed by the people inside or at the least they'd be called names. But that wasn't true because the people that went there just wanted to listen to jazz music.But then again I got to thinking that if white people wanted to listen to jazz they'd go to a club in a white neighborhood or at least downtown so they'd feel more comfortable. I used to go to a few of those places that the white people went to but the music was never as good as inside the the "black" clubs like the Saxx Club.Even if it was an all white combo playing in a "white" or "mixed" club they didn't seem to get into the music like in those "black" joints.They knew that you they had to play well because black people knew what good jazz was and they wouldn't take to being faked.Knowing that the blacks in their clubs had an affinity for the music the musicians would always lay out.

Now don't get me wrong there are a lot of whites that "get it".I know that sounds kind of pretentious but that's the way it plays out. Mostly the whites that had an ear were musicians or they opened up their minds to it without thinking that it was a black thing and then put on a racial air.Hey,if you don't dig jazz that's cool. I've always thought the people who knock it got a hang up about blacks.That was the feeling after World War I when jazz started spreading its wings here in America and Europe.Funny,Paul Whiteman who went way back with jazz and is a white guy conducted his orchestra for George Gershwin's debut of Rhapsody In Blue in 1924.He wrote a book on the history of jazz and didn't mention one black musician.Not even Louie Armstrong.Whitemam liked to be called "Pops".I always thought that was kind of funny.

Well,getting back to the Saxx Club. Archie Moore liked to go there from time to time. Back then jazz musicians didn't make much money unless they were in New York and were guys like Miles Davis or Duke Ellington.Dave Brubeck had a white quartet.He was Jewish and the rest of the guys were white except for the bass player who was black guy named Eugene Wright.They were the ones that started playing gigs on those college campuses and started a trend.I never went to a gig at a college campus nor a concert hall. It was too out of sync.I hate to say it but jazz is best heard and played in a "black" nightclub.

One night inside the Saxx Club I saw Archie Moore and he and me started up a conversation at one of the back tables waiting for the first group to go on the bandstand. The place was filling up pretty fast.
"They're going to have a young group in here tonight,"I said to the old champ.
"That's what I heard.That's why I'm here."
"This as good a place as any."
"They'll know right off the bat if they can make it."
"You can't put anything over in here,"I said.
"Remember that night I saw you in Fatfingers and there was Jimmy Smith playing?"
"That was pretty horrible."
"He does that when he plays in "white" folks' clubs. He fakes it all night."
"Yeah,but everyone loved it."
"Whenever I fought in New York I'd go to 52nd Street and listen to all those cats like Parker and Dizzy. Joe Louis would drop in and so would Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles.. Ray Robinson's place was uptown and sometimes I'd go their after the other places closed for the night."
"I would have loved to have done that."
"Those places are all gone now. Besides, a lot of jazz musicians have contoured the music to fit in with the new generation."
"I know what you mean."
The owner of the Saxx Club came to the microphone to announce the first group.
"Ladies and gentlemen I'm proud to have the Saxx Club introduce the debut of a local jazz trio who call themselves 'The Three Winds'. Please give them a big hand."
These three kids came out.They looked around high school age. There was a piano,bass,and drums. They kicked off the set with "Night Train."They played for about 45 minutes. They were scuffling all the way through. the set.After a number me and Archie Moore would exchange a quick glance.They didn't get much of a hand when they were done because after awhile no one was paying much attention.
"Well, they sure won't get very far with that stuff,"remarked the old champ.
"They played too many pop tunes."
"They need to go to the woodshed,"he said laughing.
"Well,I think I'll go home,"I said."I've got to get up early to go to work.Are you going to stay?"
"I'll hang around for the next group but if they're like this last one I'll go home and put on my Guy Lombardo record."
I got up and said good by.As I walked to my car I didn't know if Moore was kidding about putting on his Guy Lombardo record.


Charlie Parker

[dagosd2000]

Primary Source

I often bring up my father when I post on the forum.I don't think I've ever mentioned my mother. I talk about my wife sometimes but that's usually something regarding that she was with me at a particular time or place so she gets included in the anecdote.My mother and my wife are the closet people in my life but being females I can't figure them out and never will.My mother passed away in 2002 and I think of her still.My wife is a lot like my mother(some say a man marries his "mother") but although I think I know what's going on inside them I can't figure them out so I don't dwell on it much anymore.The closest I can come to thinking of it is that they understand me but I don't understand them. I think that my wife and mother looked at men as being little boys and didn't know what they were doing half the time. I remember when my uncle died, who was my mother's brother,my mother broke down and cried "He was just a boy." When my father died in 1997 my mother broke down and the first words she said sobbing were."He was a boy." Now you've probably guessed that I was a "mama's boy."Once that's been established you're always one but then you try to go through life trying to be a man.I guess boxing is one of those streets you can take to aspiring manhood.

I use many of my father's recollections as a source for my posts.There were two things that were unique during his lifetime that I consider valuable if not just interesting. One:he was a front line rifleman,a Marine,at two of the most horrific battles in World War II-Peleliu and Okinawa.Two:he was in the Outfit in Chicago.

My father didn't talk about his war experiences much but his stories about his life in the mafia were enlightening. When those Mob guys would come out to San Diego to see my father the FBI would come knocking on the door ten minutes later after they left.Then they'd sit in the living room like little kids listening to my father talk about Al Capone.

Living in my house was like being in the "Goodfellas" movie.But of course my father would always laugh off a movie like "The Godfather" or "Goodfellas" and say "that isn't the way it happened" or "They wouldn't have done something like that."He didn't put any credence in "mafia movies."I'll also add he never thought much of "war movies."He said the Brits did a better job of it but then they were even off the mark.

Being in The Outfit put my father in kind of a world of an illegal CIA, though the CIA is above the law too. They just get away with it. Mob guys get caught in the end.But being an Outfit guy let my father in on a lot of info the general public wasn't privy to.I once asked my father if the Mob feared the FBI.This was in the 50's.
"We've got pictures of J. Edgar Hoover in compromising positions.He's in our hip pockets."
I'd always raise my eyebrows when he said something like that.

The main recreational activities for those Mob guys was gambling. They loved going to the track.They tried to fix a lot of races but the stumbling block was that the horses didn't speak English not to mention Italian and money to them was just horse fodder.If the Mob wanted to bet on a "sure" thing then boxing was made to order for them.In fact sometimes I think they even ordered it so they could gamble their money.The first time I heard anything about how the Mob fixed a fight was when my father took us all over to Sam Giancana's house in Oak Park.It was one of those Sunday afternoon dinners and after everyone made the pasta disappear the wives sat in the kitchen commiserating and the kids went outside and played while the "boys" assembled in the living room talking and drinking anisette.After playing hide and go seek for a few minutes I'd hide for good somewhere near that living room.I never heard them talk about killing anyone or something like that.That they wouldn't talk about when there were women and kids around.

That afternoon I heard them bring up how they controlled the fight racket, especially in Chicago. They first mentioned the fight with Gans and McGovern around the turn of the century. But that was before the Italians ran things.Back then it was the Jews with Arnold Rothstein in control. Abe Attell was also hooked up with those guys.Later they fixed the World series in 1919 along with my grandfather Diamond Joe Esposito. The judge let the ballplayers off but then baseball started to tighten up the screws and hired judge Landis to be the commissioner and he banned all those players who were on the skim from baseball for life.

Then they started talking about the current shenanigans in boxing in town and they brought up the name Bob Satterfield a lot. They said that he was a great talent but would never show that greatness because he'd "lay down" for The Mob so they could make money off him and then blow it at the track.. Satterfield fought big name white fighters unlike that Black Murderer Row contingent who had to be satisfied to make war on each other.But Satterfield usually had to fight "funny" knowing the bets were in and if he wanted to continue fighting to make a living he had to go along.What the hell could he do about it?Go to the police?They got their cut. Go to the newspapers?They wouldn't print it.So boxing for Bob Satterfield was better than shining shoes.

I think of a guy like Bob Satterfield and say to myself if women see men as being "boys" then they need to get glasses.


Bob Satterfield

[dagosd2000]

My Thoughts On A Monday Morning

I liked going to the gym whether it was a boxing gym or a gym for weightlifters but that was a long time ago and things have changed since then.Getting married shifted my focus and priorities, but let's say I never got hitched, I don't think hanging around gyms would blow much wind in my sails anymore. I'll brush off the iron workers' gyms first. When I was lifting heavy it was getting to the point that I was more or less by myself in conquering a barbell.The others were in there to socialize more than making any gains. It wasn't that way when I started but then gyms began to morph into these franchise joints.The little gym with the heavy plates and dumbbells gave way to mostly machines and saunas. The roughness was transformed into glitz. But that was because now women were going to the gym.I'll leave it there because now when I start to bum rap these so called multi combative martial arts gyms the women have taken over.

A boxing gym was where the men went to get away from the softer sex and feel at ease. Women were OK with that. They had their mothers,sisters, and the kids that they could be around and commiserate in the kitchen or at the store, and they didn't want any men tagging along. For us the boxing gym was a good man cave.You didn't have to watch your P's and Q's. The place didn't have to be nice and tidy and all cleaned up.You could talk about women and make some crack and you weren't being out of line. But these multi martial arts facilities are for me a real drag.Don't say the word s--t.You have to say "poo."I nderstand.

I also understand business is business and without the split tails(Oops.I'm sorry)paying memberships gyms wouldn't survive. Even the word "gym" has become obsolete. It's a "health spa" which is a another name for a social club. it's a place to do exercises and meet someone.

But today we've been invaded in the boxing gyms by these females who possess just as much desire to put a hurt on someone than half the men.There used to be a woman fighter in Tijuana named Jackie Nava. I liked watching her fight.So did the Tijuaneros.She was very popular.But her popularity stemmed from the fact that she kept her femininity,in the ring and out. But she's in her 40's and I don't see her name on any cards.In Tijuana I wouldn't be surprised if there's more female boxers than of the male ilk. It's always been a tough go to make a living in Tijuana. There are more girls in the gyms and in the streets.

Maybe I' m looking at this all wrong but it's the vibes I'm getting. The women in the U.S. are taking over. They're very assertive. They want to compete with the men. They want to beat the man.I think they're out of touch. Losing their female instincts or at least not listening to them. They talk too much. They want to run the government and be president and kick ass in an octagon.They're getting to be a pain in the ass.In Mexico the sexes seem to know their respective places.But the argument is this- look at Mexico and look at the United States. The American Dream is getting on prescribed medication,running up your credit,and working your ass off to make ends meet.In Mexico very very few have credit nor have health insurance nor have a job.If they have a job they can barely buy enough to eat each day.No wonder women are walking the streets and fighting professionally.But they do what they have to do. It's like in TJ they've always lived with a "coronovirus" by any other name and take life as it comes.

Jackie Nava

[dagosd2000]

El Maestro

He got respect but in my opinion he doesn't get mentioned enough when the boxing buffs sitting at the bar are tossing around names of the great fighters.I'm talking about Miguel Canto. In Mexico they called him "El Maestro",The Teacher. I think a couple of things hurt him as far as him not getting the credit he deserves.Yeah,I know he finally got into the IBHOF.And the AP selected him "Flyweight Fighter Of The Century"in 1999 along with Pancho Villa(not the bandit )But who in the hell knows that?Who in the hell has ever heard of Miguel Canto unless you have been following the fights for a good stretch?

The things that I think hurt him with the name recognition is one:he never fought in the big venues here in the states when the other great Mexican fighters were showing off in arenas like The Olympic Auditorium and The Forum.He defended his title in Asia a lot where the Japanese,Korean, and Thai fighters were very hot.Even in Mexico he fought mostly close to home in the deep south of Mexico. He was from Merida which was a breeding ground for good Mexican talent in the lower divisions.The other thing that kept him out the news for the most part was that he was a flyweight.They need to change the name of that division. But now they've added a class even lower-minimum.You're in a sport where you're trying to punch another man's lights out and you're classified as a "flyweight" or a "minimum."

Canto never fought in Tijuana when I was going to the fights down there on a regular basis.All the other great and not so great Mexican fighters made their appearances in TJ but Canto's name is not in the registry.He only fought once in LA and that was a weak title defense against an opponent who showed he had only 8 fights under his belt.

His signature performances were against Betulio Gonzalez of Venezuela. In a trilogy Canto came out on top rwice.Two of the fights were in Betulio's backyard of Caracas and the one time Canto lost(the first fight)he got his pocket picked.

There was a boxing program on TV on Sunday afternoons in Mexico. It was 30 minutes long and would feature the current crop of Mexican fighter and then wind up showing fights of the past legends of boxeo Mexicano.Watching that program kept me caught up with Miguel Canto.He's in there with all the "cuties" who ever put on the gloves. Smart footwork that put him in position to defend and attack.There wasn't a punch that was vacant in his arsenal. The guy never waisted any gas yet he moved around with the grace of a Pep.I'd say he was even smoother than Willie. Canto was always in control and when he was pressed he'd fight back like a tiger.He was never a "runner" -a guy who just wanted to last. He was always at 112 pounds even at the end. He didn't look like a lot of flyweights,especially the young ones,who you knew were still filling out and would move up in weight.

It was Father Time who gave him the most trouble.After the draw with the Korean, Park ,overseas you could see that he was losing a step.The reflexes were starting to betray him. He was getting caught when before he'd slip under it and come up with something of his own.Then he got head butted in a fight in Guadalajara that put in eye in real bad shape.He lost 4 of his last 5 and shouldn't have been in there.

Oh,I'm glad he's in the IBHOF. He was a treat to watch. As fancy a guy with the gloves as you'd ever want o see. They should compile his fights and make DVD and call it "This Is How To Be A Fighter"by The Teacher-El Maestro.


El Maestro

[f read]

Sorry, Expug, I'm thinking of Kenny Bogner.

Now Bogner would have been a great fight for Tony. there was talk of him fighting Tony and he was in attendance for Tony's fight with Howard Davis, and I guess he and his people didn't like what they saw, because we never heard from them again.

Kennys father worked in the corner for Baltazar. It was at the Philadelphia Convention Center January 1992. Baltazar lost a decision to hometown Rockin Rodney Moore. It was on a Taylor and Whitaker undercard. He was the cutman. He was a good guy.

[dagosd2000]

Fathers And Sons

It was one of the many documentaries about Muhammad Ali. All the fights.All the fighters he fought.All the wives.All the people in his entourage. I've seen plenty of footage of his daughters talking about their father.They seemed like daddy's girls. That's good.Real good. But the kid who stood out in my mind in this documentary was his son.He was named Muhammad Ali Jr. I remember one time Ali was talking about him and saying he didn't want him to be a fighter.Fighting was a rough way to make a living .He wanted his son to be a senator or a doctor.Use his mind instead of his brawn. He didn't want his son to try to follow in his footsteps.


I forget about what they asked his son. Probably something like "What was it like to be Muhammad Ali's son?"The young man didn't look like his father at all. He was sitting down.You could see he was thin in stature,even to say he was bony looking.I don't think he was nearly as tall as his father. What struck me were his eyes. They bugged out. I don't know whether that was the way they were naturally or that he was nervous about being interviewed. He did seem tense.He'd probably been asked what it was like to be The Greatest's son a million times. The way the kid came across was like there wasn't a lot of time nor interaction spent between father and son.I'm guessing. of course but the amount of coverage given to Muhammad Ali could fill a library. The amount we know about his son wouldn't fill a page in a book in the childrens' section.

But Muhammad Ali was the most recognized face on the planet.He still might be. Even the youngsters today know his name and can pick out his face.He was the most significant athlete of all time.So where's that leave his son?

As his son fidgeted in his chair. He said that his father sat him down once and wanted to have one of those man to man talks.
"My father said to me that HE wasn't The Greatest but that I was The Greatest.I didn't know how what to say.Him calling me The Greatest."
The boy left it at that for a moment still moving in his seat..There was no animosity in his voice. He was taken aback a little. He wasn't offended.It just didn't make sense.
"The Greatest calling me that.No, he was."
I think he wanted to say something like,"Why would he say that?"

I remember FDR and Winston Churchill saying the biggest regret they had in their lives was that didn't spend enough time with their children. It was something they couldn't bring back and start over again.I think Muhammad Ali felt the same way about his son. That's why he told him the HE was the greatest and not him.

To be the son of Muhammad Ali and seeing that being The Greatest was more important than spending time with his son.In the end that doesn't quite make you that great.


Muhammad Ali