Was James Ellis a Lineal Champion in your eyes? I know Frazier didn't enter the tournament, but that sure wasn't Jimmy's fault. I think an argument could be made for James. Ali had "retired" and #2 fought #3 because #1 wasn't available? What do you guys think?
( I call him James because I once heard Muhammad Ali call him James Ellis, when I sat right behind him in the airing of the Marciano - Ali Computer fight in the old Stanley Theater, in Philadelphia, PA. I sat next to the owner of the Maplewood in Hammonton, New Jersey, who made the best Chicken Cacciatore I have ever tasted. Ali's whole entourage was seated to his left. We heard Ali ask the usher to reserve the next to the last row, so we ran and sat in the last row, on the end, and I ended up right behind him. I introduced myself to him, shook his hand, and he often turned and spoke with me. It was a great night! Ali kept up a running commentary throughout the whole "fight" which made the outing very entertaining. He even broke the back of the seat in front of him with his punches and antics. )
Djanders44 wrote: ↑25 Dec 2020, 14:16
Was James Ellis a Lineal Champion in your eyes? I know Frazier didn't enter the tournament, but that sure wasn't Jimmy's fault. I think an argument could be made for James. Ali had "retired" and #2 fought #3 because #1 wasn't available? What do you guys think?
( I call him James because I once heard Muhammad Ali call him James Ellis, when I sat right behind him in the airing of the Marciano - Ali Computer fight in the old Stanley Theater, in Philadelphia, PA. I sat next to the owner of the Maplewood in Hammonton, New Jersey, who made the best Chicken Cacciatore I have ever tasted. Ali's whole entourage was seated to his left. We heard Ali ask the usher to reserve the next to the last row, so we ran and sat in the last row, on the end, and I ended up right behind him. I introduced myself to him, shook his hand, and he often turned and spoke with me. It was a great night! Ali kept up a running commentary throughout the whole "fight" which made the outing very entertaining. He even broke the back of the seat in front of him with his punches and antics. )
My wife and i really love Joes Maplewood Inn. We used to go there several times a year. Yes i do recall Ali calling him James. Remember that sequence on Ali Skill Brains and Guts Ali was in training for his fight with Ellis. Incidentally that was his first fight back after the March 8 1971 Superfight with Frazier. Anyway Frazier comes to visit Ali at training camp and Ali says Did Joe Frazier pay his dollar to get in here? Then he says if James Ellis even dreams of beating me he better wake upon and apologize. I believe at that time Ali was residing in Cherry Hill NJ.
Djanders44 wrote: ↑25 Dec 2020, 14:16
Was James Ellis a Lineal Champion in your eyes? I know Frazier didn't enter the tournament, but that sure wasn't Jimmy's fault. I think an argument could be made for James. Ali had "retired" and #2 fought #3 because #1 wasn't available? What do you guys think?
( I call him James because I once heard Muhammad Ali call him James Ellis, when I sat right behind him in the airing of the Marciano - Ali Computer fight in the old Stanley Theater, in Philadelphia, PA. I sat next to the owner of the Maplewood in Hammonton, New Jersey, who made the best Chicken Cacciatore I have ever tasted. Ali's whole entourage was seated to his left. We heard Ali ask the usher to reserve the next to the last row, so we ran and sat in the last row, on the end, and I ended up right behind him. I introduced myself to him, shook his hand, and he often turned and spoke with me. It was a great night! Ali kept up a running commentary throughout the whole "fight" which made the outing very entertaining. He even broke the back of the seat in front of him with his punches and antics. )
My wife and i really love Joes Maplewood Inn. We used to go there several times a year. Yes i do recall Ali calling him James. Remember that sequence on Ali Skill Brains and Guts Ali was in training for his fight with Ellis. Incidentally that was his first fight back after the March 8 1971 Superfight with Frazier. Anyway Frazier comes to visit Ali at training camp and Ali says Did Joe Frazier pay his dollar to get in here? Then he says if James Ellis even dreams of beating me he better wake upon and apologize. I believe at that time Ali was residing in Cherry Hill NJ.
Yes!!! Joe Italiano was seated right next to me. I imagine his son may be running the Maplewood now. I know they opened a branch in Vineland at one time. Good memories. I live in Maine now. My wife and I will be visiting Vineland after this Covid dies down. The Stanley Theater was torn down not long after that event. Ali kept yelling: "I WANT JOE FRAZIAH" A guy down front yelled: "Frazier will beat you!" Ali replied: "You keep up that jive, and he'll fall in 5!" Good stuff!
Djanders44 wrote: ↑25 Dec 2020, 14:16
Was James Ellis a Lineal Champion in your eyes? I know Frazier didn't enter the tournament, but that sure wasn't Jimmy's fault. I think an argument could be made for James. Ali had "retired" and #2 fought #3 because #1 wasn't available? What do you guys think?
( I call him James because I once heard Muhammad Ali call him James Ellis, when I sat right behind him in the airing of the Marciano - Ali Computer fight in the old Stanley Theater, in Philadelphia, PA. I sat next to the owner of the Maplewood in Hammonton, New Jersey, who made the best Chicken Cacciatore I have ever tasted. Ali's whole entourage was seated to his left. We heard Ali ask the usher to reserve the next to the last row, so we ran and sat in the last row, on the end, and I ended up right behind him. I introduced myself to him, shook his hand, and he often turned and spoke with me. It was a great night! Ali kept up a running commentary throughout the whole "fight" which made the outing very entertaining. He even broke the back of the seat in front of him with his punches and antics. )
My wife and i really love Joes Maplewood Inn. We used to go there several times a year. Yes i do recall Ali calling him James. Remember that sequence on Ali Skill Brains and Guts Ali was in training for his fight with Ellis. Incidentally that was his first fight back after the March 8 1971 Superfight with Frazier. Anyway Frazier comes to visit Ali at training camp and Ali says Did Joe Frazier pay his dollar to get in here? Then he says if James Ellis even dreams of beating me he better wake upon and apologize. I believe at that time Ali was residing in Cherry Hill NJ.
Yes!!! Joe Italiano was seated right next to me. I imagine his son may be running the Maplewood now. I know they opened a branch in Vineland at one time. Good memories. I live in Maine now. My wife and I will be visiting Vineland after this Covid dies down. The Stanley Theater was torn down not long after that event. Ali kept yelling: "I WANT JOE FRAZIAH" A guy down front yelled: "Frazier will beat you!" Ali replied: "You keep up that jive, and he'll fall in 5!" Good stuff!
A few years ago The Maplewood opened another location in the Moorestown Mall. I have never been to the Vineland location and was at Moorestown once. I prefer the Hammonton locale which i believe is the original and have been there 25 times or more. Yes i have taken a dozen friends and relatives there over the last 25 years after being told of it in 1994 by a co-worker and nobody left disappointed top notch food and service.
f read wrote: ↑25 Dec 2020, 16:39
My wife and i really love Joes Maplewood Inn. We used to go there several times a year. Yes i do recall Ali calling him James. Remember that sequence on Ali Skill Brains and Guts Ali was in training for his fight with Ellis. Incidentally that was his first fight back after the March 8 1971 Superfight with Frazier. Anyway Frazier comes to visit Ali at training camp and Ali says Did Joe Frazier pay his dollar to get in here? Then he says if James Ellis even dreams of beating me he better wake upon and apologize. I believe at that time Ali was residing in Cherry Hill NJ.
Yes!!! Joe Italiano was seated right next to me. I imagine his son may be running the Maplewood now. I know they opened a branch in Vineland at one time. Good memories. I live in Maine now. My wife and I will be visiting Vineland after this Covid dies down. The Stanley Theater was torn down not long after that event. Ali kept yelling: "I WANT JOE FRAZIAH" A guy down front yelled: "Frazier will beat you!" Ali replied: "You keep up that jive, and he'll fall in 5!" Good stuff!
A few years ago The Maplewood opened another location in the Moorestown Mall. I have never been to the Vineland location and was at Moorestown once. I prefer the Hammonton locale which i believe is the original and have been there 25 times or more. Yes i have taken a dozen friends and relatives there over the last 25 years after being told of it in 1994 by a co-worker and nobody left disappointed top notch food and service.
Hammonton is indeed the original. I knew Joe's Dad, who originally started it there. I can't recall his first name. I don't recall Joe's son's first name either, but he may be in charge now. I lost touch with Joe over the years. He used to let me in the kitchen there to watch him cook. I went to more than a few fights with him, theater closed circuit and in person. Good times.
Yes!!! Joe Italiano was seated right next to me. I imagine his son may be running the Maplewood now. I know they opened a branch in Vineland at one time. Good memories. I live in Maine now. My wife and I will be visiting Vineland after this Covid dies down. The Stanley Theater was torn down not long after that event. Ali kept yelling: "I WANT JOE FRAZIAH" A guy down front yelled: "Frazier will beat you!" Ali replied: "You keep up that jive, and he'll fall in 5!" Good stuff!
A few years ago The Maplewood opened another location in the Moorestown Mall. I have never been to the Vineland location and was at Moorestown once. I prefer the Hammonton locale which i believe is the original and have been there 25 times or more. Yes i have taken a dozen friends and relatives there over the last 25 years after being told of it in 1994 by a co-worker and nobody left disappointed top notch food and service.
Hammonton is indeed the original. I knew Joe's Dad, who originally started it there. I can't recall his first name. I don't recall Joe's son's first name either, but he may be in charge now. I lost touch with Joe over the years. He used to let me in the kitchen there to watch him cook. I went to more than a few fights with him, theater closed circuit and in person. Good times.
The second location is actually Mays Landing which is nearby Atlantic City. It also looks like Jimmy is now running the establishments. They are top of the line a good meal at any visit. Yes James Ellis was not in the same league as Joe Frazier or Muhammad Ali. Still decent though.
From everything I’ve seen and heard, Ellis was a good fighter and a nice man. However, he wasn’t a lineal champion.
Ali was the champion, despite his forced inactivity. He stopped being champ when he announced he was retiring. He did that shortly before Ellis-Frazier I, which enabled Frazier, as the winner of that fight, to claim the lineal championship.
This was back when the WBA and WBC had only one champion per class.
To me Jimmy Ellis was as real a champion as they come. Ali had, after all, retired. Ellis won the vacant title by beating Jerry Quarry for the WBA's vacant belt, then retained it with a questionable decision over Floyd Patterson, then lost it to Frazier.
Was he a lineal champion? Maybe, maybe not..but he was , and will forever be, a champion, IMO.
AntonioMartin wrote: ↑02 Jan 2021, 02:12
To me Jimmy Ellis was as real a champion as they come. Ali had, after all, retired. Ellis won the vacant title by beating Jerry Quarry for the WBA's vacant belt, then retained it with a questionable decision over Floyd Patterson, then lost it to Frazier.
Ali only announced his retirement 2 weeks before the Ellis-Frazier fight.
Up to that point Ellis was only the WBA champion and Frazier was the NYSAC champion.
The WBC recognized Frazier after he beat Jimmy Ellis.
AntonioMartin wrote: ↑02 Jan 2021, 02:12
To me Jimmy Ellis was as real a champion as they come. Ali had, after all, retired. Ellis won the vacant title by beating Jerry Quarry for the WBA's vacant belt, then retained it with a questionable decision over Floyd Patterson, then lost it to Frazier.
Ali only announced his retirement 2 weeks before the Ellis-Frazier fight.
Up to that point Ellis was only the WBA champion and Frazier was the NYSAC champion.
The WBC recognized Frazier after he beat Jimmy Ellis.
As Matt Dillon in Gunsmoke would say :"hmnn..I see"....
According to Teddy Brenner, making the Frazier-Mathis fight fight for the NYSAC title was only done to improve the gate. To me, it wasn't accurate to consider him the "real" champion at that point. Obviously it was a an odd situation with Ali getting stripped. Ellis to his credit, entered the WBA tournament and won three fights to win it.
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