Sugar Ray Leonard versus James Toney

[goose 5]

12 rounds- 160 lbs.

[f read]

Leonard all the way. Speed and finesse trumps anything that James brings to the table. Ray is too skilled and he wins a unanimous decision.

[gilgamesh]

I'd have to give the edge to Leonard via UD. At 168 Toney wins.

[DrDuke]

Leonard by close dec in a chess match.

[Woldemar]

SRL by UD

[elmersalsa]

There is no way that Sugar Ray at 160lbs beats a guy like James "Lights Out" Toney. Toney was too talented. I guess many of us forgot that. This is not welterweight. It is middleweight.

[Seamus]

It would take someone on the level of a Dave Tiberi to beat Toney at 160.

[gilgamesh]

There is no way that Sugar Ray at 160lbs beats a guy like James "Lights Out" Toney. Toney was too talented. I guess many of us forgot that. This is not welterweight. It is middleweight.

Leonard beat Hagler at Middleweight. The Leonard that beat Hagler could beat James Toney. Toney wasn't at his best at 160. He was too drained to get the most out of his body.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Toney was too inconsistent to beat someone as talented as srl

[elmersalsa]

There is no way that Sugar Ray at 160lbs beats a guy like James "Lights Out" Toney. Toney was too talented. I guess many of us forgot that. This is not welterweight. It is middleweight.

Leonard beat Hagler at Middleweight. The Leonard that beat Hagler could beat James Toney. Toney wasn't at his best at 160. He was too drained to get the most out of his body.

Sugar Ray beat a FADING MARVELOUS. That Marvelous wouldn't beat Toney in no time.

Put the Toney that magnificently fought the great Mike McCallum in a fighter of masters and he beats both of them, twice on Sunday.

[elmersalsa]

Toney was too inconsistent to beat someone as talented as srl

Say what? Inconsistent?

[elmersalsa]

It would take someone on the level of a Dave Tiberi to beat Toney at 160.

Tiberi would have whupped Leonard too. At 160.

[gilgamesh]

There is no way that Sugar Ray at 160lbs beats a guy like James "Lights Out" Toney. Toney was too talented. I guess many of us forgot that. This is not welterweight. It is middleweight.

Leonard beat Hagler at Middleweight. The Leonard that beat Hagler could beat James Toney. Toney wasn't at his best at 160. He was too drained to get the most out of his body.

Sugar Ray beat a FADING MARVELOUS. That Marvelous wouldn't beat Toney in no time.

Put the Toney that magnificently fought the great Mike McCallum in a fighter of masters and he beats both of them, twice on Sunday.

Leonard was coming off a 5 year retirement. You think he was at his best for the Hagler fight? Who has ever come off of a 5 year retirement better than ever?

Just Leonard apparently?

Dude Toney is one of my favorite all time fighters. Leonard is not, but Leonard beats him at 160. That's just real.

[gilgamesh]

It would take someone on the level of a Dave Tiberi to beat Toney at 160.

Tiberi would have whupped Leonard too. At 160.

It is kinda a shame that he retired right after this bout and we never got to know how good he really was. Like was it just a one night exceptional performance due to a combination of poor preparation by Toney and great preparation by Tiberi or was Tiberi really that good?

Hard to say.

I would think it's the former. Though Tiberi did have the right style to give Toney problems in those days.

[elmersalsa]

Leonard beat Hagler at Middleweight. The Leonard that beat Hagler could beat James Toney. Toney wasn't at his best at 160. He was too drained to get the most out of his body.

Sugar Ray beat a FADING MARVELOUS. That Marvelous wouldn't beat Toney in no time.

Put the Toney that magnificently fought the great Mike McCallum in a fighter of masters and he beats both of them, twice on Sunday.

Leonard was coming off a 5 year retirement. You think he was at his best for the Hagler fight? Who has ever come off of a 5 year retirement better than ever?

Just Leonard apparently?

Dude Toney is one of my favorite all time fighters. Leonard is not, but Leonard beats him at 160. That's just real.

That's unrealistic. A bigger great fighter always beats most of the time the great little man. That is a rule in boxing, most of the time.

[gilgamesh]

Sugar Ray beat a FADING MARVELOUS. That Marvelous wouldn't beat Toney in no time.

Put the Toney that magnificently fought the great Mike McCallum in a fighter of masters and he beats both of them, twice on Sunday.

Leonard was coming off a 5 year retirement. You think he was at his best for the Hagler fight? Who has ever come off of a 5 year retirement better than ever?

Just Leonard apparently?

Dude Toney is one of my favorite all time fighters. Leonard is not, but Leonard beats him at 160. That's just real.

That's unrealistic. A bigger great fighter always beats most of the time the great little man. That is a rule in boxing, most of the time.

Right, but Toney was VERY drained at Middleweight. He was not at his best at that weight. He was killing himself to keep getting down to Middleweight.

Some guys get better when they move up to a more natural weight where they're not draining themselves so much. Toney is one of them.

[elmersalsa]

no boob in

Leonard was coming off a 5 year retirement. You think he was at his best for the Hagler fight? Who has ever come off of a 5 year retirement better than ever?

Just Leonard apparently?

Dude Toney is one of my favorite all time fighters. Leonard is not, but Leonard beats him at 160. That's just real.

That's unrealistic. A bigger great fighter always beats most of the time the great little man. That is a rule in boxing, most of the time.

Right, but Toney was VERY drained at Middleweight. He was not at his best at that weight. He was killing himself to keep getting down to Middleweight.

Some guys get better when they move up to a more natural weight where they're not draining themselves so much. Toney is one of them.

So, you think the Sugar Ray that barely beat a FADING MARVELOUS beats the James Toney that drew with the great Mike McCallum? I know that you have seen that masterful fight.

I can't see it. Sugar Ray above 147lbs was not that great. Do we have to see his fights above 147?

[gilgamesh]

no boob in

That's unrealistic. A bigger great fighter always beats most of the time the great little man. That is a rule in boxing, most of the time.

Right, but Toney was VERY drained at Middleweight. He was not at his best at that weight. He was killing himself to keep getting down to Middleweight.

Some guys get better when they move up to a more natural weight where they're not draining themselves so much. Toney is one of them.

So, you think the Sugar Ray that barely beat a FADING MARVELOUS beats the James Toney that drew with the great Mike McCallum? I know that you have seen that masterful fight.

I can't see it. Sugar Ray above 147lbs was not that great. Do we have to see his fights above 147?

I already said what I think would happen. You're entitled to disagree with it.

I also know you hate Leonard, and sh*t on him at every turn so your opinion at least when it comes to Leonard is questionable at best.

[elmersalsa]

no boob in


Right, but Toney was VERY drained at Middleweight. He was not at his best at that weight. He was killing himself to keep getting down to Middleweight.

Some guys get better when they move up to a more natural weight where they're not draining themselves so much. Toney is one of them.

So, you think the Sugar Ray that barely beat a FADING MARVELOUS beats the James Toney that drew with the great Mike McCallum? I know that you have seen that masterful fight.

I can't see it. Sugar Ray above 147lbs was not that great. Do we have to see his fights above 147?

I already said what I think would happen. You're entitled to disagree with it.

I also know you hate Leonard, and sh*t on him at every turn so your opinion at least when it comes to Leonard is questionable at best.

I asked you to review his fights after welterweight and you ducked it. Now, I hate Sugar Ray by being realistic. You want to put like others in here Leonard on a pedestal. In here, he could never lose even if you match him with King Kong.

Leonard and Toney, both are favorite fighters of mine. Sugar Ray beat a FADING MARVELOUS and that was the whole truth. Put Toney with both of them and he whups both versions of them, twice on Sunday.

One thing is being realistic. The other, is being totally biased. Sugar Ray above 147lbs did not do nothing great, except the fading Marvelous fight.

[gilgamesh]

I wouldn't say Ducked it, so much as I simply don't care to humor you with this because I know your mind is already made up when it comes to Ray Leonard so why waste my time?

I certainly don't think Leonard is unbeatable. Especially at Middleweight, we're not putting him up against the best Middleweight ever here. We're putting him up against James Toney who achieved greater things beyond Middleweight.

[elmersalsa]

I wouldn't say Ducked it, so much as I simply don't care to humor you with this because I know your mind is already made up when it comes to Ray Leonard so why waste my time?

I certainly don't think Leonard is unbeatable. Especially at Middleweight, we're not putting him up against the best Middleweight ever here. We're putting him up against James Toney who achieved greater things beyond Middleweight.

James Toney is one of the greatest middleweights of all-time, what are you talking about?

My mind made up about Sugar Ray? I know tge capabilities of Sugar Ray more than you ever would. I don't put him on a pedestal like you and others in this forum.

At welterweight, he was remarkable. The best welterweight of the last 50+ years in my opinion. But, above 147lbs, he was nothing but a comic book. And that's the whole truth.

He only had 7 fights in the last 15 years of his professional career and many in here wanna put him top 10 all-time when there are more deserving boxers?

6 of his 7 fights, to his standards, were mediocre. And he beats a prime Toney who was a much more complete fighter than he was? At 160lbs? Be realistic, man! Be realistic!

[gilgamesh]

I wouldn't say Ducked it, so much as I simply don't care to humor you with this because I know your mind is already made up when it comes to Ray Leonard so why waste my time?

I certainly don't think Leonard is unbeatable. Especially at Middleweight, we're not putting him up against the best Middleweight ever here. We're putting him up against James Toney who achieved greater things beyond Middleweight.

James Toney is one of the greatest middleweights of all-time, what are you talking about?

My mind made up about Sugar Ray? I know tge capabilities of Sugar Ray more than you ever would. I don't put him on a pedestal like you and others in this forum.

At welterweight, he was remarkable. The best welterweight of the last 50+ years in my opinion. But, above 147lbs, he was nothing but a comic book. And that's the whole truth.

He only had 7 fights in the last 15 years of his professional career and many in here wanna put him top 10 all-time when there are more deserving boxers?

6 of his 7 fights, to his standards, were mediocre. And he beats a prime Toney who was a much more complete fighter than he was? At 160lbs? Be realistic, man! Be realistic!

Toney might narrowly be one of the all time Top 20 or 25 Middleweights. Lots of guys more accomplished than him at the weight.

I'm being realistic. Leonard was a great fighter, and had all the skills necessary to defeat James Toney. If they fought at 168 Toney would win handily.

Or even if it wasn't the very best version of Leonard at 160 Toney would win, but assuming we're talking about the Leonard that beat Hagler, and the Toney that beat Nunn. I'd favor Leonard.

You're free to disagree with that if you want to.

[scorpio83]

As great as Toney was at middleweight, Leonard would overwhelm him with quicker speed and combinations to take a decision in a classic war.

[elmersalsa]

I wouldn't say Ducked it, so much as I simply don't care to humor you with this because I know your mind is already made up when it comes to Ray Leonard so why waste my time?

I certainly don't think Leonard is unbeatable. Especially at Middleweight, we're not putting him up against the best Middleweight ever here. We're putting him up against James Toney who achieved greater things beyond Middleweight.

James Toney is one of the greatest middleweights of all-time, what are you talking about?

My mind made up about Sugar Ray? I know tge capabilities of Sugar Ray more than you ever would. I don't put him on a pedestal like you and others in this forum.

At welterweight, he was remarkable. The best welterweight of the last 50+ years in my opinion. But, above 147lbs, he was nothing but a comic book. And that's the whole truth.

He only had 7 fights in the last 15 years of his professional career and many in here wanna put him top 10 all-time when there are more deserving boxers?

6 of his 7 fights, to his standards, were mediocre. And he beats a prime Toney who was a much more complete fighter than he was? At 160lbs? Be realistic, man! Be realistic!

Toney might narrowly be one of the all time Top 20 or 25 Middleweights. Lots of guys more accomplished than him at the weight.

I'm being realistic. Leonard was a great fighter, and had all the skills necessary to defeat James Toney. If they fought at 168 Toney would win handily.

Or even if it wasn't the very best version of Leonard at 160 Toney would win, but assuming we're talking about the Leonard that beat Hagler, and the Toney that beat Nunn. I'd favor Leonard.

You're free to disagree with that if you want to.

The Toney that beat Nunn whups Sugar Ray that beats Fading Marvelous. Twice on Sunday. Even Michael Nunn beats both of them (fading Marvelous and Sugar Ray) everyday of tge week and twice on Sunday.

Toney vs McCallum was one of the most technically gifted fights ever. I am just sad tgat it was not 15 rounds instead of 12 rounds of pure mastery. Those two beat that Fading Marvelous and Sugar Ray of that night of April '87.

Marvelous that night was so off that he was missing shots for missing shots. He is not that type of fighter in his prime. He was completely off and for many, he still won the fight.

Name me 20 middleweight boxers better than Toney? The guy was an incredible fighter. A complete fighter.

[gilgamesh]

Other people are picking Leonard too. Quote one of those guys, and quit bothering me. Start a thread about all time greatest Middleweights or something.

Toney may well come in at the tail end around 19 or 20, but he's not one of the very best.

Hagler on the other hand is Top 5 hands down, and Leonard beat him...officially anyway. I had it a draw personally, but nevertheless it was a great performance for Leonard after a long stint of inactivity.