Was Corn Griffin an actual contender?
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jujigatame
- Heavyweight
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Was Corn Griffin an actual contender?
I'm watching Cinderella Man, and I'm seeing they're saying that Corn Griffin was a top contender at the time when Braddock fought him, but his BoxRec record says he was a fairly unimpressive 7-3-1 at the time. Was this guy a real contender or was this some embellishment by the film?
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AndreWardFan2006
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
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The movie said he was ranked #2 in the world.
I think in ways he probably was, the 30's was a pitiful division, with more pugs and ham and eggers than actual fighters---all it really took then was a KO or a win over a "name" to put yourself on the map. Also, was the depression, and I doubt if boxing was the first thing on everybody's mind, so the whole sport probably suffered for it.
If anything at all...I believe maybe the movie made him sound like he was that great, because he was a sparring partner for Primo Carnera, and word leaked out that Griffin "danced rings" around the champion.
Almost similar to when Tyson was dropped by Greg Page in sparring when preparing for Douglas or when Muhammas Ali was hit with three hard hooks by Tony Doyle, when preparing for Joe Bugner.
I think in ways he probably was, the 30's was a pitiful division, with more pugs and ham and eggers than actual fighters---all it really took then was a KO or a win over a "name" to put yourself on the map. Also, was the depression, and I doubt if boxing was the first thing on everybody's mind, so the whole sport probably suffered for it.
If anything at all...I believe maybe the movie made him sound like he was that great, because he was a sparring partner for Primo Carnera, and word leaked out that Griffin "danced rings" around the champion.
Almost similar to when Tyson was dropped by Greg Page in sparring when preparing for Douglas or when Muhammas Ali was hit with three hard hooks by Tony Doyle, when preparing for Joe Bugner.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
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that couldnt be further from the truth........the 30s was a very good era.......I think in ways he probably was, the 30's was a pitiful division, with more pugs and ham and eggers than actual fighters
1930s had
joe louis
max baer
max schmeling
jack sharkey
primo carnera
james braddock
jack trammell
leroy haynes
eddie blunt
tiger jack fox
roscoe toles
larry gains
old george godfrey
obie walker
unknown winston
al walker
tony galento
abe simon
buddy baer
tommy farr
lou nova
bob pastor
john henry lewis
seal harris
willie reddish
ernie schaff
pauolino uzcuden
tommy loughran
young stribling
art laskey
nathan mann
arturo godoy
otis thomas
this is an awesome list of solid depth!!!!
Last edited by BrocktonBlockbuster49 on 04 Jul 2006, 21:04, edited 1 time in total.
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kick asner
- Heavyweight
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Sparring is not a totally acurate indication of what would happen if the same two fighters met in an official match. A fighter who looks to make the most out of a sparring session would spend the time working on different moves, honing skills, and trying to improve on weaknesses rather than just trying to inflict an opponent with a beating.
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kick asner
- Heavyweight
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re
Griffin's record may be missing a few bouts, but I would say that it is pretty complete. As to Griffin being a real contender there was quite a bit of hype behind him, which I think was due in large part to a good promotional team and a good manager that could really spread the ballyhoo. He had a couple of decent wins prior to his bout with Braddock when he beat Battling Bozo and George Manley, but other than that Griffin had no success. I have a list that will tell the highest that Griffin was ever ranked, but I’ll have to find it and although he may have somehow been given a number 2 rating at heavyweight, but I seriously doubt it…he was top ten though…somehow!!!
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kick asner
- Heavyweight
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Re: 1930s Heavies
In regards to the list of 1930s heavies, you could add
both Lee Ramage and Maxie Rosenbloom to it.
Yes, Rosenbloom was a light-heavie, but he fought
a number of heavies.
- Chuck Johnston
both Lee Ramage and Maxie Rosenbloom to it.
Yes, Rosenbloom was a light-heavie, but he fought
a number of heavies.
- Chuck Johnston
....i checked the ring magazine annual ratings for the thirties and corn griffin's name doesn't appear in the top ten. these ratings are from a ring record book, which just show the ratings for one decade at a time...so it's possible that griffin could have shown up for a month or so and then vanished before the annual ratings were listed...but that seems doubtful.
braddock first appears at #14 in 1927...as a lightyheavy....in 1928 he's #1 in that division...then disappears until 1935...as heavyweight champion of the world. again, these are just once a year ratings..so he must have been rated SOMEWHERE in the heavies before he beat baer.
if anybody wants the top ten list of heavies for 1934 i'll post them here...but i'm too lazy to do it if no one asks.
braddock first appears at #14 in 1927...as a lightyheavy....in 1928 he's #1 in that division...then disappears until 1935...as heavyweight champion of the world. again, these are just once a year ratings..so he must have been rated SOMEWHERE in the heavies before he beat baer.
if anybody wants the top ten list of heavies for 1934 i'll post them here...but i'm too lazy to do it if no one asks.
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dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
Griffin was never close to being #2 in the world. The movie embellishes things for dramatic value.
As for the 1930s HW division, it was actually being damn solid. A major reason you saw so much inconsistency (as well as in other divisions at the time) was that it was the Great Depression Unless you were basically one of the top 3 in your division, you were making money fight by fight. Many fighters took fights on short notice and without preparation, or while they were ill or injured. Far from the 5 different trainer, 8-12 weeks of preparation top guys have today.
As for the 1930s HW division, it was actually being damn solid. A major reason you saw so much inconsistency (as well as in other divisions at the time) was that it was the Great Depression Unless you were basically one of the top 3 in your division, you were making money fight by fight. Many fighters took fights on short notice and without preparation, or while they were ill or injured. Far from the 5 different trainer, 8-12 weeks of preparation top guys have today.
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The Great John L
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight
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Thanks for the correction. I’m sure Big Ross and all his fans will rest easier, as will those of Corn Griffith, errr Griffin, and Max Baer.Decagon wrote:I noticed that a split second after I pressed the "Submit" button, and I was too lazy to change it. Let's agree, from now on, to correct each other on the spelling of fighters' names. Last week, on this topic (bottom of page 2),
http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=541742
you misspelled "Ross Puritty." I didn't want to say anything, but since we're correcting each other's spelling from now on, I thought the input might help.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
re
>>>If a guy making his pro debut could beat Max Baer???
Jesus, I thought we cleared this nonsense up and squashed it the last 500 times you said it…I know you dodged out and ran from the last thread on this issue after many relevant facts were brought out to counter!!!
http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... ht=#524371
For a change, why don't you actually try to learn something about it instead of continuing to make this bogus, dumbass statement over and over and over…it’s about the most meaningless and clueless remark that I have ever heard and it seems to be one of your favorites, so how about shocking us all and try to learn something about boxing during that era?
Jesus, I thought we cleared this nonsense up and squashed it the last 500 times you said it…I know you dodged out and ran from the last thread on this issue after many relevant facts were brought out to counter!!!
http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... ht=#524371
For a change, why don't you actually try to learn something about it instead of continuing to make this bogus, dumbass statement over and over and over…it’s about the most meaningless and clueless remark that I have ever heard and it seems to be one of your favorites, so how about shocking us all and try to learn something about boxing during that era?
re
As I stated in the last thread where you made the claim, but seemed to ignore, or run from...is now listed below, which you should really read because you sure haven't done any other kind of reading on the topic other than ther article that you mention, which where is that article...I would be interested in reading it, so please, don't run from, or ignore this thread!:
>>>And I have yet to see any actual proof to even back the claim. Someone said that Mike DeLisa stated that it was correct, and I know that Mike entered that bout into the database, but that is all I have ever heard and I have never seen any actual proof from Dec, and though I have nothing but respect for Mike, I have read several different newspaper accounts of the fight, which I will gladly send to anyone that might think different, that state that it was Buddy Baer who fought Art Oliver, the fighter that Decagon keeps claiming, and the reports state that Buddy knocked Oliver out...so the claim does not hold much weight unless there is some actual proof to back it up, which has not been presented! The Chicago Times states that Oliver beat Baer a wekk after the bout happened, but they did not have anyone covering the fight, nor did they run the day after account of the fight, so that account is bogus compared to day after reports that state Buddy Baer knocked out Oliver!
But then again...anyone who thinks that Valuev is, or should be considered along with Baer, well they have a lot of learning to do, but then again that's something that I do not have to tell anyone!
Also, for the record, Art Oliver was the American Olympic Golden Gloves Champion as an Amateur, so even if the various newspaper reports that I have read are incorrect and the claim does turn out to be true, it's not like Oliver was some fat heavyweight of today, who had no experience at all!
And lets also bring to light this fact, that if it turns out to be true, which as has been said by me is very questionable, Max Baer was currently right in the middle of a barnstorming tour across North America where he was fighting in a new city almost every other day. To say that he had every right to have an off night would be an understatement considering that he had traveled 1000s of miles the previous four months before the fight in question, but if you want to still look at it like he lost to some clueless, non-experienced fighter making his pro debut, well that’s your right to do, but don't be surprised, or act offended when people say your completely full of shit about it!
I’d like to have gotten this all in one post, but things keep coming to me and I’d really like to shut this ridiculous claim down, or at least present it for exactly what it was…which it is nothing really, certainly nothing to hinder Baer’s place in history and certainly not the outrageous loss that Decagon continues to try to make it out to be!
So also, along with the other truths I have presented, not only was Baer's record, for the less than five total months of 1936 that he fought, 24-1-0 (17 KO), but he also fought several exhibitions and all of this occurred after June 15, 1936! Baer was fighting a regulation bout, or an exhibition bout nearly ever day during the less than four months that he fought in 1936 before the “supposed” Oliver bout. Would a loss to a young, hungry golden gloves fighter looking to make a name for himself be such a surprise with that kind of travel schedule? I don't know what you guys think, but if the claim does turn out to be true, which is still not certain...well I think that it is not only excusable that he lost the bout, but a very likely outcome for any fighter that would have undertook a schedule like that in such a short amount of time and the fact that he only lost once is pretty remarkable.
Think about it…in less than four months he fought a total of anywhere from 50 to 100 bouts, including exhibitions. In those three months leading up to the bout with Oliver, if in fact he did fight Oliver, Baer’s travel log looked something like this…Salt Lake City, UT, Boise, ID, Pocatello, ID, Tyler, TX, San Antonio, TX, Dallas, TX, Oklahoma City, OK, Tulsa, OK, Ada, OK, Ogden, UT, Vancouver, BC, Canada Marshfield, OR, Portland, OR, Lewiston, ID, Coeur d'Alene, ID, Twin Falls, ID, Provo, UT, Casper, WY, Des Moines, IA, Sheldon, IA, Rock Springs, WY, Keokuk, IA, Evansville, IL; and this is not including all the locales for the exhibition bouts he had! So what do you guys think…if the bout actually did happen, is it something that should in any way tarnish the career of Baer? I certainly say no way in hell…what do you think?
Oh yeah…to answer the question…Jaclem hit it right…it wouldn’t be a question of how many times could Baer knock Valuev down, but instead…how many times could Valuev get up? I would say two to four, and that’s being generous…even if Baer lost to a golden gloves champion making his pro debut!
I sent Mike an email to see what his source for the bout is. He had to go out of the country, so it might be a few days before he responds, but well get to the bottom of it, but as I said before...it doesn't make a difference if Baer did lose the fight...it is of no consequence to Baer's standing!
Mike said that he got the result from local reports and also that he thought Ring covered it as well, so I will agree that Baer lost to Oliver making his pro debut, but as I spoke plenty about earlier, it certainly does not matter as Oliver was not only a very accomplished amateur heavyweight, but also Baer, due to the hectic schedule of fighting almost ever day for the three months leading up to the bout, he is granted an off night...the Oliver loss has no bearing whatsoever on Baer's career, or his standing in history!<<<
>>>And I have yet to see any actual proof to even back the claim. Someone said that Mike DeLisa stated that it was correct, and I know that Mike entered that bout into the database, but that is all I have ever heard and I have never seen any actual proof from Dec, and though I have nothing but respect for Mike, I have read several different newspaper accounts of the fight, which I will gladly send to anyone that might think different, that state that it was Buddy Baer who fought Art Oliver, the fighter that Decagon keeps claiming, and the reports state that Buddy knocked Oliver out...so the claim does not hold much weight unless there is some actual proof to back it up, which has not been presented! The Chicago Times states that Oliver beat Baer a wekk after the bout happened, but they did not have anyone covering the fight, nor did they run the day after account of the fight, so that account is bogus compared to day after reports that state Buddy Baer knocked out Oliver!
But then again...anyone who thinks that Valuev is, or should be considered along with Baer, well they have a lot of learning to do, but then again that's something that I do not have to tell anyone!
Also, for the record, Art Oliver was the American Olympic Golden Gloves Champion as an Amateur, so even if the various newspaper reports that I have read are incorrect and the claim does turn out to be true, it's not like Oliver was some fat heavyweight of today, who had no experience at all!
And lets also bring to light this fact, that if it turns out to be true, which as has been said by me is very questionable, Max Baer was currently right in the middle of a barnstorming tour across North America where he was fighting in a new city almost every other day. To say that he had every right to have an off night would be an understatement considering that he had traveled 1000s of miles the previous four months before the fight in question, but if you want to still look at it like he lost to some clueless, non-experienced fighter making his pro debut, well that’s your right to do, but don't be surprised, or act offended when people say your completely full of shit about it!
I’d like to have gotten this all in one post, but things keep coming to me and I’d really like to shut this ridiculous claim down, or at least present it for exactly what it was…which it is nothing really, certainly nothing to hinder Baer’s place in history and certainly not the outrageous loss that Decagon continues to try to make it out to be!
So also, along with the other truths I have presented, not only was Baer's record, for the less than five total months of 1936 that he fought, 24-1-0 (17 KO), but he also fought several exhibitions and all of this occurred after June 15, 1936! Baer was fighting a regulation bout, or an exhibition bout nearly ever day during the less than four months that he fought in 1936 before the “supposed” Oliver bout. Would a loss to a young, hungry golden gloves fighter looking to make a name for himself be such a surprise with that kind of travel schedule? I don't know what you guys think, but if the claim does turn out to be true, which is still not certain...well I think that it is not only excusable that he lost the bout, but a very likely outcome for any fighter that would have undertook a schedule like that in such a short amount of time and the fact that he only lost once is pretty remarkable.
Think about it…in less than four months he fought a total of anywhere from 50 to 100 bouts, including exhibitions. In those three months leading up to the bout with Oliver, if in fact he did fight Oliver, Baer’s travel log looked something like this…Salt Lake City, UT, Boise, ID, Pocatello, ID, Tyler, TX, San Antonio, TX, Dallas, TX, Oklahoma City, OK, Tulsa, OK, Ada, OK, Ogden, UT, Vancouver, BC, Canada Marshfield, OR, Portland, OR, Lewiston, ID, Coeur d'Alene, ID, Twin Falls, ID, Provo, UT, Casper, WY, Des Moines, IA, Sheldon, IA, Rock Springs, WY, Keokuk, IA, Evansville, IL; and this is not including all the locales for the exhibition bouts he had! So what do you guys think…if the bout actually did happen, is it something that should in any way tarnish the career of Baer? I certainly say no way in hell…what do you think?
Oh yeah…to answer the question…Jaclem hit it right…it wouldn’t be a question of how many times could Baer knock Valuev down, but instead…how many times could Valuev get up? I would say two to four, and that’s being generous…even if Baer lost to a golden gloves champion making his pro debut!
I sent Mike an email to see what his source for the bout is. He had to go out of the country, so it might be a few days before he responds, but well get to the bottom of it, but as I said before...it doesn't make a difference if Baer did lose the fight...it is of no consequence to Baer's standing!
Mike said that he got the result from local reports and also that he thought Ring covered it as well, so I will agree that Baer lost to Oliver making his pro debut, but as I spoke plenty about earlier, it certainly does not matter as Oliver was not only a very accomplished amateur heavyweight, but also Baer, due to the hectic schedule of fighting almost ever day for the three months leading up to the bout, he is granted an off night...the Oliver loss has no bearing whatsoever on Baer's career, or his standing in history!<<<