Ratings - please read before commenting - Archived

[computerrank]

This Saturday, Dec. 12th
Chris Colbert vs. Jaime Arboleda
A "4-star" fighter against a "3½ star" fighter
Listed as a "no-star" fight

[JCS]

Strange rating movement in Ricardo Lopez's record...

Code: Select all

10/25/1990	104	93.8		Hideyuki Ohashi
6/29/1990	106	6.579		Francisco Montiel
3/15/1990	103	67.53		Jorge Rivera

[computerrank]

Strange rating movement in Ricardo Lopez's record...

Code: Select all

10/25/1990	104	93.8		Hideyuki Ohashi
6/29/1990	106	6.579		Francisco Montiel
3/15/1990	103	67.53		Jorge Rivera

Ratings in bouts not assigned to a division are base ratings, They are not converted to a division.
Ratings in bouts assigned to a division are converted to a division my multiplying with a factor. Between 1.0 for Heavyweight and 11.9 for Minimumweight.

[JCS]

Strange rating movement in Ricardo Lopez's record...

Code: Select all

10/25/1990	104	93.8		Hideyuki Ohashi
6/29/1990	106	6.579		Francisco Montiel
3/15/1990	103	67.53		Jorge Rivera

Ratings in bouts not assigned to a division are base ratings, They are not converted to a division.
Ratings in bouts assigned to a division are converted to a division my multiplying with a factor. Between 1.0 for Heavyweight and 11.9 for Minimumweight.

That's ugly :)

Can't you assign to a division based on weigh-in weights?

[computerrank]

Strange rating movement in Ricardo Lopez's record...

Code: Select all

10/25/1990	104	93.8		Hideyuki Ohashi
6/29/1990	106	6.579		Francisco Montiel
3/15/1990	103	67.53		Jorge Rivera

Ratings in bouts not assigned to a division are base ratings, They are not converted to a division.
Ratings in bouts assigned to a division are converted to a division my multiplying with a factor. Between 1.0 for Heavyweight and 11.9 for Minimumweight.

That's ugly :)

Can't you assign to a division based on weigh-in weights?

I could avoid that problem, when I just showed the base ratings there anyway.

[computerrank]

Ratings in bouts not assigned to a division are base ratings, They are not converted to a division.
Ratings in bouts assigned to a division are converted to a division my multiplying with a factor. Between 1.0 for Heavyweight and 11.9 for Minimumweight.

That's ugly :)

Can't you assign to a division based on weigh-in weights?

I could avoid that problem, if I would just show the base ratings there anyway.

[computerrank]

This Saturday, Dec. 19th
Saul Alvarez vs. Callum Smith
#1 P4P vs. #13 P4P
Listed as a "no-star" fight

For me it is listed as 5-star bout.

[mike1989]

Why did not the current point of Enthony Joshua fall after the fight with Kubrat Pulev ??? Eroll Spence's rating dropped after the fight with Denny Garcia, and the fight was 5 stars and not 4 stars ???

[mike1989]

How is the current point of endi ruis mla on the moment of the fight with joeff parker was 162 point in 2016 when Thor Hamerr was the best opponent in 2013, 7.2 point ??? as ???

[computerrank]

How is the current point of endi ruis mla on the moment of the fight with joeff parker was 162 point in 2016 when Thor Hamerr was the best opponent in 2013, 7.2 point ??? as ???

It is the backwards influence of his LATER success. Without the win against Joshua his rating at time of the Parker bout would have been only 81 points. And without his MD against Parker the rating at Parker bout would have been only 55 points.

[computerrank]

Why did not the current point of Enthony Joshua fall after the fight with Kubrat Pulev ??? Eroll Spence's rating dropped after the fight with Denny Garcia, and the fight was 5 stars and not 4 stars ???

The current ratings do NOT depend only on the current bout, but also on all bouts before. So a boxer may need a stronger result to keep his rating, while another boxers may keep his rating with a a lower level result.

[Offthehook]

After noticing there’s a few cruseirweights and heavyweights missing from the rosters, I’m
Literally begging boxrec doesn’t start doing bridgerweight class. There’s like 40 people in the division meaning if you’re. 1.5 star at crustier you’re suddenly a 3 star guy at bridger. It’s sidestepping legitimacy IMO, and people who don’t make the top domestic 10 will suddenly leap into a higher ranking fighting in a weight class that technically all cruisers and heavies can dip in and out of. Hope this isn’t the case

[computerrank]

After noticing there’s a few cruseirweights and heavyweights missing from the rosters, I’m
Literally begging boxrec doesn’t start doing bridgerweight class. There’s like 40 people in the division meaning if you’re. 1.5 star at crustier you’re suddenly a 3 star guy at bridger. It’s sidestepping legitimacy IMO, and people who don’t make the top domestic 10 will suddenly leap into a higher ranking fighting in a weight class that technically all cruisers and heavies can dip in and out of. Hope this isn’t the case

Only WBC uses that weight division now. Boxrec only uses the established weight divisions.

[Offthehook]

After noticing there’s a few cruseirweights and heavyweights missing from the rosters, I’m
Literally begging boxrec doesn’t start doing bridgerweight class. There’s like 40 people in the division meaning if you’re. 1.5 star at crustier you’re suddenly a 3 star guy at bridger. It’s sidestepping legitimacy IMO, and people who don’t make the top domestic 10 will suddenly leap into a higher ranking fighting in a weight class that technically all cruisers and heavies can dip in and out of. Hope this isn’t the case

Only WBC uses that weight division now. Boxrec only uses the established weight divisions.

Excellent news Martin. Hope you enjoyed your Christmas (as much as anyone can under the circumstances) and have a good new year.

[Nile4000]

I have to say, even I'm a bit confused by what is displayed in the rankings versus fighter pages... the movement, etc. And I have my own rating system for MMA, so that says a lot.

For instance, I saw Casimero drop from #2 to #5 this weekend after a KO win. Was he somehow spotted some points, but then reduced after fighting a much lesser rated opponent? Did he just happen to get another penalty on the same date? I don't know.

Why do almost all boxer's current ratings seem far lower than in previous fights? Has Covid reduced activity to the point where it affects the entire landscape? Is WHR so dependent on "future" results that this is somehow treated as missing data.. and therefore, missing points? Is this a glitch in how past points are displayed?

It must be a major headache to go over the same set of questions week after week... but the WHR-based implementation is enough for folks to get a handle on, let alone all of the ancillary things. To understand WHR from a basic standpoint requires some brain power. To understand the intricacies of it, involves knowledge of some pretty advanced math... and then on top of it, all the BoxRec-specific mods. Yikes.

People would be much better off looking at the ranking pages... rather than to try and build fight-by-fight cases for fighters.

not very obvious, I fear ...
All depends on all ... time and opponents ...

The last Boxrec bout ratings and the Boxrec current ratings are tentatively lower than the the bout ratings before, even for a boxer at his best. This is due to the fact, that the current rating is combined with more uncertainty (due to missing affirmative future results) than former results, Boxrec for this reason does not use the full WHR rating, but it uses the full WHR rating deminished by the estimated mean uncertainty.

I think the 50% point drop for 18 months of inactivity is too harsh and doesn't reflect common sense. Was Ray Leonard half-strength when he fought Howard, and quarter-strength vs Hagler? Absolutely not! A 25% or even 50% SRL has no shot against Hagler; maybe Ray was 70-80%. Was Thurman 50% when he fought Lopez? No, and had Keith's points not been shaved, the fight vs Pacquiao would've reflected an even fight than a gross mismatch. Some may say, these are anecdotes using elites and not applicable to everyone. Well, that's the point: the greats take their craft seriously and should be the example. Look at Julio Chavez Jr. He takes a vacation and loses 7 points, then more time off and -1 point; compare that to the 300+ losses by elites which defies reality.
* Therefore, the 50% penalty should be significantly trimmed to 10-20%, or replaced with a fixed point deduction (100-200) with a cap.

Ray definitely was not full strength vs Howard.

[ZigggZagggg]

After noticing there’s a few cruseirweights and heavyweights missing from the rosters, I’m
Literally begging boxrec doesn’t start doing bridgerweight class. There’s like 40 people in the division meaning if you’re. 1.5 star at crustier you’re suddenly a 3 star guy at bridger. It’s sidestepping legitimacy IMO, and people who don’t make the top domestic 10 will suddenly leap into a higher ranking fighting in a weight class that technically all cruisers and heavies can dip in and out of. Hope this isn’t the case

Only WBC uses that weight division now. Boxrec only uses the established weight divisions.

When Boxrec only uses established weight class divisions, and no one fought yet officially in the Bridger division, why are all the Boxers from the WBC unranked (there is no ranking, even if the last fight is only a few months ago)?

i totally agree to use only the established divisions. But have no rating for all the Bridger weights is not OK
Boxers, who change the division (other divisions than briger) are also still rated .
Also those boxers, who are in the the Bridger division still fight in the established ones (heavy or cruiser) for others than WBC.
So please rate them in their "normal" divisions.

[computerrank]

After noticing there’s a few cruseirweights and heavyweights missing from the rosters, I’m
Literally begging boxrec doesn’t start doing bridgerweight class. There’s like 40 people in the division meaning if you’re. 1.5 star at crustier you’re suddenly a 3 star guy at bridger. It’s sidestepping legitimacy IMO, and people who don’t make the top domestic 10 will suddenly leap into a higher ranking fighting in a weight class that technically all cruisers and heavies can dip in and out of. Hope this isn’t the case

Only WBC uses that weight division now. Boxrec only uses the established weight divisions.

When Boxrec only uses established weight class divisions, and no one fought yet officially in the Bridger division, why are all the Boxers from the WBC unranked (there is no ranking, even if the last fight is only a few months ago)?

i totally agree to use only the established divisions. But have no rating for all the Bridger weights is not OK
Boxers, who change the division (other divisions than briger) are also still rated .
Also those boxers, who are in the the Bridger division still fight in the established ones (heavy or cruiser) for others than WBC.
So please rate them in their "normal" divisions.

This is not an issue with the ratings formula - this is a question, to what division a boxer may be assigned or not.

Please rise your question here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=94835

[jujigatame]

Was there a recent release?

Taylor has slipped to #3 at 140 which is a little questionable.

[computerrank]

Was there a recent release?

Taylor has slipped to #3 at 140 which is a little questionable.

Only bug fixes. What change exactly did you notice and when, please?

[jujigatame]

Was there a recent release?

Taylor has slipped to #3 at 140 which is a little questionable.

Only bug fixes. What change exactly did you notice and when, please?

Sorry I couldn't tell you when it happened. But Josh Taylor was #2 behind Ramirez for a long time and then I checked and suddenly he's at #3 behind Zepeda as well. I'm fairly confident it was within the last several weeks.

I'm pretty sure Taylor has dropped from #1 to #3 in the last 3-4 months.

[computerrank]

Was there a recent release?

Taylor has slipped to #3 at 140 which is a little questionable.

Only bug fixes. What change exactly did you notice and when, please?

Sorry I couldn't tell you when it happened. But Josh Taylor was #2 behind Ramirez for a long time and then I checked and suddenly he's at #3 behind Zepeda as well. I'm fairly confident it was within the last several weeks.

I'm pretty sure Taylor has dropped from #1 to #3 in the last 3-4 months.

He dumped from #1 to #2 after his mismatch win against Khongsong, his only match after 15 months now. He further dropped to #3 after Zepeda overtook him with his win against Baranchyk.

[jujigatame]

I'm 99% sure that Zepeda did not overtake him after the Baranchyk fight. It was much more recent.

[computerrank]

I'm 99% sure that Zepeda did not overtake him after the Baranchyk fight. It was much more recent.

I in detail dropped the critical bouts in descending order and inspected the resulting ratings:

currently:
#1 Ramirez 221.9
#2 Zepeda 190.5
#3 Taylor 175.6
#4 Prograis 175.3

before Prograis TKO Heraldez:
#1 Ramirez 222.8
#2 Zepeda 190.9
#3 Taylor 190.2
#4 Prograis 178.7

before Zepeda KO Baranchyk:
#1 Ramirez 215.0
#2 Prograis 178.7
#3 Taylor 176.3
#5 Zepeda 90.0

before Taylor KO Khongsong:
#1 Taylor 287.7
#2 Ramirez 215.0
#3 Prograis 202.0
#4 Zepeda 90.0

[jujigatame]

That's very confusing.

First, I don't understand why Taylor seems to get what is effectively a massive penalty for KOing a scrub.

Second, you don't have to believe me because I know I don't have any evidence, but I am 99% certain that for a long time Taylor was #2 behind Ramirez, and this just changed in the last several weeks.

[JCS]

That's very confusing.

First, I don't understand why Taylor seems to get what is effectively a massive penalty for KOing a scrub.

Second, you don't have to believe me because I know I don't have any evidence, but I am 99% certain that for a long time Taylor was #2 behind Ramirez, and this just changed in the last several weeks.

For some reason I remember Taylor going straight from #1 to #3....

WHR is a strange system. Trying to make sense of the movement is futile. Though, for a purely analytical system, its methods may be the best foundation.

Before even learning of WHR, I ended up pushing a lot of similar ideas in my system, though the math isn't nearly as pure.

Most important qualities of a good rating system (and its creator).. aside from the obvious (they can read, write, implement it, etc):

1 - Quality data
2 - Knowledge of the sport
3 - Everything else

The strange movement, to me, is an indication that #2 needs more analysis... This is not an attempt to insult. But for the most part, boxing doesn't follow the BoxRec rating system, it is the opposite.... so considerations must be made for all of its nuances and shortcomings.

For instance, you can't wholesale dump on a boxer's rating for not having a quality win in 18 months. Had that boxer's career and sanctioning bodies honored BoxRec's rating system, you can bet they'd try harder to schedule that decent challenger within that window, rather than wait a week or two after the deadline... for example.