Fighting The Best When He Wasn't
There used to be a guy in the gym that told me he fooled around with boxing for awhile. Now this the weightlifter's gym Im referrng to not the boxing gym. The gym was in an alley and the owner who had the health food store up front wanted a gym so he converted the garage out back into a gym. it was made of wood and was falling apart and all the equipment he bought used but there were plenty of weights-heavy dumbells,an Olympic bar with lots of plates,some regular exercise bars, a lat machine with pulleys,a mirror,pictures of guys like Arnold and Sergio Oliva on the wall.A hundred watt light bulb dangling from a cord lit up the place. It was fantastic.Anyway I got to talking with this guy and he was telling mw he was from Boise,Idaho and he used to do some fighting.He was a biker dude and looked like a Angel but he wasn't.That was back when for a spell The Hells Angels kind of took over Ocean Beach. They did what they wanted and no one bothered them .They'd usually find a bar they liked and when they got tired of it they trashed the place-slice up the pool tables,break all the glasses,smash the windows,tear apart the juke box,and for good measure beat up some of the regulars. And like I said no one bothered them or they'd get their ass kicked. Anyway,one day this biker dude roared into the parking lot in the back on his big hog Harley,parked it,and came in for a workout. and got around to telling me telling that he fought George Logan.
He wasn't bragging about fighting George Logan.He didn't tell me if he won or lost and I didn't ask him. I don't think he knew that I knew anything about George Logan. All I knew was that George Logan had fought Ezzard Charles once.It might have been Charles' last fight.Now this biker dude didn't fight Ezzard Charles,at least he didn't say he did.,just George Logan.Logan fought Charles knocking him out. Logan was undefeated at the time.Charles had been fighting forever.Name any of the top light heavies and heavyweights of the 40's and 50's and Ezzard Charles was probably in there with them,and more than once.
Ezzard Charles had that Lou Gehrigs disease and it was slowly eating him up while he was still fighting at the end.You can't tell me boxing wouldn't have been a theme for one of Willie The Shakes tragedies.A tragedy is when you get to the top and then fall to the bottom. A Shakespearean tragedy is when someone like a king then begins his descent to the ash heap.Someone like Ezzard Charles who was one of the greatest fighters ever to put on the gloves loses his way to Boise,Idaho to fight a guy named George Logan at some county fair.And of course in the end they die. Only difference was with Charles he was already dying.
Ezzard Charles
Classic American West Coast Boxing
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dagosd2000
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
You're Just Better Off Asking The Librarian
Well,I was waiting for one of you guys to come up with his name in that "Dead Guy Autobiography" thread(interesting topic) so I'll jump in. Don Jordan,ex welterweight champion,has a story Budd Shulberg couldn't even invent if he strained his brain.I remember Jordan winning the title from the heavily favored Virgil Atkins at The Olympic Auditorium in 1958. He wasn't supposed to do that but he was connected with some unsavory sorts that had peculiar names like "Gray" and ":Blinky" who were there to assist,and get their "cut." Jordan had linked himself with Don Nesseth who became his manager and he was out to do anything not short of breaking the law to get his charge a title fight.Nesseth approached Jackie Leonard,matchmaker at the Hollywood Legion Stadium to make some "overtures" to Truman Gibson the front man for the IBU ,and the next thing you know everyone is swimming with the bottom feeders in Long Beach Harbor. All "involved" in Jordan's rise to the top wanted their sleazy piece of the pie and when certain individuals didn't feel they swallowed enough there were the usual breaking of the legs. Don Jordan's mix with boxing's underworld eventually landed those guys with the eerie names in the pen.
However,Don Jordan was in no mood for redemption. A few weeks after beating Atkins he's busted for possessing marijuana and begins keeping company with Mickey Cohen.Bottom line with Jordan-he was own worst enemy. Jackie McCoy and Eddie Futch two of the sharpest trainers in the business tried to calm him down and teach him what they knew about the Sweet Science,but Donny Boy fought them tooth and nail all the way. Jordan drank like a fish and smoked Marlboros like a chimney.I recall Jackie McCoy telling Jim Healy on his local TV sports show that Jordan would be puffing away in the dressing room before coming out to do battle.It was a continuous struggle for him to weigh in at 147 pounds. You never knew what to expect from the guy.He'd beat some good fighters.Lose to some good fighters and he was on the short end to a lot of bums. At the end he couldn't beat the common cold. His last fight against Battling Torres he was DQ'd because Torres threw a punch that instead of landing on Jordan swatted a fly.Jordan went to the canvas and stayed there. He didn't want any more to do with professional fighting after that.
Don Jordan claimed to be one of 20 or so kids in his family.He said he lost count after 20. He was half Mexican and part Indian and had black blood flowing through his veins.HIs behavior was a definition for the word "bizarre.' He once faced an assault charge with a deadly weapon.The weapon-a bow and arrow.His target-a couple of dames who he felt gave him the cold shoulder.He told everyone that he was a hired hit man for the mob in the Dominican Republic. He claimed 30 notches on his gun.
His first title defense after beating Atkins in a rematch was against Denny Moyer. Moyer was undefeated with that baby face of his and cutesy boxing style. They put the match together in Moyer's hometown Portland Oregon.I remember watching the fight on TV. I was fast asleep by thy the 10th round. Moyer lost for the first time in his career even though there was a lot of money bet on him,but it wasn't the "right" dough. I used to bend elbows with Moyer in San Diego. Him and his stablemate Ronnie Wilson .We'd bounce around the local dives around the Coliseum . I once heard Moyer say he had a case of the "nerves" for that fight with Jorden. I never asked Moyer about his fights.Only which bar to you want to go next. But I got to thinking maybe it was Mr, Gray who was behind the scenes putting that fight together and caused Denny to get weak in the knees.
Jordan lost the title to Benny Paret in Las Vegas as Benny danced a mambo around Jordan for 15 rounds.it was the first championship fight in the gambling city if you trivia buffs want to know if interested. But by that time all the bottom feeders were receiving subpoenas and Jordan was by himself. Being by himself was not a good position for Mr. Self Destruction to be in. After the Torres debacle Jordan went from job to job doing grunt labor. Coming out of a bar in the longshoreman Mecca of Wilmington near Long Beach Harbor he was beaten and robbed and was taken to a hospital.He remained in a coma for five months until he died.
My good buddy Brian Higgins once asked me about Jordan's claim to having whacked 30 or so dudes for the mob. All I can say is that button men don't go around boasting about the heads they have hanging on the wall in the den .That would come back on them in a hurry.
So there's my dead candidate to write his Auto/Bio. But if you're to go look for it in the library it might be in the "fiction" section.You're just better off to ask the librarian first.
Don Jordan
Well,I was waiting for one of you guys to come up with his name in that "Dead Guy Autobiography" thread(interesting topic) so I'll jump in. Don Jordan,ex welterweight champion,has a story Budd Shulberg couldn't even invent if he strained his brain.I remember Jordan winning the title from the heavily favored Virgil Atkins at The Olympic Auditorium in 1958. He wasn't supposed to do that but he was connected with some unsavory sorts that had peculiar names like "Gray" and ":Blinky" who were there to assist,and get their "cut." Jordan had linked himself with Don Nesseth who became his manager and he was out to do anything not short of breaking the law to get his charge a title fight.Nesseth approached Jackie Leonard,matchmaker at the Hollywood Legion Stadium to make some "overtures" to Truman Gibson the front man for the IBU ,and the next thing you know everyone is swimming with the bottom feeders in Long Beach Harbor. All "involved" in Jordan's rise to the top wanted their sleazy piece of the pie and when certain individuals didn't feel they swallowed enough there were the usual breaking of the legs. Don Jordan's mix with boxing's underworld eventually landed those guys with the eerie names in the pen.
However,Don Jordan was in no mood for redemption. A few weeks after beating Atkins he's busted for possessing marijuana and begins keeping company with Mickey Cohen.Bottom line with Jordan-he was own worst enemy. Jackie McCoy and Eddie Futch two of the sharpest trainers in the business tried to calm him down and teach him what they knew about the Sweet Science,but Donny Boy fought them tooth and nail all the way. Jordan drank like a fish and smoked Marlboros like a chimney.I recall Jackie McCoy telling Jim Healy on his local TV sports show that Jordan would be puffing away in the dressing room before coming out to do battle.It was a continuous struggle for him to weigh in at 147 pounds. You never knew what to expect from the guy.He'd beat some good fighters.Lose to some good fighters and he was on the short end to a lot of bums. At the end he couldn't beat the common cold. His last fight against Battling Torres he was DQ'd because Torres threw a punch that instead of landing on Jordan swatted a fly.Jordan went to the canvas and stayed there. He didn't want any more to do with professional fighting after that.
Don Jordan claimed to be one of 20 or so kids in his family.He said he lost count after 20. He was half Mexican and part Indian and had black blood flowing through his veins.HIs behavior was a definition for the word "bizarre.' He once faced an assault charge with a deadly weapon.The weapon-a bow and arrow.His target-a couple of dames who he felt gave him the cold shoulder.He told everyone that he was a hired hit man for the mob in the Dominican Republic. He claimed 30 notches on his gun.
His first title defense after beating Atkins in a rematch was against Denny Moyer. Moyer was undefeated with that baby face of his and cutesy boxing style. They put the match together in Moyer's hometown Portland Oregon.I remember watching the fight on TV. I was fast asleep by thy the 10th round. Moyer lost for the first time in his career even though there was a lot of money bet on him,but it wasn't the "right" dough. I used to bend elbows with Moyer in San Diego. Him and his stablemate Ronnie Wilson .We'd bounce around the local dives around the Coliseum . I once heard Moyer say he had a case of the "nerves" for that fight with Jorden. I never asked Moyer about his fights.Only which bar to you want to go next. But I got to thinking maybe it was Mr, Gray who was behind the scenes putting that fight together and caused Denny to get weak in the knees.
Jordan lost the title to Benny Paret in Las Vegas as Benny danced a mambo around Jordan for 15 rounds.it was the first championship fight in the gambling city if you trivia buffs want to know if interested. But by that time all the bottom feeders were receiving subpoenas and Jordan was by himself. Being by himself was not a good position for Mr. Self Destruction to be in. After the Torres debacle Jordan went from job to job doing grunt labor. Coming out of a bar in the longshoreman Mecca of Wilmington near Long Beach Harbor he was beaten and robbed and was taken to a hospital.He remained in a coma for five months until he died.
My good buddy Brian Higgins once asked me about Jordan's claim to having whacked 30 or so dudes for the mob. All I can say is that button men don't go around boasting about the heads they have hanging on the wall in the den .That would come back on them in a hurry.
So there's my dead candidate to write his Auto/Bio. But if you're to go look for it in the library it might be in the "fiction" section.You're just better off to ask the librarian first.
Don Jordan
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
A friend of mine knew Jordan well; he told me Jordan spoke fluent Spanish. When I read Jordan's claim that French is the language spoken in the Dominican Republic it set off a B.S. alarm for me.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Goose
You're absolutely right. Jordan spoke fluent Spanish that was taught to him by his mother.When he began hitting the skids he had quite a few fights in Mexico where he was received quite well.The Dominican Republic's neighbor,Haiti,is where French is spoken. Around ten years ago Brasil kicked out many of the Haitian refugees that came from Haiti after some devastating hurricanes.It was a matter of economics that they were told to go. Many of those Haitians found their way to Tijuana hoping to find asylum in the U.S. Most of them were turned down.At first they were homeless and lived in the streets in TJ.They stayed together and helped each other out. They made the most of it and conformed to Mexico's rules.They found jobs and didn't break the law. Many of then became Mexican citizens and now you see them intermarrying.They never asked for a handout and didn't complain.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Don't Get Pushed Around Much Anymore
My take was that boxing heading into the 1920's was becoming more of a game relying on technique than a slugfest. Fighters were holding their hands higher,using footwork to their advantage,relying on a good jab,countering more, and replying with combinations. Fighters were thinking more.The crudeness was wearing off.Feignting and looking for spots to land their blows was part of becoming a good fighter. There was less clinching. The Ketchels were giving way to the Robinsons. But even before Sugar Ray graced the arenas there was a coterie of fighters in the lower weights that were putting their brains to work as much as their muscles. It began in New York with the Jewish fighters,and their guru was Benny Leonard.
At the turn of the century Harlem was the home for the Jewish families who had immigrated from Europe.They got pushed around a lot.Being new to America and having the onus of having to give the thumbs down to Pontus Pilate on behalf of JC in the Bible was something they had to face. Of course they needed a gym if the boys wanted to toughen up, and they had one:Grupp's Gymnasium located on the corner of 116th Street and Eighth Avenue in Harlem.Benny Leonard and his following of Leach Cross,Benny Valgar,Charlie Goldman,and Ray Arcel were a few of the familiar faces that would show up everyday.But there was a problem developing.Billy Grupp who owned the facility was an outspoken racist,especially aiming his insults a Jews. It's not like today if you say something anti-semetic you'll get in hot water. Back then the world put the Jews at the center of their bull's eyes.Of course that included blacks,but with the Jews it was more of what was gleaned in the Gospel.
Finally,the Jewish contingent had had enough of Grupp's slurs and they decided to workout at a new facilty in the neighborhood ,Marshall Stillman's Gym. The problem was at that time it was gym for the physical culturist,known today as bodybuilders.There was a fella',Lou Ingber,who ran the place and when he all these Jewish fighters streamimg through the doors,he started to think of switching gears.But first he either had to get Billy Grupp out of the way or open up his own sweat factory. He decided he'd find a rental and put his name on the door. However,he sill couldn't shake the name Stiillman from people's minds and when he opened up his gym they began calling Lou Ingber, Lou Stillman.The name stuck. The new gym was located on Eighth Avenue.After awhile he shifted spots and reopen to another locale on Eighth Avenue that was closer to the old Madison Square Garden. It was there that Lou Stillman molded his gym around Benny Leonard.Everyone inside the place and in New York was fascinated by what Leonard could o pull off inside a boxing ring.
Jewish fighters regardless where they headquartered were in awe of Leonard.There were the Attels from the Bay Area.Barney Ross from Chicago.Some anglocized their names.Leonard was one .He was born Benjamin Leiner.Mushy Callahan's real name was Vincent Sheer.Ross's real last name was Rasofsky.
Lou Stillman closed his gym in 1960. TV he said was the culprit. He also added that kids didn't want to be fighters.They went out for the team sports in school and then went to college to be doctors and lawyers.The amount of customers were dwindling day by day.
You think back to 1960 and sometimes you think it wasn't so bad.In the Southland there was resurgence.But that was because the Mexican fighters,Chicano and nationals,were kicking up a storm.Today,you don't see many white fighters unless you fly across the pond.And Jewish fighters?Well, they're like the dinosaur. Extinct. Jewish kids today have parents that steer them towards college. They tell them,"If you don't want to get pushed around use your brains not your brawn."
Benny Leonard
My take was that boxing heading into the 1920's was becoming more of a game relying on technique than a slugfest. Fighters were holding their hands higher,using footwork to their advantage,relying on a good jab,countering more, and replying with combinations. Fighters were thinking more.The crudeness was wearing off.Feignting and looking for spots to land their blows was part of becoming a good fighter. There was less clinching. The Ketchels were giving way to the Robinsons. But even before Sugar Ray graced the arenas there was a coterie of fighters in the lower weights that were putting their brains to work as much as their muscles. It began in New York with the Jewish fighters,and their guru was Benny Leonard.
At the turn of the century Harlem was the home for the Jewish families who had immigrated from Europe.They got pushed around a lot.Being new to America and having the onus of having to give the thumbs down to Pontus Pilate on behalf of JC in the Bible was something they had to face. Of course they needed a gym if the boys wanted to toughen up, and they had one:Grupp's Gymnasium located on the corner of 116th Street and Eighth Avenue in Harlem.Benny Leonard and his following of Leach Cross,Benny Valgar,Charlie Goldman,and Ray Arcel were a few of the familiar faces that would show up everyday.But there was a problem developing.Billy Grupp who owned the facility was an outspoken racist,especially aiming his insults a Jews. It's not like today if you say something anti-semetic you'll get in hot water. Back then the world put the Jews at the center of their bull's eyes.Of course that included blacks,but with the Jews it was more of what was gleaned in the Gospel.
Finally,the Jewish contingent had had enough of Grupp's slurs and they decided to workout at a new facilty in the neighborhood ,Marshall Stillman's Gym. The problem was at that time it was gym for the physical culturist,known today as bodybuilders.There was a fella',Lou Ingber,who ran the place and when he all these Jewish fighters streamimg through the doors,he started to think of switching gears.But first he either had to get Billy Grupp out of the way or open up his own sweat factory. He decided he'd find a rental and put his name on the door. However,he sill couldn't shake the name Stiillman from people's minds and when he opened up his gym they began calling Lou Ingber, Lou Stillman.The name stuck. The new gym was located on Eighth Avenue.After awhile he shifted spots and reopen to another locale on Eighth Avenue that was closer to the old Madison Square Garden. It was there that Lou Stillman molded his gym around Benny Leonard.Everyone inside the place and in New York was fascinated by what Leonard could o pull off inside a boxing ring.
Jewish fighters regardless where they headquartered were in awe of Leonard.There were the Attels from the Bay Area.Barney Ross from Chicago.Some anglocized their names.Leonard was one .He was born Benjamin Leiner.Mushy Callahan's real name was Vincent Sheer.Ross's real last name was Rasofsky.
Lou Stillman closed his gym in 1960. TV he said was the culprit. He also added that kids didn't want to be fighters.They went out for the team sports in school and then went to college to be doctors and lawyers.The amount of customers were dwindling day by day.
You think back to 1960 and sometimes you think it wasn't so bad.In the Southland there was resurgence.But that was because the Mexican fighters,Chicano and nationals,were kicking up a storm.Today,you don't see many white fighters unless you fly across the pond.And Jewish fighters?Well, they're like the dinosaur. Extinct. Jewish kids today have parents that steer them towards college. They tell them,"If you don't want to get pushed around use your brains not your brawn."
Benny Leonard
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dagosd2000
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Keeping Company
A lot of guys like to be seen in the company of fighters because they think by hanging around a fighter it will make him synonymous with being a tough guy.Jack Ruby,the guy that knocked off Lee Harvey Oswald was a guy like that. Growing up in the Jewish part of Chicago around Maxwell Street you could usually find him palling around with Barney Ross. They were good friends.It wasn't like Ross thought of Ruby as a pest.They were "chavers" even though everyone knew that Ruby was also a little "meshuga."Ross was the "honest" tough guy of the Jewish quarter of the Windy City. He was a remarkable fighter. In my opinion ,the best "pure" boxer since Benny Leonard. When World War II ignited Ross enlisted in the Marine Corps,but almost didn't make it to any fighting front. Some DI called him a "kike" and Ross decided to make a comeback and flattened the guy. He was court marshalled but was acquitted of the the charges.A Jewish officer convinced the board that Ross wasn't at fault so he got a pass and they sent him off to Guadacanal.There in a battle he single handedly held off two dozen Japanese soldiers that ambushed his squad. Ross was the only man not wounded and fought them off all night killing every single one of them. He was awarded the Silver Star.
However, during that battle he was severely wounded to the point that he got hooked on morphine. He fought back and later overcame his addiction.When he returned to Maxwell Street he was (to steal the nickname of another Jewish fighter,Ruby Goldstein)"The Pride Of The Ghetto."Yeah,Jack Ruby wanted to get close to Barney Ross. But Ruby also had a penchant for hanging around mob guys. The mob in Chicago was called "the Outfit" and it was comprised mainly of Italians.Most of their ancestries could be traced back to Sicily and Naples,but it wasn't set in stone that you had to be dago to belong.Murray "The Camel" Humphries had Brit blood in him and was a good earner. He ran numbers and one of his specialties was kidnapping.He started like all those guys, with Capone, and Capone put him in charge of taking over the labor unions.Jake "Greasy Thumb" Guzik was Capone's bookkeeper and he was Jewish, but as long as Guzik could outmaneuver the IRS on Capone's behalf Capone didn't care whether he went to the synagogue on Saturday.
Now Ruby was a little different than the previously mentioned. He had a chip on his shoulder and kept wanting to show everyone that Jews were tough and couldn't be pushed around.It was a lot of hot air for the most part,but there was no way Capone ,or any of the guys who ran Chicago after his departure o the pen, was going to let Ruby run anything besides a newspaper stand. He was a loose cannon and they were afraid he'd do something to prove himself and get a lot of guys in hot water.By the time Sam Giancana was taking orders from Tony Accardo from above they all thought it would be a good idea to send Ruby to some far off place.If he was going to make an ass of himself they didn't want him to screw up in Chicago.So they told him to pack his bags and go off to that rip roaring saddle busting town of Dallas, Texas.There he operated a strip bar ,The Carousel Club.
But now Ruby had to make new friends who were tough guys and whose last names didn't end in vowels.Ruby thought it would only be the right thing to do put get his head up the Dallas Police Department's ass.In his club, the Dallas cops were given the red carpet treatment. (Isn't it fascinating that pussy is often the common denominator?)Ruby was always comping the Dallas fuzz to drinks and introducing them to his girls. Some of Dallas' finest even went to the altar with some of them. J.D. Tippet, the cop who they said Oswald shot in the Oak Cliff suburb the day of the JFK assassination,married one of Jack's strippers. There were others that also tied the knot.And Ruby's joint was also a meeting place for some of his acquaintances.Two names worth mentioning are Lee Harvey Oswald and David Ferrie. It's also interesting to count the dozens of phone calls Jimmy Hoffa(a rabid hater of the Kennedy's)made to Ruby's club the week prior to the assassination. Yeah,the figures were in place but the Dallas police and the FBI didn't want to connect the dots. And The Warren Commission was of no help drawing the lines.
Everything regarding the hit on JFK went according to plan,coverup, and patsy included,except for one thing. They were supposed to kill Oswald in The Texas Theater but instead they arrested him. Now he would go to trial(OOPS!)So now the Jack Ruby is called to the telephone.
I was sitting with my father watching them transport Oswald from the city jail to the lock up across the street.the county jail,when Jack Ruby emerged from the crowd in the basement and puts his .38 in Lee Harvey's gut and pulls the trigger.When the smoke cleared the reporters named the shooter as "Jack Rubinstein."
"Hey,I know that guy,"shouted my father."He used to hang around on Maxwell Street with Barney Ross wanting to be a tough guy."
At his trial Ruby asked his lawyers if Barney Ross would testify as a character reference.Ross never showed. I mean what the hell did they want him to say anyway?
Al Capone
A lot of guys like to be seen in the company of fighters because they think by hanging around a fighter it will make him synonymous with being a tough guy.Jack Ruby,the guy that knocked off Lee Harvey Oswald was a guy like that. Growing up in the Jewish part of Chicago around Maxwell Street you could usually find him palling around with Barney Ross. They were good friends.It wasn't like Ross thought of Ruby as a pest.They were "chavers" even though everyone knew that Ruby was also a little "meshuga."Ross was the "honest" tough guy of the Jewish quarter of the Windy City. He was a remarkable fighter. In my opinion ,the best "pure" boxer since Benny Leonard. When World War II ignited Ross enlisted in the Marine Corps,but almost didn't make it to any fighting front. Some DI called him a "kike" and Ross decided to make a comeback and flattened the guy. He was court marshalled but was acquitted of the the charges.A Jewish officer convinced the board that Ross wasn't at fault so he got a pass and they sent him off to Guadacanal.There in a battle he single handedly held off two dozen Japanese soldiers that ambushed his squad. Ross was the only man not wounded and fought them off all night killing every single one of them. He was awarded the Silver Star.
However, during that battle he was severely wounded to the point that he got hooked on morphine. He fought back and later overcame his addiction.When he returned to Maxwell Street he was (to steal the nickname of another Jewish fighter,Ruby Goldstein)"The Pride Of The Ghetto."Yeah,Jack Ruby wanted to get close to Barney Ross. But Ruby also had a penchant for hanging around mob guys. The mob in Chicago was called "the Outfit" and it was comprised mainly of Italians.Most of their ancestries could be traced back to Sicily and Naples,but it wasn't set in stone that you had to be dago to belong.Murray "The Camel" Humphries had Brit blood in him and was a good earner. He ran numbers and one of his specialties was kidnapping.He started like all those guys, with Capone, and Capone put him in charge of taking over the labor unions.Jake "Greasy Thumb" Guzik was Capone's bookkeeper and he was Jewish, but as long as Guzik could outmaneuver the IRS on Capone's behalf Capone didn't care whether he went to the synagogue on Saturday.
Now Ruby was a little different than the previously mentioned. He had a chip on his shoulder and kept wanting to show everyone that Jews were tough and couldn't be pushed around.It was a lot of hot air for the most part,but there was no way Capone ,or any of the guys who ran Chicago after his departure o the pen, was going to let Ruby run anything besides a newspaper stand. He was a loose cannon and they were afraid he'd do something to prove himself and get a lot of guys in hot water.By the time Sam Giancana was taking orders from Tony Accardo from above they all thought it would be a good idea to send Ruby to some far off place.If he was going to make an ass of himself they didn't want him to screw up in Chicago.So they told him to pack his bags and go off to that rip roaring saddle busting town of Dallas, Texas.There he operated a strip bar ,The Carousel Club.
But now Ruby had to make new friends who were tough guys and whose last names didn't end in vowels.Ruby thought it would only be the right thing to do put get his head up the Dallas Police Department's ass.In his club, the Dallas cops were given the red carpet treatment. (Isn't it fascinating that pussy is often the common denominator?)Ruby was always comping the Dallas fuzz to drinks and introducing them to his girls. Some of Dallas' finest even went to the altar with some of them. J.D. Tippet, the cop who they said Oswald shot in the Oak Cliff suburb the day of the JFK assassination,married one of Jack's strippers. There were others that also tied the knot.And Ruby's joint was also a meeting place for some of his acquaintances.Two names worth mentioning are Lee Harvey Oswald and David Ferrie. It's also interesting to count the dozens of phone calls Jimmy Hoffa(a rabid hater of the Kennedy's)made to Ruby's club the week prior to the assassination. Yeah,the figures were in place but the Dallas police and the FBI didn't want to connect the dots. And The Warren Commission was of no help drawing the lines.
Everything regarding the hit on JFK went according to plan,coverup, and patsy included,except for one thing. They were supposed to kill Oswald in The Texas Theater but instead they arrested him. Now he would go to trial(OOPS!)So now the Jack Ruby is called to the telephone.
I was sitting with my father watching them transport Oswald from the city jail to the lock up across the street.the county jail,when Jack Ruby emerged from the crowd in the basement and puts his .38 in Lee Harvey's gut and pulls the trigger.When the smoke cleared the reporters named the shooter as "Jack Rubinstein."
"Hey,I know that guy,"shouted my father."He used to hang around on Maxwell Street with Barney Ross wanting to be a tough guy."
At his trial Ruby asked his lawyers if Barney Ross would testify as a character reference.Ross never showed. I mean what the hell did they want him to say anyway?
Al Capone
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Words Speak Louder Then Action
When Archie Moore got into the ring with Cassius Clay it was the end of the end and the beginning of the beginning.Old school taking its exit exam and failing ,and the freshman enrolling in a prerequisite course passing with flying colors. Archie Moore entering the ring with his slicked back hot lye hair. Clay with the natural kinky look. Even their names had contrasting airs. Archibald Lee Wright.Cassius Marcellus Clay.Though Clay would later denounce his name because that was the name the white man "gave" him with all the slave overtones attatched,it still sounded a lot more cool than Archibald Lee Wright. But the link with old a new was there that night in the LA Sports Arena.
Moore beginning his long career in 1935 fighting the likes of Kid Pocahuntas and Piano Man Jones;Clay 25 years later confronting shadows like Tunney Hunsaker and Herb Siler. Both Moore and Clay would finish their treks through boxing fighting everyone. In the end they can't say they ducked anybody.
Although Clay was a symbol for a new age he had some Archie Moore in him .He never gave way to the funky and floppy style of attire with the loud colors and the wide lapels and flared cuffs.Except for the first Frazier fight(he had on those red trunks and tassels on his shoes.He partly attributed his loss because he wasn't dressed right
) his boxing togs were the standard white trunks with the black piping.He went Cubano with the white shoes but let's face it "butterflies" don't fly very well wearing black footwear.He never wore a beard or an Afro.No long sideburns. Except in training for Homes when he suffered a cut lip did he think a mustache was "him."His taste in music was pretty innocent. Give him a good Sam Cooke ballad or some rhythm and blues ala The Impressions and he was happy.
You can say he started the trash talking but it never seemed mean spirited.Even when was calling Joe Frazier a "gorilla" he left you chuckling instead of vomiting.He recited his poems and had an innate wit that twinkled his eye, and even the erudites knew they couldn't get one by him.He was always in control of a situation but if a smart aleck thought he could sucker punch him a snappy counter was always returned.
Archie Moore never forgave Ali for the talking before their fight. The beating he took was humiliating.it's one of those fights you look back on and say "a fight hat shouldn't have been made."But Marciano and Patterson beat the old guy to a pulp but they never made up poetic predictions similar to how they were going to wup upside his head.And then Cassius wouldn't listen to Archie's lectures and sweep the floors when they began their relationship in the foothills of San Diego.
Archie Moore was in a lot of Ali's opponents' corners and in the end you could see him putting on the fallen foe's robe after he was counted out. Archie Moore couldn't beat Ali inside the ring and outside of it. He could never let go.When Larry Holmes almost put Ali in a hearse he never took it to heart. He was even joking about it in his hospital bed.But then again Larry Holmes never wrote any poems either.
"Archie Moore will fall in four."Now what's so bad about that?
When Archie Moore got into the ring with Cassius Clay it was the end of the end and the beginning of the beginning.Old school taking its exit exam and failing ,and the freshman enrolling in a prerequisite course passing with flying colors. Archie Moore entering the ring with his slicked back hot lye hair. Clay with the natural kinky look. Even their names had contrasting airs. Archibald Lee Wright.Cassius Marcellus Clay.Though Clay would later denounce his name because that was the name the white man "gave" him with all the slave overtones attatched,it still sounded a lot more cool than Archibald Lee Wright. But the link with old a new was there that night in the LA Sports Arena.
Moore beginning his long career in 1935 fighting the likes of Kid Pocahuntas and Piano Man Jones;Clay 25 years later confronting shadows like Tunney Hunsaker and Herb Siler. Both Moore and Clay would finish their treks through boxing fighting everyone. In the end they can't say they ducked anybody.
Although Clay was a symbol for a new age he had some Archie Moore in him .He never gave way to the funky and floppy style of attire with the loud colors and the wide lapels and flared cuffs.Except for the first Frazier fight(he had on those red trunks and tassels on his shoes.He partly attributed his loss because he wasn't dressed right
) his boxing togs were the standard white trunks with the black piping.He went Cubano with the white shoes but let's face it "butterflies" don't fly very well wearing black footwear.He never wore a beard or an Afro.No long sideburns. Except in training for Homes when he suffered a cut lip did he think a mustache was "him."His taste in music was pretty innocent. Give him a good Sam Cooke ballad or some rhythm and blues ala The Impressions and he was happy.You can say he started the trash talking but it never seemed mean spirited.Even when was calling Joe Frazier a "gorilla" he left you chuckling instead of vomiting.He recited his poems and had an innate wit that twinkled his eye, and even the erudites knew they couldn't get one by him.He was always in control of a situation but if a smart aleck thought he could sucker punch him a snappy counter was always returned.
Archie Moore never forgave Ali for the talking before their fight. The beating he took was humiliating.it's one of those fights you look back on and say "a fight hat shouldn't have been made."But Marciano and Patterson beat the old guy to a pulp but they never made up poetic predictions similar to how they were going to wup upside his head.And then Cassius wouldn't listen to Archie's lectures and sweep the floors when they began their relationship in the foothills of San Diego.
Archie Moore was in a lot of Ali's opponents' corners and in the end you could see him putting on the fallen foe's robe after he was counted out. Archie Moore couldn't beat Ali inside the ring and outside of it. He could never let go.When Larry Holmes almost put Ali in a hearse he never took it to heart. He was even joking about it in his hospital bed.But then again Larry Holmes never wrote any poems either.
"Archie Moore will fall in four."Now what's so bad about that?
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Star Struck
They don't have the big name stars in the movies like they did back then. Ok,I always seem to get myself in this fix-"Back In My Day." You younger fellas are probably getting worn out with this,or when you see my most recent post you just click on to another. Well,what can I do?This category is mostly historical in nature,and besides I can compare what's out there today with what went on back then because I was breathin' back in those "Good Ol' Days." and can see the difference.You gotta have a frame of reference to do that. The youngins' today are so myopic the fact that anything that happened before their time don't count mainly because they don't know about it.
Now that I've caught my breath I want to talk about the stars today compared with the ones in those "Good Ol' Days."As far as the males leads,Clark Gable was number one. He starred in his best flicks(the ones in the 30's) when I was just a twinkle in dad's eye ,but they'd show his movies on the black and white Philcos usually late at night on the weekends. He was still making pictures during the 50's but he,like a lot of those stars of Hollywood's "Golden Era" ,was getting long in the tooth and showing it on the screen.
But during that "Golden Era" he was the top leading man when it came to pairing him up with one of Tinsel Town's most beautiful lovelies. A young Judy Garland singing "You Made Me Love You" to Gable's photograph in that movie "Broadway Melody Of 1938"was apropos of what women felt in their hearts to their heartthrob they called "The King."
When Margaret Mitchell's all time best seller "Gone With The Wind' was in everyone's bookshelves ,Hollywood as chomping at the bit to make a movie out of it.David O. Selznick,the producer went through the annals of 1400 starlets who were foaming at the mouth to land the role of Scarlet O'Hara.Finally,Vivian Leigh struck gold.As for the part of Rhett Butler it was a lead pipe cinch-Clark Gable. Who else?Spencer Tracy?Too short and dry humored. Gary Cooper? Too homespun.Jimmy Cagney? Another shorty and too much of the wisecracks.No,it was "The King" everyone wanted.
I read on a boxing thread on another website that Clark Gable caught the eye of the studio moguls because he resembled Jack Dempsey. I talked about Dempsey awhile back as being the prototype poster child for a prizefighter-the square jaw,the fighter's nose,the scowl, the bronzed skin on those Dempsey muscles, crouching low moving in for the kill.And that name-JACK DEMPSEY! Testosterone was invented for his guy.
I always thought that Clark Gable was one of those testosterone ilk-the swagger,the don't mince words tell it straight ,the anything goes can't live for ever attitude,the way he could crack a smile,the confidence of his face,standing erect brushing everyone aside.And with all that said he looked like Jack Dempsey-the Man's Man.
Yeah,there are no more Clark Gables.It gave way to the weirdos like Marlon Brando nd James Dean.Then when they were through there came the smug erudite wise asses-Jack Nicholson,Dustin Hoffman,Al Pacino and his goomba Bobby DeZiro.Paul Newman was OK but he no Rocky Graziano.Robert Redford was always wanting to be goodlooking. Gable didn't have to try.Even when he got old from all the booze he didn't give a s--t.Oh,I left out Bogey.Well, he was in a class by himself.The guy I liked the best that came along later was Gene Hackman.He was "Popeye" Doyle
Dempsey and Gable. The thing you have to remember that one was a fighter and the other an actor. What you see on the outside of an actor is not what's in the inside. I mean if you're so tough you wouldn't want to go to acting school and be on the stage. I know Jack Dempsey didn't want to be a movie star. He wanted to kick some ass and not pull any punches like they do in the movies.
Also getting back to that guy who posted about the producers seeing the likeness between the two. He said that they wanted Gable to star in a movie about Dempsey but the war broke out and that nixed everything.Way later when everyone was dead in 1983 they made a movie about the life of Jack Dempsey.I think it was called "Dempsey." An actor named Treat Williams played the Mannassa Mauler. Do I need to go on further?Hell,at least they could have picked a guy who didn't have a first name like "Treat."
Jack Dempsey
Clark Gable
They don't have the big name stars in the movies like they did back then. Ok,I always seem to get myself in this fix-"Back In My Day." You younger fellas are probably getting worn out with this,or when you see my most recent post you just click on to another. Well,what can I do?This category is mostly historical in nature,and besides I can compare what's out there today with what went on back then because I was breathin' back in those "Good Ol' Days." and can see the difference.You gotta have a frame of reference to do that. The youngins' today are so myopic the fact that anything that happened before their time don't count mainly because they don't know about it.
Now that I've caught my breath I want to talk about the stars today compared with the ones in those "Good Ol' Days."As far as the males leads,Clark Gable was number one. He starred in his best flicks(the ones in the 30's) when I was just a twinkle in dad's eye ,but they'd show his movies on the black and white Philcos usually late at night on the weekends. He was still making pictures during the 50's but he,like a lot of those stars of Hollywood's "Golden Era" ,was getting long in the tooth and showing it on the screen.
But during that "Golden Era" he was the top leading man when it came to pairing him up with one of Tinsel Town's most beautiful lovelies. A young Judy Garland singing "You Made Me Love You" to Gable's photograph in that movie "Broadway Melody Of 1938"was apropos of what women felt in their hearts to their heartthrob they called "The King."
When Margaret Mitchell's all time best seller "Gone With The Wind' was in everyone's bookshelves ,Hollywood as chomping at the bit to make a movie out of it.David O. Selznick,the producer went through the annals of 1400 starlets who were foaming at the mouth to land the role of Scarlet O'Hara.Finally,Vivian Leigh struck gold.As for the part of Rhett Butler it was a lead pipe cinch-Clark Gable. Who else?Spencer Tracy?Too short and dry humored. Gary Cooper? Too homespun.Jimmy Cagney? Another shorty and too much of the wisecracks.No,it was "The King" everyone wanted.
I read on a boxing thread on another website that Clark Gable caught the eye of the studio moguls because he resembled Jack Dempsey. I talked about Dempsey awhile back as being the prototype poster child for a prizefighter-the square jaw,the fighter's nose,the scowl, the bronzed skin on those Dempsey muscles, crouching low moving in for the kill.And that name-JACK DEMPSEY! Testosterone was invented for his guy.
I always thought that Clark Gable was one of those testosterone ilk-the swagger,the don't mince words tell it straight ,the anything goes can't live for ever attitude,the way he could crack a smile,the confidence of his face,standing erect brushing everyone aside.And with all that said he looked like Jack Dempsey-the Man's Man.
Yeah,there are no more Clark Gables.It gave way to the weirdos like Marlon Brando nd James Dean.Then when they were through there came the smug erudite wise asses-Jack Nicholson,Dustin Hoffman,Al Pacino and his goomba Bobby DeZiro.Paul Newman was OK but he no Rocky Graziano.Robert Redford was always wanting to be goodlooking. Gable didn't have to try.Even when he got old from all the booze he didn't give a s--t.Oh,I left out Bogey.Well, he was in a class by himself.The guy I liked the best that came along later was Gene Hackman.He was "Popeye" Doyle
Dempsey and Gable. The thing you have to remember that one was a fighter and the other an actor. What you see on the outside of an actor is not what's in the inside. I mean if you're so tough you wouldn't want to go to acting school and be on the stage. I know Jack Dempsey didn't want to be a movie star. He wanted to kick some ass and not pull any punches like they do in the movies.
Also getting back to that guy who posted about the producers seeing the likeness between the two. He said that they wanted Gable to star in a movie about Dempsey but the war broke out and that nixed everything.Way later when everyone was dead in 1983 they made a movie about the life of Jack Dempsey.I think it was called "Dempsey." An actor named Treat Williams played the Mannassa Mauler. Do I need to go on further?Hell,at least they could have picked a guy who didn't have a first name like "Treat."
Jack Dempsey
Clark Gable
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Lest I Forget
I got to thinking about my last post:the similarities and differences with Clark Gable and Jack Dempsey. It was in the looks department that Hollywood thought that Gable's physical resemblance to Jack Dempsey would payoff at the box office.It might have had a little to do with it. Then I went on about how actors are taught to be something else on the screen that isn't really them in real life. I was hinting that Gable was not the tough guy in his street clothes that he portrayed in the movies.Well,I got to thinking about it and I realized I typed before I thought.
Clark Gable was an aerial gunner in a B 17 bomber and flew six combat missions over Germany before our State Department pulled the plug on him. He wanted to fulfill his deployment but Jimmy Doolittle thought we didn't need to see Clark Gable go down in flames and wind up in a prisoner of war camp or dead.Because of his age and the pull the studios had with the State Department he could have stayed in Hollywood making pictures. He left the Army Air Corps as a major.
Jack Dempsey was a slacker during World War I and he caught a lot of heat from the public. When he fought George Carpentier for the championship the fans were in the Frenchman's corner.Carpentier was a pilot and later a flight instructor for France.When World War II broke out Jack Dempsey enlisted in the Coast Guard as a physical fitness instructor and was commissioned a commander.Because of his age at that time he could have signed autographs and shook hands in his restaurant on Broadway. During the invasion of Okinawa he was aboard the attack transport USS Middleton. Dempsey also toured military bases teaching boxing to willing servicemen.
I was never in the service nor was a world boxing title holder not to mention an an actor. Oh,I do a lot of acting alright. Maybe I should have gone to Hollywood.The walk would have done me good.
I got to thinking about my last post:the similarities and differences with Clark Gable and Jack Dempsey. It was in the looks department that Hollywood thought that Gable's physical resemblance to Jack Dempsey would payoff at the box office.It might have had a little to do with it. Then I went on about how actors are taught to be something else on the screen that isn't really them in real life. I was hinting that Gable was not the tough guy in his street clothes that he portrayed in the movies.Well,I got to thinking about it and I realized I typed before I thought.
Clark Gable was an aerial gunner in a B 17 bomber and flew six combat missions over Germany before our State Department pulled the plug on him. He wanted to fulfill his deployment but Jimmy Doolittle thought we didn't need to see Clark Gable go down in flames and wind up in a prisoner of war camp or dead.Because of his age and the pull the studios had with the State Department he could have stayed in Hollywood making pictures. He left the Army Air Corps as a major.
Jack Dempsey was a slacker during World War I and he caught a lot of heat from the public. When he fought George Carpentier for the championship the fans were in the Frenchman's corner.Carpentier was a pilot and later a flight instructor for France.When World War II broke out Jack Dempsey enlisted in the Coast Guard as a physical fitness instructor and was commissioned a commander.Because of his age at that time he could have signed autographs and shook hands in his restaurant on Broadway. During the invasion of Okinawa he was aboard the attack transport USS Middleton. Dempsey also toured military bases teaching boxing to willing servicemen.
I was never in the service nor was a world boxing title holder not to mention an an actor. Oh,I do a lot of acting alright. Maybe I should have gone to Hollywood.The walk would have done me good.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Tell Me Who Your Friends Are And I'll Tell You Who You Are
When Edd "Too Tall" Jones the football player finished his stint as a professional fighter he said he was never around so many unsavory characters in his life. I guess there's not that many unsavory characters in the National Football League. And I guess when he was going to school in Tennessee there weren't that many.And in college.
Because Jones was such a high profile athlete for the Dallas Cowboys all his pro fights(all 6 of them)were shown live on TV. I think a lot of people were figuring that a professional athlete that was 6 foot 9 and in good football shape would have success with fighting. Jones looked at it the same way.But it wasn't. I think a lot of people look at a boxing match and think it isn't that hard to get in the ring and punch some guy's lights out.If anything boxing is the most difficult sport to master. (I think Angelo Dundee kept saying that)Most fighters don't put it all together. Even the great ones are still learning something at the end and not mastering it.
I remember Jones' first fight with the Mexican journeyman Abraham Meneses. It was a sloppy go all the way.It was scheduled for 6 and in the last round Meneses sent Jones to the canvas and then hit him when he was down. There ensued a lot of chaos in the ring.The ref didn't DQ Meneses and the decision went to Jones.There was a lot of booing but by that time you knew that Edd Jones wasn't going to set the world on fire with boxing.I think Edd knew it too.His thoughts of maybe being a hero in there evaporated. After his first fight peoole wanted to see him lose,and go down in flames.
I don't care how athletic one is you have to learn how to box like you have to learn how to play football. And starting boxing in your late 20's is ridiculous.(You gotta hand it to Charley Goldman when he transformed a crude 23 year old Rocky Marciano into a crude heavyweight champion of the world) Everything in the stars has to be aligned perfectly. Jones' universe looked like a bad LSD trip.
So when it was over Jones said that he never met up with so many "crummy" people in his life. He also added that boxing "was the best decision" he ever made. I guess he saw all those bad people and didn't want to be associated with them.Or maybe he just didn't want to get his ass kicked.
Rocky Marciano
When Edd "Too Tall" Jones the football player finished his stint as a professional fighter he said he was never around so many unsavory characters in his life. I guess there's not that many unsavory characters in the National Football League. And I guess when he was going to school in Tennessee there weren't that many.And in college.
Because Jones was such a high profile athlete for the Dallas Cowboys all his pro fights(all 6 of them)were shown live on TV. I think a lot of people were figuring that a professional athlete that was 6 foot 9 and in good football shape would have success with fighting. Jones looked at it the same way.But it wasn't. I think a lot of people look at a boxing match and think it isn't that hard to get in the ring and punch some guy's lights out.If anything boxing is the most difficult sport to master. (I think Angelo Dundee kept saying that)Most fighters don't put it all together. Even the great ones are still learning something at the end and not mastering it.
I remember Jones' first fight with the Mexican journeyman Abraham Meneses. It was a sloppy go all the way.It was scheduled for 6 and in the last round Meneses sent Jones to the canvas and then hit him when he was down. There ensued a lot of chaos in the ring.The ref didn't DQ Meneses and the decision went to Jones.There was a lot of booing but by that time you knew that Edd Jones wasn't going to set the world on fire with boxing.I think Edd knew it too.His thoughts of maybe being a hero in there evaporated. After his first fight peoole wanted to see him lose,and go down in flames.
I don't care how athletic one is you have to learn how to box like you have to learn how to play football. And starting boxing in your late 20's is ridiculous.(You gotta hand it to Charley Goldman when he transformed a crude 23 year old Rocky Marciano into a crude heavyweight champion of the world) Everything in the stars has to be aligned perfectly. Jones' universe looked like a bad LSD trip.
So when it was over Jones said that he never met up with so many "crummy" people in his life. He also added that boxing "was the best decision" he ever made. I guess he saw all those bad people and didn't want to be associated with them.Or maybe he just didn't want to get his ass kicked.
Rocky Marciano
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
I'll Take A Stab At It
I'm glad to see Canelo Alvarez fighting again. Too bad his opponents don't want to fight back.After getting stonewalled by Oscar De La Hoya and Golden Boy he got out on his own and is putting together a list of opponents so he can keep his name in the papers. After more than a year out of the ring we saw him with the Brit ,Callum Smith. It was about as one sided a contest as it gets. Canelo was trying to knock him out but Smith got stuck in reverse and didn't try to make a fight out of it. It wouldn't even be considered a worthwhile sparring match. They should have paid Smith sparring partner scale for what he showed.Of course you had to pay to see it in the U.S. I was thinking of going down to Tijuana and watch it for free but a little birdie told me this was going to be a stinker.I'm glad I stayed home.After watching the "highlights" the next day on YouTube I told my doctor to recommend that his patients click on to the fight if they needed to take a sedative.
Last week Canelo was up to bat again.This time with the number one fighter in Turkey by the name of Avni Yildirim.If that was Turkey's number one guy then I figured out the rational.He fought like a turkey. Maybe that's what they meant. Again, I flipped onto YouTube the next day for the "highlights."When Canelo decked Yildirim the number one gobbler picked himself up from the canvas he was smiling at Alvarez and gave him the thumbs up(I could see through his boxing gloves).It was like "Good shot Canelo.Way to go!" Well, what I put in my mouth last Thanksgiving probably put up a better fight , before getting his head wrung, than this turkey from Turkey.
Now I see that Alvarez has another fight lined up in May with Billy Joe Saunders. I'm hoping that Saunders puts up more of a battle than Smith and the number one guy from Turkey.BTW I see Turkey still has him ranked number one.
The smoke screen is that these punching bags have impressive records on paper.Smith was undefeated,The Pride Of Istanbul had only two losses on his record. Billy Joe hasn't tasted defeat but that little birdie is telling me that when the dust clears they're going to sing an ode to Billy Joe and it's going to have some very sad lyrics.
Canelo ,being great as he is, reminds me of what Joe Louis had to settle for for opponents. They called his little venture "The Bum Of The Month Club".I don't know how you'd say that in Spanish but I'll take a stab at it. "El Mendigo Del Mez."If any of you Latinos out there want to correct me on this go ahead.All I can say is that I'm glad Alvarez is fighting again.I just wish his opponents would fight back.
Canelo Alvarez
I'm glad to see Canelo Alvarez fighting again. Too bad his opponents don't want to fight back.After getting stonewalled by Oscar De La Hoya and Golden Boy he got out on his own and is putting together a list of opponents so he can keep his name in the papers. After more than a year out of the ring we saw him with the Brit ,Callum Smith. It was about as one sided a contest as it gets. Canelo was trying to knock him out but Smith got stuck in reverse and didn't try to make a fight out of it. It wouldn't even be considered a worthwhile sparring match. They should have paid Smith sparring partner scale for what he showed.Of course you had to pay to see it in the U.S. I was thinking of going down to Tijuana and watch it for free but a little birdie told me this was going to be a stinker.I'm glad I stayed home.After watching the "highlights" the next day on YouTube I told my doctor to recommend that his patients click on to the fight if they needed to take a sedative.
Last week Canelo was up to bat again.This time with the number one fighter in Turkey by the name of Avni Yildirim.If that was Turkey's number one guy then I figured out the rational.He fought like a turkey. Maybe that's what they meant. Again, I flipped onto YouTube the next day for the "highlights."When Canelo decked Yildirim the number one gobbler picked himself up from the canvas he was smiling at Alvarez and gave him the thumbs up(I could see through his boxing gloves).It was like "Good shot Canelo.Way to go!" Well, what I put in my mouth last Thanksgiving probably put up a better fight , before getting his head wrung, than this turkey from Turkey.
Now I see that Alvarez has another fight lined up in May with Billy Joe Saunders. I'm hoping that Saunders puts up more of a battle than Smith and the number one guy from Turkey.BTW I see Turkey still has him ranked number one.
The smoke screen is that these punching bags have impressive records on paper.Smith was undefeated,The Pride Of Istanbul had only two losses on his record. Billy Joe hasn't tasted defeat but that little birdie is telling me that when the dust clears they're going to sing an ode to Billy Joe and it's going to have some very sad lyrics.
Canelo ,being great as he is, reminds me of what Joe Louis had to settle for for opponents. They called his little venture "The Bum Of The Month Club".I don't know how you'd say that in Spanish but I'll take a stab at it. "El Mendigo Del Mez."If any of you Latinos out there want to correct me on this go ahead.All I can say is that I'm glad Alvarez is fighting again.I just wish his opponents would fight back.
Canelo Alvarez
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
The Small Pond
Canelo Alvarez is the number one guy in Mexico.If you were to go out on the street and ask people about Jaime Munguia or Luis Nery you'd probably get a lot of blank stares. The talk in the bars isn't so much about sports anyhow.It's trying to get through a life that was always tough and now is tougher. But I'll say this-not taking life too seriously and que sera sera- is the motto of The Serpent And The Snake. The days of Mexican fighters' names being on the tips of tongues is over.Boxing I think is still the number one sport in Mexico but it's all on Canelo Alvarez's plate. He's got a corner on the market.If he drops out of the picture I couldn't tell you where the shift would go.
In the 30's Mexico City was the "New York City" of its boxing's core. Kid Azteca was synonymous with El Boxeo. The triumvirate of Baby Casanova,Juan Zurita,and Joe Conde took turns waging war on each other.One guy winning one week,then the tables turning the following.Another "Baby",Arizmendi was as tough as sun dried leather.He could give any featherweight in the world a good run for his money. After war era came along Manny Ortiz,Lauro Salas, and "Raton" Macias-all world champions.Joe Becerra was the best bantamweight. "Pajarito" Moreno would give you your money's worth win lose or draw. Joe Medel came along and you knew you'd see plenty of action.And of course,Vicente Saldivar was a rock.Then came that era of the late 60's and 70's. Ruben Oliveras was considered the best fighter to ever emerge out of the country.but companeros like Chucho Castillo and Rafael Herrera had something to say about it.Next in line were two sticks of dynamite-Carlos Zarate and Salvador Sanchez. Another champion,Lupe Pintor, left his mark.The era of Julio Cesar Chavez captured a world audience.These guys I just mentioned(and I know I omitted many)were big name fighters who had big name fights.
Today,Canelo Alvarez is hanging out there on a limb with no one to fight. Triple G was a worthy opponent.I say "was." When Canelo established himself by winning their last fight the fans knew that he was the real article.Many Mexicans thought Canelo was going to lose the rematch but he outfought Golovkin.Now all of Mexico is in Canelo's corner,They're waiting around for the third one but I think Golovkin has shot his wad.
Canelo could have turned sour after Floyd Mayweather gave him boxing lesson. Mexicans weren't sure what was ahead. Would he collapse? No.Canelo proved himself time after time.And now he's the best fighter in the world. But like I said he's all by himself. All those great Mexican fighters I mentioned in the previous paragraphs built their reps fighting big fights. Canelo is going to stay active thank God,but his opponents are on the pay no mind list.Alvarez is the biggest name in Mexico's boxing circle but it's becoming that he's the big fish in a small pond.He wants to go down in history as Mexico's greatest fighter.To do that he's got to beat a few more other greats.Right now they're just aren't any on the horizon.All he can do is stay active and fight whatever's out there.It's better than not fighting at all.
Triple G Golvotkin.His best days are behind him.
Canelo Alvarez is the number one guy in Mexico.If you were to go out on the street and ask people about Jaime Munguia or Luis Nery you'd probably get a lot of blank stares. The talk in the bars isn't so much about sports anyhow.It's trying to get through a life that was always tough and now is tougher. But I'll say this-not taking life too seriously and que sera sera- is the motto of The Serpent And The Snake. The days of Mexican fighters' names being on the tips of tongues is over.Boxing I think is still the number one sport in Mexico but it's all on Canelo Alvarez's plate. He's got a corner on the market.If he drops out of the picture I couldn't tell you where the shift would go.
In the 30's Mexico City was the "New York City" of its boxing's core. Kid Azteca was synonymous with El Boxeo. The triumvirate of Baby Casanova,Juan Zurita,and Joe Conde took turns waging war on each other.One guy winning one week,then the tables turning the following.Another "Baby",Arizmendi was as tough as sun dried leather.He could give any featherweight in the world a good run for his money. After war era came along Manny Ortiz,Lauro Salas, and "Raton" Macias-all world champions.Joe Becerra was the best bantamweight. "Pajarito" Moreno would give you your money's worth win lose or draw. Joe Medel came along and you knew you'd see plenty of action.And of course,Vicente Saldivar was a rock.Then came that era of the late 60's and 70's. Ruben Oliveras was considered the best fighter to ever emerge out of the country.but companeros like Chucho Castillo and Rafael Herrera had something to say about it.Next in line were two sticks of dynamite-Carlos Zarate and Salvador Sanchez. Another champion,Lupe Pintor, left his mark.The era of Julio Cesar Chavez captured a world audience.These guys I just mentioned(and I know I omitted many)were big name fighters who had big name fights.
Today,Canelo Alvarez is hanging out there on a limb with no one to fight. Triple G was a worthy opponent.I say "was." When Canelo established himself by winning their last fight the fans knew that he was the real article.Many Mexicans thought Canelo was going to lose the rematch but he outfought Golovkin.Now all of Mexico is in Canelo's corner,They're waiting around for the third one but I think Golovkin has shot his wad.
Canelo could have turned sour after Floyd Mayweather gave him boxing lesson. Mexicans weren't sure what was ahead. Would he collapse? No.Canelo proved himself time after time.And now he's the best fighter in the world. But like I said he's all by himself. All those great Mexican fighters I mentioned in the previous paragraphs built their reps fighting big fights. Canelo is going to stay active thank God,but his opponents are on the pay no mind list.Alvarez is the biggest name in Mexico's boxing circle but it's becoming that he's the big fish in a small pond.He wants to go down in history as Mexico's greatest fighter.To do that he's got to beat a few more other greats.Right now they're just aren't any on the horizon.All he can do is stay active and fight whatever's out there.It's better than not fighting at all.
Triple G Golvotkin.His best days are behind him.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
I Surrender Dear
Marcel Cerdan was one of those world champions from Europe(France being his stomping grounds)that you could never put your finger on.He had one of those long win streaks fighting in the Continent and North Africa(he was born in Algiers)but the opposition certainly wasn't what it was here in States.He made a couple of appearances in the U.S. but never caught on with the fans. The verdict was still out. While he was in New York he was invited to The Club Versailles by Europe's toast of the town ala the vocal chords,Edith Piaf.She was the highest paid entertainer in Europe and second only to Sinatra when filling up the bank account vocalizing.
Edith Piaf was one of those tragic stories of a street urchin panhandling in the Pigalle and Montmarte singing songs amongst the cutthroats,prostitutes, and pimps that roamed that tawdry section of Gay Paree. She fit right in. It wasn't until a gay entrepreneur named Louis Leplee heard her sing on a corner in front of a rapt throng that he invited her to perform in his club Le Gerny's.Of course this little waif had to undergo a transformation .Her name Edith Gassion, was changed to Edith Piaf(meaning sparrow).Her wardrobe ,hair,make up,and general hygiene also was addressed.She learned how to eat with a knife and fork and how to talk to people without throwing in the French four letter words.All this attention was going to worth the effort because inside her 4 foot 10 frame lived one of the most powerful voices that was fed from her heart with unequalled pathos.A girl from the streets that stayed that figure all her life. The broken and lost identified with her and the rich and famous wanted to sit beside her. Her appetites for alcohol,drugs,and lust were voracious. Her list of affairs(male and female) would fill a telephone book. One person on that list would be Marcel Cerdan.
Edit Piaf.like Marcel Cerdan wanted to win over the people of the United States.She struggled with learning English and while at the Club Versailles she became lonely for the lifestyle she left behind in the clubs and streets in Paris. She also needed a boyfriend.The black widow who sang in her custom plain black dress wove her web at the door,and Cerdan walked right into it.He was snared.
Edith Piaf was a singer and carouser who hated to sleep.She thought sleep was waste of time.. Marcel Cerdan certainly needed plenty of rest and training to keep his fighting posture fine tuned. However,the differences was like a magnet. What the other lacked the other wanted. But sooner or later something was going to give.
The two of them weren't shy about being seen together and smiling and hugging for the paparazzi. Cerdan was married with three kids but who cared?(His wife wasn't surprised.The kids hated her guts)You only go around once in life,and besides,this was Paris.They both knew it would all blow over after awhile.Marcel would go back to his wife and Edith would snare another lover.
In the meantime Cerdan was on a quest to be the middleweight champion of the world,and sitting ringside would be Edith Piaf. In Brussels Cerdan lost his first fight(he was Dq'd in a couple of others)giving up his European Middleweight Title.The papers said that Edith was bad luck.She was a distraction, She was the albatross around Marcel's muscular neck.The French loved every minute of it.
Cerdan finally got his crack at Tony Zale(with Edith at ringside "Keel Heem Marcel!")and melted The Man Of Steel in 11 rounds.In his first defense of his new crown he fought Jake La Motta in Detroit.There's no film of the entire fight but in the 2nd round they clinched and Jake rolled Cerdan to the canvas with a move that was more judo than boxing. Marcel had to go on with a torn shoulder. With his strength waning Cerdan stayed on his stool at the bell for round 10.
The rematch was in order.Manager Lucien Roupp and trainer Jo Longman wanted to get Marcel as far away from Edith Piaf as possible. They never liked her and she couldn't understand why. "Me and Marcel are very happy."The men went back to France to get their heads on straight. Edith stayed at The Versailles.While singing "El Vie En Rose" Edith wasn't seeing the world that way without her Marcel.She called everyday begging for him to come back early to mend her broken heart. Cerdan gave way.Cerdan and Longman were aboard a plane departing from the Azores when it crashed into the sea killing everyone on board.
Many say Piaf never recover from the loss.The affair would have ended sooner or later ,but it would have been on HER terms.It didn't turn out that way. She never saw the world through that rosy hue again.
Marcel Cerdan
They never applauded-they shouted
Marcel Cerdan was one of those world champions from Europe(France being his stomping grounds)that you could never put your finger on.He had one of those long win streaks fighting in the Continent and North Africa(he was born in Algiers)but the opposition certainly wasn't what it was here in States.He made a couple of appearances in the U.S. but never caught on with the fans. The verdict was still out. While he was in New York he was invited to The Club Versailles by Europe's toast of the town ala the vocal chords,Edith Piaf.She was the highest paid entertainer in Europe and second only to Sinatra when filling up the bank account vocalizing.
Edith Piaf was one of those tragic stories of a street urchin panhandling in the Pigalle and Montmarte singing songs amongst the cutthroats,prostitutes, and pimps that roamed that tawdry section of Gay Paree. She fit right in. It wasn't until a gay entrepreneur named Louis Leplee heard her sing on a corner in front of a rapt throng that he invited her to perform in his club Le Gerny's.Of course this little waif had to undergo a transformation .Her name Edith Gassion, was changed to Edith Piaf(meaning sparrow).Her wardrobe ,hair,make up,and general hygiene also was addressed.She learned how to eat with a knife and fork and how to talk to people without throwing in the French four letter words.All this attention was going to worth the effort because inside her 4 foot 10 frame lived one of the most powerful voices that was fed from her heart with unequalled pathos.A girl from the streets that stayed that figure all her life. The broken and lost identified with her and the rich and famous wanted to sit beside her. Her appetites for alcohol,drugs,and lust were voracious. Her list of affairs(male and female) would fill a telephone book. One person on that list would be Marcel Cerdan.
Edit Piaf.like Marcel Cerdan wanted to win over the people of the United States.She struggled with learning English and while at the Club Versailles she became lonely for the lifestyle she left behind in the clubs and streets in Paris. She also needed a boyfriend.The black widow who sang in her custom plain black dress wove her web at the door,and Cerdan walked right into it.He was snared.
Edith Piaf was a singer and carouser who hated to sleep.She thought sleep was waste of time.. Marcel Cerdan certainly needed plenty of rest and training to keep his fighting posture fine tuned. However,the differences was like a magnet. What the other lacked the other wanted. But sooner or later something was going to give.
The two of them weren't shy about being seen together and smiling and hugging for the paparazzi. Cerdan was married with three kids but who cared?(His wife wasn't surprised.The kids hated her guts)You only go around once in life,and besides,this was Paris.They both knew it would all blow over after awhile.Marcel would go back to his wife and Edith would snare another lover.
In the meantime Cerdan was on a quest to be the middleweight champion of the world,and sitting ringside would be Edith Piaf. In Brussels Cerdan lost his first fight(he was Dq'd in a couple of others)giving up his European Middleweight Title.The papers said that Edith was bad luck.She was a distraction, She was the albatross around Marcel's muscular neck.The French loved every minute of it.
Cerdan finally got his crack at Tony Zale(with Edith at ringside "Keel Heem Marcel!")and melted The Man Of Steel in 11 rounds.In his first defense of his new crown he fought Jake La Motta in Detroit.There's no film of the entire fight but in the 2nd round they clinched and Jake rolled Cerdan to the canvas with a move that was more judo than boxing. Marcel had to go on with a torn shoulder. With his strength waning Cerdan stayed on his stool at the bell for round 10.
The rematch was in order.Manager Lucien Roupp and trainer Jo Longman wanted to get Marcel as far away from Edith Piaf as possible. They never liked her and she couldn't understand why. "Me and Marcel are very happy."The men went back to France to get their heads on straight. Edith stayed at The Versailles.While singing "El Vie En Rose" Edith wasn't seeing the world that way without her Marcel.She called everyday begging for him to come back early to mend her broken heart. Cerdan gave way.Cerdan and Longman were aboard a plane departing from the Azores when it crashed into the sea killing everyone on board.
Many say Piaf never recover from the loss.The affair would have ended sooner or later ,but it would have been on HER terms.It didn't turn out that way. She never saw the world through that rosy hue again.
Marcel Cerdan
They never applauded-they shouted
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Play For Pay Is Not Playing Around
The question was asked if George Raft,the actor,ever boxed professionally.Well,like I said before, back around the turn of the century,and through WW II, there was no Little League baseball,nor Pop Warner football..Basketball was in its infant stages.Box ing was something just about all male kids tried their hands at. Every burg had a gym. The boys congregated there and put on the gloves and to test their mettle. It was sort of a right of passage. I'm not sure if George Raft ever fought professionally,but doubt it.The bridge between horsing around in the neighborhood gym and boxing professionally is like the movie,"A Bridge Too Far."
I played Little League badeball,moved up to Pony League,then Colt League,was on the high school team.Career over. Coud i have continued upward? I tried out for the San Diego Padres when the became a major league franchise. I lasted a half a day. In the afternoon I got my pink slip.Talk to any kid today and he'll tell you that he played sort sort of youth baseball(Now maybe it's soccer).Boxing?That was back in the Stone Age when there were neighborhood gyms by the truckloads.They even offered boxing in the schools as part of the Phys Ed program.(What would the mothers say today if that sort of thing still went on?)
When the question was asked about George Raft being a pro fighter you might infer that he was on the cusp of being another Jake La Motta. Well,I doubt it. But maybe that sounds like sour grapes because I was never close to being signed to a Rookie League and sitting my ass on the bench, not to mention being another Mickey Mantle.
George Raft
The question was asked if George Raft,the actor,ever boxed professionally.Well,like I said before, back around the turn of the century,and through WW II, there was no Little League baseball,nor Pop Warner football..Basketball was in its infant stages.Box ing was something just about all male kids tried their hands at. Every burg had a gym. The boys congregated there and put on the gloves and to test their mettle. It was sort of a right of passage. I'm not sure if George Raft ever fought professionally,but doubt it.The bridge between horsing around in the neighborhood gym and boxing professionally is like the movie,"A Bridge Too Far."
I played Little League badeball,moved up to Pony League,then Colt League,was on the high school team.Career over. Coud i have continued upward? I tried out for the San Diego Padres when the became a major league franchise. I lasted a half a day. In the afternoon I got my pink slip.Talk to any kid today and he'll tell you that he played sort sort of youth baseball(Now maybe it's soccer).Boxing?That was back in the Stone Age when there were neighborhood gyms by the truckloads.They even offered boxing in the schools as part of the Phys Ed program.(What would the mothers say today if that sort of thing still went on?)
When the question was asked about George Raft being a pro fighter you might infer that he was on the cusp of being another Jake La Motta. Well,I doubt it. But maybe that sounds like sour grapes because I was never close to being signed to a Rookie League and sitting my ass on the bench, not to mention being another Mickey Mantle.
George Raft
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
What Kind Of Name Is That For A Fighter?
"What kind of name is that?"said Mancillas as we were sitting in the cafeteria at Cetys having a cup of coffee before we were to go out on the practice field.
"What do you mean?"I asked him.
"You know.Happy Lora.How can a fighter have a name like "Happy?"
"Isn't his real name Miguel?"
"But he likes to be called Happy.What kind of name is that for a fighter? Jibaro will kill him."
"Are you going up to The Forum to watch the fight?"I asked him.
"No.I can watch it here in Tijuana for free."
"That's good."
"There are plenty of bars in Playas."
"I have to pay for it in San Diego so I'll just have to wait and find out the next day."
"Why don't you come with us?"
"You guys will keep me up all night.I'll just wait."
That wasn't a very macho thing to say.
Jibaro Perez was the pride of Tijuana. He was going to fight the Colombian,Miguel"Happy" Lora for the bantamweight championship at The Forum in Los Angeles.The smart money was on Perez.He had run up an impressive record losing only once in over 40 fights. The loss was typical for a fighter of his stature. in Mexico. He lost when he dropped a decision to a no name fighter in Mexico City. Anything can happen when two Mexican fighters get in the ring. You can throw out all the win streaks.Ask Joe Becerra when he faced the little known Eloy Sanchez.
Jibaro was training at The Crea Gym in the Rio where it was the hotbed for all the top boys in town. Dinamita Estrada was training with Perez with Romulo Quirarte was handling the two.I was with the football team at Cetys at the time and one of the coaches,Sergio Rhodes,was a compadre of Quirarte. After practice we'd go down to the CREA and watch the fighters train.JIbaro had recently married Quirarte's daughter and they had a son.
"I'm worried about JIbaro,"said Sergio as we drove down in my car to the CREA to watch the workouts.
"What's the matter?"
"He's hanging around the wrong people. Romulo is trying to not think about it but it's coming out in the open."
"Romulo's done so much for him.Hell,the kid couldn't even write his name in the beginning.Why in the hell do you think they call him Jibaro?"
"You can't tell Jibaro nothing.He gets very upset when you try to make him see things."
"He's married to Romulo's daughter for Christ's sake."
"Sooner or later it will catch up with him.It always does.
We spent the evening watchingJibaro and Estrada go through their paces.Perez had everything at that time.He was tall,had a long reach,and was strong. Romulo had taught him the skills to go along with what God gave him. Estrada was not as talented but he worked very hard.It was like he wanted to keep up with Jibaro.
The fight with Lora was more or less a breeze.The Columbian judge couldn't even fudge the scoring Lora's way. Jibaro was the champ and he was The Toast Of TJ.It was also the time Julio Cesar Chavez was leaving his mark. Chavez would become the macho man of Mexican boxing.But in Tijuana all they could talk about was Jibaro.
But it wasn't long before Perez began to unravel.The burning the candle at both ends was catching up with him.In 1991 he lost his title to Greg Richardson at The Forum .A little later he was stopped by Wilfredo Vasquez who he had an easy time with before becoming champion. Jibaro had lost the zeal. He wasn't the same. He looked like he didn't have his heart in it anymore.After Genaro Hernandez knocked him out in LA Jibaro was back in Tijuana fighting stiffs.in 2000 he called it quits.By that time I had lost interest.
A few years ago I went to The CREA Gym to see how things were going. There was Romulo Quirarte still.But there weren't any Jibaro Perez's or Dinamita Estrada's.Romulo was there mainly he told me to keep the doors open so the kids would have a place to exercise and keep away from the riff raff that is becoming more and more of a problem that there doesn't seem nothing anyone can do about . I asked him how things were going. I asked him if there were any more fighters like Jibaro in the gym. He kind of laughed and said no but then added that Jibaro's son comes in to workout.He's a dentist.Jibaro has another wife. He has another family and is happy. And I can remember when he wiped the smile off Happy Lora's face.
Raul Perez Jr.
"What kind of name is that?"said Mancillas as we were sitting in the cafeteria at Cetys having a cup of coffee before we were to go out on the practice field.
"What do you mean?"I asked him.
"You know.Happy Lora.How can a fighter have a name like "Happy?"
"Isn't his real name Miguel?"
"But he likes to be called Happy.What kind of name is that for a fighter? Jibaro will kill him."
"Are you going up to The Forum to watch the fight?"I asked him.
"No.I can watch it here in Tijuana for free."
"That's good."
"There are plenty of bars in Playas."
"I have to pay for it in San Diego so I'll just have to wait and find out the next day."
"Why don't you come with us?"
"You guys will keep me up all night.I'll just wait."
That wasn't a very macho thing to say.
Jibaro Perez was the pride of Tijuana. He was going to fight the Colombian,Miguel"Happy" Lora for the bantamweight championship at The Forum in Los Angeles.The smart money was on Perez.He had run up an impressive record losing only once in over 40 fights. The loss was typical for a fighter of his stature. in Mexico. He lost when he dropped a decision to a no name fighter in Mexico City. Anything can happen when two Mexican fighters get in the ring. You can throw out all the win streaks.Ask Joe Becerra when he faced the little known Eloy Sanchez.
Jibaro was training at The Crea Gym in the Rio where it was the hotbed for all the top boys in town. Dinamita Estrada was training with Perez with Romulo Quirarte was handling the two.I was with the football team at Cetys at the time and one of the coaches,Sergio Rhodes,was a compadre of Quirarte. After practice we'd go down to the CREA and watch the fighters train.JIbaro had recently married Quirarte's daughter and they had a son.
"I'm worried about JIbaro,"said Sergio as we drove down in my car to the CREA to watch the workouts.
"What's the matter?"
"He's hanging around the wrong people. Romulo is trying to not think about it but it's coming out in the open."
"Romulo's done so much for him.Hell,the kid couldn't even write his name in the beginning.Why in the hell do you think they call him Jibaro?"
"You can't tell Jibaro nothing.He gets very upset when you try to make him see things."
"He's married to Romulo's daughter for Christ's sake."
"Sooner or later it will catch up with him.It always does.
We spent the evening watchingJibaro and Estrada go through their paces.Perez had everything at that time.He was tall,had a long reach,and was strong. Romulo had taught him the skills to go along with what God gave him. Estrada was not as talented but he worked very hard.It was like he wanted to keep up with Jibaro.
The fight with Lora was more or less a breeze.The Columbian judge couldn't even fudge the scoring Lora's way. Jibaro was the champ and he was The Toast Of TJ.It was also the time Julio Cesar Chavez was leaving his mark. Chavez would become the macho man of Mexican boxing.But in Tijuana all they could talk about was Jibaro.
But it wasn't long before Perez began to unravel.The burning the candle at both ends was catching up with him.In 1991 he lost his title to Greg Richardson at The Forum .A little later he was stopped by Wilfredo Vasquez who he had an easy time with before becoming champion. Jibaro had lost the zeal. He wasn't the same. He looked like he didn't have his heart in it anymore.After Genaro Hernandez knocked him out in LA Jibaro was back in Tijuana fighting stiffs.in 2000 he called it quits.By that time I had lost interest.
A few years ago I went to The CREA Gym to see how things were going. There was Romulo Quirarte still.But there weren't any Jibaro Perez's or Dinamita Estrada's.Romulo was there mainly he told me to keep the doors open so the kids would have a place to exercise and keep away from the riff raff that is becoming more and more of a problem that there doesn't seem nothing anyone can do about . I asked him how things were going. I asked him if there were any more fighters like Jibaro in the gym. He kind of laughed and said no but then added that Jibaro's son comes in to workout.He's a dentist.Jibaro has another wife. He has another family and is happy. And I can remember when he wiped the smile off Happy Lora's face.
Raul Perez Jr.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
A Long Day's Journey Into Fight
The journeyman fighter is not a great fighter. He never is a champion. He never even gets a shot at a title unless he's called on the phone by a frantic promoter who is in desperate need of his services because the challenger has pulled out of the fight for any of numerous reasons. It's a last minute deal. The journeyman sub makes a go of it but is outmatched. They all give him a pat on the back and he flies home and waits for another call. His future is as clear as a fog. He may fight in Hoboken next week. Then hop a plane and find him in ring in Oklahoma City the following Saturday night. And who knows,they may need him on short notice in Paris,France before the month is over.
The journeyman fighter is usually in the gym everyday. He's not in championship caliber shape. He goes to the gym to keep his edge. I once heard Denny Moyer say that if he didn't go the gym for two weeks he'd lose his timing. It's so hard to acquire skills,and you start losing it so fast if you don't go to the gym for a couple of weeks.
The journeyman fighter, to be recognized by that tag, has to have a lot of fights under his belt. A minimum of 50 or 60 fights to be a journeyman fighter. More likely over a hundred to play it safe. Oh,he wins most of the time. But he loses a lot too. It doesn't make a difference if his chin is a little suspect. He'll lose to the best fighters,maybe win one or two,then earn a step up, ,and then get put back in his place.He usually never breaks into the top 10.If he does,he squeaks in at maybe number 9 or 10,but then disappears from the list after having a cup of coffee.
Over the period of my watching the cards in the Southland I remember some legitimate journeymen fighters.Marcos Geraldo pops into mind. He fought all over,but mainly in the Southland and Tijuana. When Ray Leonard wanted to feel what a middleweight was like in the ring he booked Geraldo to a fight.It went the full ten. After the fight Sugar Ray said that what impressed him about Geraldo was his strength. Oh,Ray was too fast for him.That's usually the case. The journeyman fighter doesn't get to the other guy's chin before he finds his whiskers.Sometimes it's a matter of power,but most often it's a lack of speed that keeps the journeyman fighter from getting into the Hall Of Fame..Geraldo went the distance with Ray, and then took a crack at Tommy Hearns, and wasn't around to answer the bell for round number 2.Mexican fighters for the most part are slow starters.They usually have to get smacked in the mouth before they wake up.Hearns always came out of the gate firing. With Tommy's guns it was goodnight Marcos.
Ronnie Wilson was another journeyman fighter made San Diego his base but had his passport stamped to the max.A Canadian,he came to San Diego and found plenty of action vying with the area middies and light heavyweights.He looked like he was going to break through but he always failed in his quest to be the top gun in the Southland because Mike Quarry could always outdraw him. He lost to Mike 3 out of 3. But you can't say that Ronnie was ready to throw in the towel.He was in the gym everyday,and he was in the bar after practice.He went through life like a racehorse on steroids until he just wore out.He was a bleeder and he'd be in there for the next fight with his face not properly healed and the band aids still a little bloody..In the end he was a mess.He was a late replacement for a fight across the pond with the up and coming Chris Finnegan.He gave Finnegan a pretty good tussle. I remember the Brit announcers referring to Wilson as "The promoters fighter."You could always count on Ronnie for an emergency. Ronnie thought he beat Finnegan.He stewed about that fight the rest of his life. It was close,but no cigar.
The journeyman fighter, like I said, is not a great fighter..He might get the 11th hour phone call to fill in to fight the champ but you'll never see him leaving the ring with he crown atop his head.But that doesn't mean he's a fighter without merit. He's no tomato can. The journeyman fighter is the backbone of the sport. You can only have so many fighters that are legit contenders and champions(Although today there's an abundance of fighters who are "recognized" as being A One contenders and title holders that boxing is losing its credibility)
It's easy to talk about the Ali's and Robinson's of bygone days.It's when you've had a few drinks under you belt and you're sitting with someone who remembers it all and say"Remember that fight down at the ol' arena when ...?"It's like you're in a special club. You've got something to talk about that sets you apart from the everyday.
Sugar Ray Leonard.He remembers Marcos Geraldo
The journeyman fighter is not a great fighter. He never is a champion. He never even gets a shot at a title unless he's called on the phone by a frantic promoter who is in desperate need of his services because the challenger has pulled out of the fight for any of numerous reasons. It's a last minute deal. The journeyman sub makes a go of it but is outmatched. They all give him a pat on the back and he flies home and waits for another call. His future is as clear as a fog. He may fight in Hoboken next week. Then hop a plane and find him in ring in Oklahoma City the following Saturday night. And who knows,they may need him on short notice in Paris,France before the month is over.
The journeyman fighter is usually in the gym everyday. He's not in championship caliber shape. He goes to the gym to keep his edge. I once heard Denny Moyer say that if he didn't go the gym for two weeks he'd lose his timing. It's so hard to acquire skills,and you start losing it so fast if you don't go to the gym for a couple of weeks.
The journeyman fighter, to be recognized by that tag, has to have a lot of fights under his belt. A minimum of 50 or 60 fights to be a journeyman fighter. More likely over a hundred to play it safe. Oh,he wins most of the time. But he loses a lot too. It doesn't make a difference if his chin is a little suspect. He'll lose to the best fighters,maybe win one or two,then earn a step up, ,and then get put back in his place.He usually never breaks into the top 10.If he does,he squeaks in at maybe number 9 or 10,but then disappears from the list after having a cup of coffee.
Over the period of my watching the cards in the Southland I remember some legitimate journeymen fighters.Marcos Geraldo pops into mind. He fought all over,but mainly in the Southland and Tijuana. When Ray Leonard wanted to feel what a middleweight was like in the ring he booked Geraldo to a fight.It went the full ten. After the fight Sugar Ray said that what impressed him about Geraldo was his strength. Oh,Ray was too fast for him.That's usually the case. The journeyman fighter doesn't get to the other guy's chin before he finds his whiskers.Sometimes it's a matter of power,but most often it's a lack of speed that keeps the journeyman fighter from getting into the Hall Of Fame..Geraldo went the distance with Ray, and then took a crack at Tommy Hearns, and wasn't around to answer the bell for round number 2.Mexican fighters for the most part are slow starters.They usually have to get smacked in the mouth before they wake up.Hearns always came out of the gate firing. With Tommy's guns it was goodnight Marcos.
Ronnie Wilson was another journeyman fighter made San Diego his base but had his passport stamped to the max.A Canadian,he came to San Diego and found plenty of action vying with the area middies and light heavyweights.He looked like he was going to break through but he always failed in his quest to be the top gun in the Southland because Mike Quarry could always outdraw him. He lost to Mike 3 out of 3. But you can't say that Ronnie was ready to throw in the towel.He was in the gym everyday,and he was in the bar after practice.He went through life like a racehorse on steroids until he just wore out.He was a bleeder and he'd be in there for the next fight with his face not properly healed and the band aids still a little bloody..In the end he was a mess.He was a late replacement for a fight across the pond with the up and coming Chris Finnegan.He gave Finnegan a pretty good tussle. I remember the Brit announcers referring to Wilson as "The promoters fighter."You could always count on Ronnie for an emergency. Ronnie thought he beat Finnegan.He stewed about that fight the rest of his life. It was close,but no cigar.
The journeyman fighter, like I said, is not a great fighter..He might get the 11th hour phone call to fill in to fight the champ but you'll never see him leaving the ring with he crown atop his head.But that doesn't mean he's a fighter without merit. He's no tomato can. The journeyman fighter is the backbone of the sport. You can only have so many fighters that are legit contenders and champions(Although today there's an abundance of fighters who are "recognized" as being A One contenders and title holders that boxing is losing its credibility)
It's easy to talk about the Ali's and Robinson's of bygone days.It's when you've had a few drinks under you belt and you're sitting with someone who remembers it all and say"Remember that fight down at the ol' arena when ...?"It's like you're in a special club. You've got something to talk about that sets you apart from the everyday.
Sugar Ray Leonard.He remembers Marcos Geraldo
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Nothing Left Behind
Every time we'd go to Jiquilpan we'd make a point of driving up the mountain to the ranchita where my wife was born,Paredones. The farm where she was born is not there anymore,but we always made a point of visiting her cousin's place that is just down the road from where she was born. He lived there with his wife and four kids,two boys and two girls,who worked the place with him and his wife. The kids did go to school but they were getting to the age where they were needed more on the ranch.There were cows to milk,goats to feed,pigs to be slaughtered,nectarines to be picked. There where no days off for the animals so no days off for anyone period.What was harvested and dressed was taken to the markets below in Jiquilpan and provisions bought and then hauled up the mountain in the old truck.The callouses on their hands were there for life.They couldn't remember a time when they didn't have callouses.Grime was imbedded in their skin and hued in their skin tone.Their clothes were old and worn and comfortable.
Usually it was my wife and me and maybe my nephew Chelis and his wife and kids and maybe one of my grandkids that would load ourselves in the car and trek up the mountain to visit my wife's uncle's place. His name was Elario and his wife was named Guadalupe and they were a few years younger than my wife but could have passed for her parents. Everyone would sit on the porch and talk and eat and drink something.The kids would run around and play and play with with animals.There were always chickens and and dogs running around and we'd watch the kids play and sit and look out at the hills sectioned by the fenceposts that were made from sawed branches of the oak trees and tied with barbed wire.The ground was always wet and muddy and anyone who went out to the fields wore rubber boots. The air was brisk and fresh and smelled of horse dung and smoke from burning fires We'd sit on the porch and talk about family and who was still living and who were not and what ailments and who had gone away to live in El Norte.
"My sister's son works in Indio,"said Elario one afternoon as we were sitting on chairs on the porch eating gorditas that his wife Guadaluope had just made by hand and were hot and tasted wonderful.All the chairs were different.
.We were drinking beer out of the can and it wasn't too cold. A radio played old songs and the sound was low that we could speak above it with no problem.
He's there alone,"Elario went on."In September he'll send for his wife."
"How about his son?"asked my wife.
"Later when he has enough money to pay the coyote he'll send for him."
Children are always more money to bring across the border.
"Rogelio,"said Elario."I remember when you brought my brother's kids across the border in your blue van."
"It's different now.Back then all I'd have to do is put the kids in the back seat and then I'd tell the border guard that I was 'American' and then show him my wife's green card and say that the kids were ours and off we'd go.Now everyone has to show an ID."
Back then I would never try to bring an adult across,only little kids. I did that quite a few times.I could have made a lot of money but because the kids were family I asked for nothing.Those kids are now adults.It meant an awful lot to them and their parents.I hardly think of it anymore.
"We're thinking of going to California,"said Elario."It's too difficult here anymore. My nephew says that there is work where he's at."
"If you go who will take care of your place?"
"There is always someone in the family who can stay here and try to keep things going."
We talked for hours and Guadalupe came out of the kitchen with a big plate of sliced cucumbers and oranges with sliced limes and a bottle of crushed red pepper to garnish. After finishing everything we got up to leave.
"When will you be back?"asked Elario.
"Next year,"I answered.
"Si Dios quiere,"added my wife
The next year we came back. When I parked the car in front I could see some of the windows were broken and that part of the porch was burnt. There were no animals. The air was still and the house was empty. We asked a man walking on the dirt road out front if he knew where anyone was.He said he didn't know. He said one day they all left. We asked him where they went. He said he didn't know and kept walking.
Every time we'd go to Jiquilpan we'd make a point of driving up the mountain to the ranchita where my wife was born,Paredones. The farm where she was born is not there anymore,but we always made a point of visiting her cousin's place that is just down the road from where she was born. He lived there with his wife and four kids,two boys and two girls,who worked the place with him and his wife. The kids did go to school but they were getting to the age where they were needed more on the ranch.There were cows to milk,goats to feed,pigs to be slaughtered,nectarines to be picked. There where no days off for the animals so no days off for anyone period.What was harvested and dressed was taken to the markets below in Jiquilpan and provisions bought and then hauled up the mountain in the old truck.The callouses on their hands were there for life.They couldn't remember a time when they didn't have callouses.Grime was imbedded in their skin and hued in their skin tone.Their clothes were old and worn and comfortable.
Usually it was my wife and me and maybe my nephew Chelis and his wife and kids and maybe one of my grandkids that would load ourselves in the car and trek up the mountain to visit my wife's uncle's place. His name was Elario and his wife was named Guadalupe and they were a few years younger than my wife but could have passed for her parents. Everyone would sit on the porch and talk and eat and drink something.The kids would run around and play and play with with animals.There were always chickens and and dogs running around and we'd watch the kids play and sit and look out at the hills sectioned by the fenceposts that were made from sawed branches of the oak trees and tied with barbed wire.The ground was always wet and muddy and anyone who went out to the fields wore rubber boots. The air was brisk and fresh and smelled of horse dung and smoke from burning fires We'd sit on the porch and talk about family and who was still living and who were not and what ailments and who had gone away to live in El Norte.
"My sister's son works in Indio,"said Elario one afternoon as we were sitting on chairs on the porch eating gorditas that his wife Guadaluope had just made by hand and were hot and tasted wonderful.All the chairs were different.
.We were drinking beer out of the can and it wasn't too cold. A radio played old songs and the sound was low that we could speak above it with no problem.
He's there alone,"Elario went on."In September he'll send for his wife."
"How about his son?"asked my wife.
"Later when he has enough money to pay the coyote he'll send for him."
Children are always more money to bring across the border.
"Rogelio,"said Elario."I remember when you brought my brother's kids across the border in your blue van."
"It's different now.Back then all I'd have to do is put the kids in the back seat and then I'd tell the border guard that I was 'American' and then show him my wife's green card and say that the kids were ours and off we'd go.Now everyone has to show an ID."
Back then I would never try to bring an adult across,only little kids. I did that quite a few times.I could have made a lot of money but because the kids were family I asked for nothing.Those kids are now adults.It meant an awful lot to them and their parents.I hardly think of it anymore.
"We're thinking of going to California,"said Elario."It's too difficult here anymore. My nephew says that there is work where he's at."
"If you go who will take care of your place?"
"There is always someone in the family who can stay here and try to keep things going."
We talked for hours and Guadalupe came out of the kitchen with a big plate of sliced cucumbers and oranges with sliced limes and a bottle of crushed red pepper to garnish. After finishing everything we got up to leave.
"When will you be back?"asked Elario.
"Next year,"I answered.
"Si Dios quiere,"added my wife
The next year we came back. When I parked the car in front I could see some of the windows were broken and that part of the porch was burnt. There were no animals. The air was still and the house was empty. We asked a man walking on the dirt road out front if he knew where anyone was.He said he didn't know. He said one day they all left. We asked him where they went. He said he didn't know and kept walking.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
The Flop Of The Century
It was no one's fault.After Uncle Sam finally gave Muhammad Ali a pass to resume his fighting career,the whole world was on the edge of their seats to see him fight Joe Frazier. The only boxing institution that still recognized Ali as the true champion was Ring Magazine( they referred to him as Cassius Clay because that was his "Christian" name he was born with)because he had not lost his title in the ring and never announced his retirement.I could buy that but that wasn't really a big issue. You had Joe Frazier who was undefeated and looked unstoppable against the undefeated Ali who had turned the face of boxing inside out and put the sport back on its feet again after having to suffer through sleeping sickness with Floyd Patterson,Ingemar Johansson,and Sonny Liston.Ali was the talk of the sports' world. The recognized face on the planet.You either loved him or hated him.A lot of that depended on your age. If you were a baby boomer you probably thought that he WAS The Greatest. If you were a WW II vet you wanted to see him get his ass kicked. Hell,even a thug like Sonny Liston had our papas' in his corner.
There was a side to me that wanted Ali to win.Before the Selective Service put him out of service Ali was the most beautiful fighter who ever laced on a pair of gloves. Willie Pep and Ray Robinson were artful with their movements but Ali was even more artsy,and he was a heavyweight. There was nobody to compare himself with in the history of the division. His critics would always say "Wait until he gets tagged."Well,he wouldn't sit still long enough to get tattooed.They thought Sonny Liston would be the man to do it but after a round in Miami you could see that they'd have to come up with somebody else.Sonny quit twice against Clay/Ali and with his performances stained his name and moved boxing to page 2 of the sports section.
There was also a facet with me that was pulling for Frazier.He gave every ounce of himself when he fought and never took a round off. His determination was unequalled. If you looked up the word "action" in the dictionary you saw his face beside the definition.
The public was beginning to sway in Ali's favor. He ducked the Vietnam War but by 1970 Vietnam had been an albatross around two U.S. president's necks. The public wanted it to end by any means necessary and the way we were fighting it it looked like it would go on forever.It was the worst blunder in our foreign policy history getting involved with that thing.The fallout is still with us.Who in the hell trusts the government or thinks they are even remotely altruistic anymore?
The tag on the fight was appropriate,"The Fight Of The Century."Everybody who was somebody was there.(Woody Allen,Burt Bacharach,El Cordobes,Michael Caine,Dick Cavett,Bill Cosby,Howard Cosell,Sammy Davis Jr.,Miles Davis,Jack Dempsey ,David Frost,Hugh Hefner,Ethel Kennedy,Sugar Ray Robinson,Diana Ross,Alan Shepard,Frank Sinatra,Barbra Streisand,Ed Sullivan,Gene Tunney,Andy Williams just to name a handful)They held the fight in boxing's most sacred venue,Madison Square Garden, and in boxing's most revered city,New York.The commentators were comprised of Don Dunphy.Burt Lancaster,and Archie Moore. The stars were in properly aligned we thought.but there was a factor that would throw cold water on everything. Muhammad Ali had left in legs in back 1968.
When Ali came back to fight Jerry Quarry in Georgia the fight didn't last long enough so you could get a true bearing on Ali's effectiveness. Jerry did his "cut" routine and they stopped it. Then came Bonavena. Oh oh.What's the matter with Ali? He's getting tagged by this lummox.Can't his legs get him away from this bruiser?Where was the floating?Howard Cosell,who was calling the fight,was determined that Ali was ill.But of all things Muhammad caught Ringo with a left hook(a punch Ali rarely displayed,and the fight was over).Now it was time for the big one.
Ali's followers believed that he would get into his ol' fighting trim again and dance the two step around Smokin' Joe. The world would be right again.But something said that the world would have to live with a different Ali.It was like when Ray Robinson came back after almost three yeas against the journeyman Ralph "Tiger' Jones who was riding a losing streak. Ralphie Boy bull rushed Ray back onto his heels and was smacking him around like a ping ping ball.We saw a different Ray Robinson after that. Ray had lost his legs with Joey Maxim and couldn't move around like he used to anymore. Muhammad Ali would follow Ray's path.
It wasn't Ali's fault. I think he knew deep inside that he had lost his edge.He was in there with a tiger,not named Janes,but Frazier. Joe was at his peak. Ali was looking downhill. You saw Ali for the first time(Bonavena not counting) lie on the ropes trying to mount an attack. He was sagging back against the ropes bracing himself up. Joe would come in charging,Ali would set his feet apart and flurry thinking he might catch him with something and stop his advances, but it was like a handful of birdshot tossed at a runaway jeep. Ali would grab and hold Joe around the neck.Something you never saw before. it was a tell tale omen.As the fight moved on there was a sense that Ali was not going to win.Joe punctuated his efforts with a leaping left that put Muhammad on the seat of his pants in the final frame.After 15 there was no doubt who had won. Two of the officials had Ali behind by 2 and 3 rounds.But judge Bill Recht had it right.Ali losing winning only 4 rounds of the 15.
To throw more water on the fire, a tiresome Burt Lancaster thought Ali should retire. (Burt Lancaster was horrible.He wanted to be the center of attention throughout the going.Everty time he opened his mouth he was shouting from the mountain top with words he thought were prolific.Reminded me of his part in Elmer Gantry.What a ham. The Winston Churchill of boxing commenters he was not.Archie Moore was inaudible.Don Dunphy's heart was in the right place but there was nothing he could salvage.The Fight Of The Century was a bum f--k.
It was no one's fault. Ali wanted to fight better but he couldn't.Afterwards, he said, with tongue in cheek, that the color of his trunks(red)was wrong and the tassels on his shoes weren't "him."Joe and Muhammad would fight two more times.Their fight in Manila was the best of the three. It was a classic.(Though Carlos Padilla let Ali get away with too much of what he was employing more and more-holding behind the neck)Both men well past their best years, but exhibiting unparalleled courage.Again,no one was at fault for anything.
Joe Frazier
Muhammad Ali
It was no one's fault.After Uncle Sam finally gave Muhammad Ali a pass to resume his fighting career,the whole world was on the edge of their seats to see him fight Joe Frazier. The only boxing institution that still recognized Ali as the true champion was Ring Magazine( they referred to him as Cassius Clay because that was his "Christian" name he was born with)because he had not lost his title in the ring and never announced his retirement.I could buy that but that wasn't really a big issue. You had Joe Frazier who was undefeated and looked unstoppable against the undefeated Ali who had turned the face of boxing inside out and put the sport back on its feet again after having to suffer through sleeping sickness with Floyd Patterson,Ingemar Johansson,and Sonny Liston.Ali was the talk of the sports' world. The recognized face on the planet.You either loved him or hated him.A lot of that depended on your age. If you were a baby boomer you probably thought that he WAS The Greatest. If you were a WW II vet you wanted to see him get his ass kicked. Hell,even a thug like Sonny Liston had our papas' in his corner.
There was a side to me that wanted Ali to win.Before the Selective Service put him out of service Ali was the most beautiful fighter who ever laced on a pair of gloves. Willie Pep and Ray Robinson were artful with their movements but Ali was even more artsy,and he was a heavyweight. There was nobody to compare himself with in the history of the division. His critics would always say "Wait until he gets tagged."Well,he wouldn't sit still long enough to get tattooed.They thought Sonny Liston would be the man to do it but after a round in Miami you could see that they'd have to come up with somebody else.Sonny quit twice against Clay/Ali and with his performances stained his name and moved boxing to page 2 of the sports section.
There was also a facet with me that was pulling for Frazier.He gave every ounce of himself when he fought and never took a round off. His determination was unequalled. If you looked up the word "action" in the dictionary you saw his face beside the definition.
The public was beginning to sway in Ali's favor. He ducked the Vietnam War but by 1970 Vietnam had been an albatross around two U.S. president's necks. The public wanted it to end by any means necessary and the way we were fighting it it looked like it would go on forever.It was the worst blunder in our foreign policy history getting involved with that thing.The fallout is still with us.Who in the hell trusts the government or thinks they are even remotely altruistic anymore?
The tag on the fight was appropriate,"The Fight Of The Century."Everybody who was somebody was there.(Woody Allen,Burt Bacharach,El Cordobes,Michael Caine,Dick Cavett,Bill Cosby,Howard Cosell,Sammy Davis Jr.,Miles Davis,Jack Dempsey ,David Frost,Hugh Hefner,Ethel Kennedy,Sugar Ray Robinson,Diana Ross,Alan Shepard,Frank Sinatra,Barbra Streisand,Ed Sullivan,Gene Tunney,Andy Williams just to name a handful)They held the fight in boxing's most sacred venue,Madison Square Garden, and in boxing's most revered city,New York.The commentators were comprised of Don Dunphy.Burt Lancaster,and Archie Moore. The stars were in properly aligned we thought.but there was a factor that would throw cold water on everything. Muhammad Ali had left in legs in back 1968.
When Ali came back to fight Jerry Quarry in Georgia the fight didn't last long enough so you could get a true bearing on Ali's effectiveness. Jerry did his "cut" routine and they stopped it. Then came Bonavena. Oh oh.What's the matter with Ali? He's getting tagged by this lummox.Can't his legs get him away from this bruiser?Where was the floating?Howard Cosell,who was calling the fight,was determined that Ali was ill.But of all things Muhammad caught Ringo with a left hook(a punch Ali rarely displayed,and the fight was over).Now it was time for the big one.
Ali's followers believed that he would get into his ol' fighting trim again and dance the two step around Smokin' Joe. The world would be right again.But something said that the world would have to live with a different Ali.It was like when Ray Robinson came back after almost three yeas against the journeyman Ralph "Tiger' Jones who was riding a losing streak. Ralphie Boy bull rushed Ray back onto his heels and was smacking him around like a ping ping ball.We saw a different Ray Robinson after that. Ray had lost his legs with Joey Maxim and couldn't move around like he used to anymore. Muhammad Ali would follow Ray's path.
It wasn't Ali's fault. I think he knew deep inside that he had lost his edge.He was in there with a tiger,not named Janes,but Frazier. Joe was at his peak. Ali was looking downhill. You saw Ali for the first time(Bonavena not counting) lie on the ropes trying to mount an attack. He was sagging back against the ropes bracing himself up. Joe would come in charging,Ali would set his feet apart and flurry thinking he might catch him with something and stop his advances, but it was like a handful of birdshot tossed at a runaway jeep. Ali would grab and hold Joe around the neck.Something you never saw before. it was a tell tale omen.As the fight moved on there was a sense that Ali was not going to win.Joe punctuated his efforts with a leaping left that put Muhammad on the seat of his pants in the final frame.After 15 there was no doubt who had won. Two of the officials had Ali behind by 2 and 3 rounds.But judge Bill Recht had it right.Ali losing winning only 4 rounds of the 15.
To throw more water on the fire, a tiresome Burt Lancaster thought Ali should retire. (Burt Lancaster was horrible.He wanted to be the center of attention throughout the going.Everty time he opened his mouth he was shouting from the mountain top with words he thought were prolific.Reminded me of his part in Elmer Gantry.What a ham. The Winston Churchill of boxing commenters he was not.Archie Moore was inaudible.Don Dunphy's heart was in the right place but there was nothing he could salvage.The Fight Of The Century was a bum f--k.
It was no one's fault. Ali wanted to fight better but he couldn't.Afterwards, he said, with tongue in cheek, that the color of his trunks(red)was wrong and the tassels on his shoes weren't "him."Joe and Muhammad would fight two more times.Their fight in Manila was the best of the three. It was a classic.(Though Carlos Padilla let Ali get away with too much of what he was employing more and more-holding behind the neck)Both men well past their best years, but exhibiting unparalleled courage.Again,no one was at fault for anything.
Joe Frazier
Muhammad Ali
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Soothing The Savage Beast
Training camp is a rigorous and demanding experience. in order to build the fighter's body into top form and ready to go into battle to withstand what his opponent has to give in return,he mentally as well as physically endures hardships.To offset the pain it's important that the training camp have some degree of levity. This can be as hard to achieve as the physical requirements.One way to alleviate the anxiety is through music.Before getting into that you have to make sure that the people in camp are not the negative types. There's no room for the pessimist.Being contrary can rub the wrong way and divide and never conquer. Sarcasm is definitely not wanted. Everyone has to be on the same page.The dissenters are banished.Now getting back to music.
Dick Saddler,George Foreman's trainer,would bring his upright piano to camp. In the evening he'd sit at the piano and play with the keys lightheartedly adding his gravely vocalizations, and before long he had a chorus in with him. What sullenness that was in the air was washed away by a soft ballad or some bluesy lilt.The air would turn cheery and the thoughts of waking up at dawn and going out to run 10 miles in the snow would be images that weren't so imposing to the fighter in training.Nor to everyone else that was there to supplement ."Supplement" became more like to "complement."
Joe Louis,when he was out at Pompton Lakes,he would have a set up with a record player that would pump in music throughout camp. It gave everyone a lift from all the sweat and toil undergone during the day. His favorites were Ellington and Basie but as he grew older and the music was changing he added disks by Parker and Gillespie to the repertoire.
It's important to have a happy training camp. It can't be like a military boot camp. The focus is on the fighter,not the platoon. Granted, all participants need to work hard together but the focus is on the one fighter. Everyone is not in lockstep.Clay/Ali needed a guy around like a Bundini Brown. Ray Robinson had his entourage.Songs filtering through the speakers at Louis' Pomptom Lakes Camp.And of course Dick Saddler doing his rendition of Teddy Wilson at the piano. A happy training camp. Sounds like a misnomer,but it ain't.
The great piano payer Teddy Wilson.One of Joe Louis' favorites
Teddy Wilson-"I'll See You in My Dreams." Washing the blues away.
Training camp is a rigorous and demanding experience. in order to build the fighter's body into top form and ready to go into battle to withstand what his opponent has to give in return,he mentally as well as physically endures hardships.To offset the pain it's important that the training camp have some degree of levity. This can be as hard to achieve as the physical requirements.One way to alleviate the anxiety is through music.Before getting into that you have to make sure that the people in camp are not the negative types. There's no room for the pessimist.Being contrary can rub the wrong way and divide and never conquer. Sarcasm is definitely not wanted. Everyone has to be on the same page.The dissenters are banished.Now getting back to music.
Dick Saddler,George Foreman's trainer,would bring his upright piano to camp. In the evening he'd sit at the piano and play with the keys lightheartedly adding his gravely vocalizations, and before long he had a chorus in with him. What sullenness that was in the air was washed away by a soft ballad or some bluesy lilt.The air would turn cheery and the thoughts of waking up at dawn and going out to run 10 miles in the snow would be images that weren't so imposing to the fighter in training.Nor to everyone else that was there to supplement ."Supplement" became more like to "complement."
Joe Louis,when he was out at Pompton Lakes,he would have a set up with a record player that would pump in music throughout camp. It gave everyone a lift from all the sweat and toil undergone during the day. His favorites were Ellington and Basie but as he grew older and the music was changing he added disks by Parker and Gillespie to the repertoire.
It's important to have a happy training camp. It can't be like a military boot camp. The focus is on the fighter,not the platoon. Granted, all participants need to work hard together but the focus is on the one fighter. Everyone is not in lockstep.Clay/Ali needed a guy around like a Bundini Brown. Ray Robinson had his entourage.Songs filtering through the speakers at Louis' Pomptom Lakes Camp.And of course Dick Saddler doing his rendition of Teddy Wilson at the piano. A happy training camp. Sounds like a misnomer,but it ain't.
The great piano payer Teddy Wilson.One of Joe Louis' favorites
Teddy Wilson-"I'll See You in My Dreams." Washing the blues away.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
One Man's Music Is Another Man's Poison
I know I flaunt around in the history category of the forum.If the FBI or Scotland Yard wants to find me they know where to look.Today's trip down memory lane was how some of the old timers in the sport put on their happy faces ,when in training, by listening to music. George Foreman(he's in his 70's around my age) would listen to his trainer Dick Saddler tickle the ivories of his spinet by emulating songs that my father loved to listen to.I'm sure George loved to listen to them also because he didn't exchange Dick for a musician that had to plug his instrument into a wall socket.George was old enough to listen and learn.
Then I added Joe Louis and Ray Robinson who brought along the royal tunes of The Duke and The Count to to be enjoyed before it was lights out after a long day of running and sparring and doing 2000 sit ups. But what about today's fighter? I'll stick with the black fighter to keep continuity.
I'll include one of the all time greats.A fighter the equal of a Brown Bomber,a Sugar Ray,or a Big George.What was he listening to when he put on his headphones at 1 o'clock in the morning and took off running through the streets of Las Vegas?Of course I'm talking about the great Floyd Mayweather Jr.
I implied that music had a calming effect after a day of rigor.It brings with it a peace of mind.At least that was the intention. Ali liked to listen to fellows like Sam Cooke and Brooke Benton. They certainly didn't want to rile the liver. But how about Floyd? It's no secret he palled around 50 Cent.He was 50's biggest fan. Today you have to have a gimmick.Something off the wall to grab the audience.Most often it's a name change.50 Cent was christened Curtis James Jackson the III.That sounds old and stodgy." 50 Cent", if not adding credence to his music puts him in the mainstream of the rapper.
So when Floyd wants to unwind he steams ol' Curt and finds his groove.I like songs that have great melodies and lyrics.But that's always a subjective opinion. It's not so much the case today ,but Europeans would accuse America of being culturally deficient.Well,we showed them.Now they love our music.The Brits contributed The Beatles and to their credit they wrote some good songs. On our end,Bob Dylan was the only songwriter to ever be awarded a Nobel Prize.But all that stuff had to do do with the words of their songs. The Beatles could have sung "silly" songs. Bob Dylan could have filled up his songbooks with 4 letter words.
Guys like Gershwin,Porter,and Berlin put their "poetry " into their songs. Shakespeare,Burns,and Browning put their words in books.So there!
But getting back to Floyd and 50. Today's music, I don't want to say is "new" to me,it just ain't my cup of tea.I thought I'd listen to one of Curt's ditties and find out what all the fuss is about. Here's one of many.
In Da' Club by 50 Cent. They say this got 1 billion views. I'd wouldn't give you a plug nickel for it.
I know I flaunt around in the history category of the forum.If the FBI or Scotland Yard wants to find me they know where to look.Today's trip down memory lane was how some of the old timers in the sport put on their happy faces ,when in training, by listening to music. George Foreman(he's in his 70's around my age) would listen to his trainer Dick Saddler tickle the ivories of his spinet by emulating songs that my father loved to listen to.I'm sure George loved to listen to them also because he didn't exchange Dick for a musician that had to plug his instrument into a wall socket.George was old enough to listen and learn.
Then I added Joe Louis and Ray Robinson who brought along the royal tunes of The Duke and The Count to to be enjoyed before it was lights out after a long day of running and sparring and doing 2000 sit ups. But what about today's fighter? I'll stick with the black fighter to keep continuity.
I'll include one of the all time greats.A fighter the equal of a Brown Bomber,a Sugar Ray,or a Big George.What was he listening to when he put on his headphones at 1 o'clock in the morning and took off running through the streets of Las Vegas?Of course I'm talking about the great Floyd Mayweather Jr.
I implied that music had a calming effect after a day of rigor.It brings with it a peace of mind.At least that was the intention. Ali liked to listen to fellows like Sam Cooke and Brooke Benton. They certainly didn't want to rile the liver. But how about Floyd? It's no secret he palled around 50 Cent.He was 50's biggest fan. Today you have to have a gimmick.Something off the wall to grab the audience.Most often it's a name change.50 Cent was christened Curtis James Jackson the III.That sounds old and stodgy." 50 Cent", if not adding credence to his music puts him in the mainstream of the rapper.
So when Floyd wants to unwind he steams ol' Curt and finds his groove.I like songs that have great melodies and lyrics.But that's always a subjective opinion. It's not so much the case today ,but Europeans would accuse America of being culturally deficient.Well,we showed them.Now they love our music.The Brits contributed The Beatles and to their credit they wrote some good songs. On our end,Bob Dylan was the only songwriter to ever be awarded a Nobel Prize.But all that stuff had to do do with the words of their songs. The Beatles could have sung "silly" songs. Bob Dylan could have filled up his songbooks with 4 letter words.
Guys like Gershwin,Porter,and Berlin put their "poetry " into their songs. Shakespeare,Burns,and Browning put their words in books.So there!
But getting back to Floyd and 50. Today's music, I don't want to say is "new" to me,it just ain't my cup of tea.I thought I'd listen to one of Curt's ditties and find out what all the fuss is about. Here's one of many.
In Da' Club by 50 Cent. They say this got 1 billion views. I'd wouldn't give you a plug nickel for it.
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geoffreysadao
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Ray Arcel indicated that Charles started showing signs of the disease even before the Marciano fights. In retrospect, it would've been ideal had he retired after the 2 Marciano wars. Shortly after, he was stopped by John Holman, and when he beat Holman in a rematch, he looked shot. Charles is one of my all-time favorite fighters. Such a complete fighter. Also, he had his interests outside of the ring. He played bass, was an avid reader and spoke Italian with fluency. Quite a guy.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
All The Cats Join Ingeoffreysadao wrote: ↑10 Mar 2021, 12:24 Ray Arcel indicated that Charles started showing signs of the disease even before the Marciano fights. In retrospect, it would've been ideal had he retired after the 2 Marciano wars. Shortly after, he was stopped by John Holman, and when he beat Holman in a rematch, he looked shot. Charles is one of my all-time favorite fighters. Such a complete fighter. Also, he had his interests outside of the ring. He played bass, was an avid reader and spoke Italian with fluency. Quite a guy.
There used to be a picture floating around the internet of Joe Louis,Joe Walcott,and Ezzard Charles dressed to the 9's at the Royal Roost Club in New York City in 1948.The place opened as a restaurant featuring their famous chicken dinners. In 1948 Ralph Watkins ,who opened the place, was having a rough go of it.He was approached by Sid "Symphony Sid" Torin,a local DJ who was featuring the new wave in jazz called "Bop" on his radio shows to put in a bandstand and do "live" broadcasts. Torin persuaded Watkins to showcase jazz musicians like Charlie Parker,Dizzy Gillespie ,and Thelonious Monk to perform. Torin would emcee the broadcasts on his radio shows.His show became very popular. Louis,Walcott,and Charles(and you could include Archie Moore), who honed their teeth with the likes of Coleman Hawkins and Louie Armstrong, made the transition to these young "Turks". Today, perhaps some think of someone like Ezzard Charles as being old school,not up with the times of the day. Nothing of the sort. One of the most underrated fighters of all time he was no square by any stretch.
Charlie Parker honoring Ezzard Charles
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geoffreysadao
- Heavyweight
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Thanks for the reply re: Ezzard Charles, You've mentioned Marcos Geraldo in several of your posts. I always found him to be an intriguing fighter. He would look great in certain fights (such as against George Cooper, John LoCicero and Marvin Hagler) but bad on other nights. Was he just a slow starter or were other reasons why he may have sometimes underperformed?
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Geoffgeoffreysadao wrote: ↑10 Mar 2021, 21:02 Thanks for the reply re: Ezzard Charles, You've mentioned Marcos Geraldo in several of your posts. I always found him to be an intriguing fighter. He would look great in certain fights (such as against George Cooper, John LoCicero and Marvin Hagler) but bad on other nights. Was he just a slow starter or were other reasons why he may have sometimes underperformed?
There were often "other" reasons,and he paid the price getting his license suspended in of all places,Mexico.
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geoffreysadao
- Heavyweight
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
I kind of figured that to be the case about Geraldo. Do you remember a fighter named Victor Abraham from the 70's and early 80's? What were your impressions of him? I thought he was pretty capable, and I only saw his fights against Rudy Barro and Milton McCrory. I know that he was Sugar Ray Leonard's sparring partner for a time.