The great non champions

[elmersalsa]

So right now we got:
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
3. Packey McFarland
4. Holman Williams
5. Jimmy Bivins

Who do we got at #6?

[Onetimeonly]

That is your view. I respect that.

You should, it's correct. His best win is over the second best George Godfrey.

Eddie Booker is another.

I respect that, but that does not mean it is correct.

[elmersalsa]

How about "Peerless" Jem Driscoll at #6?

[Cojimar 1946]

Define "many".

All those who acknowledge that despite being considered the best by many he never proved it by unifying. I wouldn't know the exact numbers.

I don't know if Roy Jones was ever lineal either

[Cojimar 1946]

Larry Holmes might qualify given many do not regard him as lineal

Putt aside his victories against Norton in ‘78 and Weaver in ‘79: Holmes beat Ali in ‘80. He got a TKO over the last man to hold the lineal title. No one can legitimately argue that he wasn’t a lineal champ.

Ali no longer had his lineal status when he fought Holmes since he had retired. So no it doesn't make Holmes lineal in any way shape or form.

Moreover Ali was so shot that plenty of heavyweights could have beaten him at that stage. Beating that version of Ali is basically meaningless.

[Ambling Alp II]

Define "many".

All those who acknowledge that despite being considered the best by many he never proved it by unifying. I wouldn't know the exact numbers.

I don't know if Roy Jones was ever lineal either

Have never heard of anyone that didn't consider Holmes a lineal champion. He didn't unify it because just about everyone considered him to be the real champion. Please, lets just move on.

[oogiebe]

Define "many".

All those who acknowledge that despite being considered the best by many he never proved it by unifying. I wouldn't know the exact numbers.

I don't know if Roy Jones was ever lineal either

Have never heard of anyone that didn't consider Holmes a lineal champion. He didn't unify it because just about everyone considered him to be the real champion. Please, lets just move on.

Not too keen on 'lineal' designations, but by definition, Holmes wasn't lineal.

[Ambling Alp II]

The problem with lineal is that it a little vague. What happens when the champion retires ? Most people consider Holmes the champion after he defeated Ali albeit it a way way past Ali. Every list I check lists Holmes. what it's worth the fans considered him the "real champion at the time". There really wasn't that much clamor for Holmes to unify it. It's not live people were screaming for a Holmes-Weaver rematch or Holmes-Dokes, or Holmes Coetzee.

Maybe we can discuss on another thread. Let's not hijack this thread though.

[oogiebe]

The problem with lineal is that it a little vague. What happens when the champion retires ? Most people consider Holmes the champion after he defeated Ali albeit it a way way past Ali. Every list I check lists Holmes. what it's worth the fans considered him the "real champion at the time". There really wasn't that much clamor for Holmes to unify it. It's not live people were screaming for a Holmes-Weaver rematch or Holmes-Dokes, or Holmes Coetzee.

Maybe we can discuss on another thread. Let's not hijack this thread though.

No doubt he was the 'real' champ.

[Onetimeonly]

The problem with lineal is that it a little vague. What happens when the champion retires ? Most people consider Holmes the champion after he defeated Ali albeit it a way way past Ali. Every list I check lists Holmes. what it's worth the fans considered him the "real champion at the time". There really wasn't that much clamor for Holmes to unify it. It's not live people were screaming for a Holmes-Weaver rematch or Holmes-Dokes, or Holmes Coetzee.

Maybe we can discuss on another thread. Let's not hijack this thread though.

That's why lineal is long outdated. As you said, everyone considered the Holmes/Norton winner the champ when Ali retired. Once there was more than one champion lineal became a matter of opinion, now it's a joke.

[AntonioMartin]

I hate adding his name because his record is not all that impressive...but Andres Hernandez of Puerto Rico fought for a world title and lasted very long before being stopped by both Carlos Zarate and Wilfredo Gomez, two among the greatest punchers of all time, so you could arguably say he was a great among non-champions too...

[bwu]

All those who acknowledge that despite being considered the best by many he never proved it by unifying. I wouldn't know the exact numbers.

I don't know if Roy Jones was ever lineal either

Have never heard of anyone that didn't consider Holmes a lineal champion. He didn't unify it because just about everyone considered him to be the real champion. Please, lets just move on.

Not too keen on 'lineal' designations, but by definition, Holmes wasn't lineal.

Respectfully, he was the absolute definition of lineal. He was the man who beat the man.

[bwu]

Larry Holmes might qualify given many do not regard him as lineal

Putt aside his victories against Norton in ‘78 and Weaver in ‘79: Holmes beat Ali in ‘80. He got a TKO over the last man to hold the lineal title. No one can legitimately argue that he wasn’t a lineal champ.

Ali no longer had his lineal status when he fought Holmes since he had retired. So no it doesn't make Holmes lineal in any way shape or form.

Moreover Ali was so shot that plenty of heavyweights could have beaten him at that stage. Beating that version of Ali is basically meaningless.

There’s no argument here that Ali was beyond shot. But that isn’t the issue.

Ali was the undisputed champ in early ‘78. He lost to Leon Spinks. The latter was stripped of the WBC title shortly thereafter. He then lost the WBA and lineal title back to Ali in late ‘78.

While Ali announced his retirement in ‘79, he didn’t lose to anybody in the ring until he was knocked out by Holmes in ‘80. It’s absolutely valid to consider this a passing of the lineal title.

This is literally the first time I’ve heard anyone claim that Holmes wasn’t a lineal champion. Frankly, I doubt that you can point to anyone outside this thread who would deny his claim.

[elmersalsa]

No response from the forum.

So right now the list is:
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
3. Packey McFarland
4. Holman Williams
5. Jimmy Bivins
6. "Peerless" Jim Driscoll

#7? How about this guy: Lloyd Marshall?

[oogiebe]

Have never heard of anyone that didn't consider Holmes a lineal champion. He didn't unify it because just about everyone considered him to be the real champion. Please, lets just move on.

Not too keen on 'lineal' designations, but by definition, Holmes wasn't lineal.

Respectfully, he was the absolute definition of lineal. He was the man who beat the man.

No, Ali retired and was far from 'the man.' John Tate won the WBA title before Ali fought Holmes. This is why lineal is just stupid.

[AntonioMartin]

Not too keen on 'lineal' designations, but by definition, Holmes wasn't lineal.

Respectfully, he was the absolute definition of lineal. He was the man who beat the man.

No, Ali retired and was far from 'the man.' John Tate won the WBA title before Ali fought Holmes. This is why lineal is just stupid.

Well, Holmes was the lineal champ..

BUT, the line (of "lineal") was really fractured when Gene Tunney retired and no one beat him, so......both your views have validity, I guess.

[bwu]

Respectfully, he was the absolute definition of lineal. He was the man who beat the man.

No, Ali retired and was far from 'the man.' John Tate won the WBA title before Ali fought Holmes. This is why lineal is just stupid.

Well, Holmes was the lineal champ..

BUT, the line (of "lineal") was really fractured when Gene Tunney retired and no one beat him, so......both your views have validity, I guess.

You’re right about the line being fractured. It was fractured again when Rocky Marciano retired. But legitimate historians of the sport agree that Max Schmeling succeeded Tunney and Floyd Patterson was the lineal champ after Marciano.

Lineal championships are important. They give credit to those who rise to the pinnacle. We’re on a Boxing history board, so presumably we all care about the subject.

If we don’t keep this stuff straight, it falls into chaos and nonsense. Archie Moore was declaring himself heavyweight champ when Rocky retired. I once saw an encyclopedia entry that claimed Jack Sharkey won the world championship in ‘29 based on an American title victory. Respecting the lineal chain helps to end this mischief.

Similarly, John Tate’s name doesn’t belong in the discussion, though it helps to prove my earlier point. Holmes beat Ken Norton in early ‘78. He won the WBC title and was the best in the world. In ‘79, he knocked out Weaver. The next year, Mike Weaver beat Tate for the WBA belt. Clearly, Holmes was the true champion. Subsequently, beating Ali put the fine point to it.

The claim has been made that Holmes was not lineal. He beat the top guy, he beat his co-titlist and he beat the last lineal champ: What else was he supposed to do?

[AntonioMartin]

Oh and Bernard Taylor!

Drew with Eusebio Pedroza for the WBA world title in a war!

[elmersalsa]

Oh and Bernard Taylor!

Drew with Eusebio Pedroza for the WBA world title in a war!

That wasn't no war. It was a guy running for his life against a champion that fought like a challenger.

[Onetimeonly]

Definitely nothing close to a good fight, much less a war.

[elmersalsa]

No response from the forum.

So right now the list is:
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
3. Packey McFarland
4. Holman Williams
5. Jimmy Bivins
6. "Peerless" Jim Driscoll

#7? How about this guy: Lloyd Marshall?

Well, nobody objected.

So we got:
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
3. Packey McFarland
4. Holman Williams
5. Jimmy Bivins
6. "Peerless" Jem Driscoll
7. Lloyd Marshall

Number 8?

[Contendeh]

Peter Jackson or Tom Sharkey.

If Larry Holmes isn’t lineal then Jack Johnson isn’t, either.

[bwu]

László Papp?

[elmersalsa]

Peter Jackson or Tom Sharkey.

If Larry Holmes isn’t lineal then Jack Johnson isn’t, either.

#8 is Peter Jackson!

[elmersalsa]

Well,

So we got:
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
3. Packey McFarland
4. Holman Williams
5. Jimmy Bivins
6. "Peerless" Jem Driscoll
7. Lloyd Marshall
8. Peter Jackson