Who was the greatest of the "Four Kings"?

Ruthless-RKO · Post by **Ruthless-RKO** » 16 Mar 2021, 12:28

Who was the greatest of the "Four Kings"?

Duran, Hagler, Hearns, and Leonard will be forever linked in the minds of sports fans the world over. Who was the best of the “Four Kings”?

Last week’s Big Question was on the Estrada-Chocolatito 2 fight, just a simple “who wins?” thrown out for everyone. Percentage wise, it was basically dead even. Estrada won the poll by a total of four votes. He did win the fight (full highlights), but personally, I think myself, every other Chocolatito voter, and my staff picks record for 2021 got jobbed by the judges. But that doesn’t mean I didn’t pick Jackson Marinez over Richard Commey so frankly I have bigger issues.

We also had some awfully sad news in boxing over the weekend, as the truly legendary, truly great Marvelous Marvin Hagler died at the age of 66.

I kind of mentioned this when talking about the first round of Hagler-Hearns, but I’m not personally a big “everything was better back when I was younger and more relevant” sort of person. Nostalgia is a funny thing that plays some tricks on all of us sooner or later. There are dudes my age who will straight up tell you that, like, music just isn’t the same as it was back in the halcyon days when Hootie & The Blowfish were king.

But the era of the “Four Kings” in the 1980s was genuinely special. I know this because I was a little kid when it was actually happening, I wasn’t even a boxing fan then, but I knew their names. They were stars. They were celebrities. If you cared about sports at all, you knew Roberto Duran and Marvelous Marvin Hagler and Thomas Hearns and Sugar Ray Leonard. And their fights are ones that I go back to a lot, even though personally I don’t have any great love of watching old sporting events.

They were all special fighters and athletes. They had distinct personalities, and they were real personalities. And most striking compared to the modern boxing world, these guys all fought each other.

In short, there is a true reason their era is so romanticized and so highly-regarded. They are timeless fighters who had timeless fights with one another, through all the action and drama and controversy.

I’m not going to bore you with running down all their career achievements for you to compare, because most likely you know their achievements, you’ve probably had this exact conversation before, either online or in real, actual life.

But lay it down: Who’s your pick for the greatest of the “Four Kings”? Whatever that means to you — the only thing I’d ask is let’s not count the post-primes of Duran, Hearns, or Leonard against them, really. We’re talking about when they were great, when they were themselves. But really, this is more an excuse to just talk about four legendary fighters.

gilgamesh · Post by **gilgamesh** » 16 Mar 2021, 12:33

Overall: Duran

Head to Head: Leonard

Ruthless-RKO · Post by **Ruthless-RKO** » 16 Mar 2021, 12:37

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Mar 2021, 12:33 Overall: Duran

Head to Head: Leonard

Head to head it's no doubt Leonard. Won the most of the round robins.

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 16 Mar 2021, 13:42

On the other hand, Duran beat more people that nobody ever heard of. When you get down to it, isn't that is what it's all about?

DrDuke · Post by **DrDuke** » 16 Mar 2021, 14:00

Duran. He has the worst head-to-head resume in their fights against each other, but overall his resume is the best and in any case he was in prime only in a one fight against the other three - when he defeated Leonard.

f read · Post by **f read** » 16 Mar 2021, 14:19

DrDuke wrote: ↑16 Mar 2021, 14:00 Duran. He has the worst head-to-head resume in their fights against each other, but overall his resume is the best and in any case he was in prime only in a one fight against the other three - when he defeated Leonard.

Duran was probably at his very best as a lightweight. He was able to move up and be successful. Yes he was a total package. He was one of the best pound for pound fighters of all time. My ranking for this question would be 1. Duran 2. Leonard 3. Hagler 4. Hearns

DrDuke · Post by **DrDuke** » 16 Mar 2021, 14:30

f read wrote: ↑16 Mar 2021, 14:19 My ranking for this question would be 1. Duran 2. Leonard 3. Hagler 4. Hearns

bwu · Post by **bwu** » 16 Mar 2021, 15:10

f read wrote: ↑16 Mar 2021, 14:19
DrDuke wrote: ↑16 Mar 2021, 14:00 Duran. He has the worst head-to-head resume in their fights against each other, but overall his resume is the best and in any case he was in prime only in a one fight against the other three - when he defeated Leonard.
Duran was probably at his very best as a lightweight. He was able to move up and be successful. Yes he was a total package. He was one of the best pound for pound fighters of all time. My ranking for this question would be 1. Duran 2. Leonard 3. Hagler 4. Hearns

Yeah, this here.

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 16 Mar 2021, 15:32

This has been debated on this Forum a million times.

1.If we throw out the third fight, and say it doesn't matter if you win by TKO8 or W15, then they are even head to head.
2. Common opponents-Leonard.
3. Best wins - Again Leonard. Not including each other, Leonard's 3rd best win tops Duran's best win.
4. Bad losses - Leonard only has the Duran loss near his prime. Duran was consistent as well, though he did lose to DeJesus. Imagine if Leonard had a loss like that.

These are the kinds of things we usually use to rate fighters. However in this case, we have to start using things not normally use so that Duran has some kind of case. such as:
1.BS excuses -Duran wins this hands down. Always an excuse when he lost, no matter how lame. Always excuses for Leonard's big name opponents.
2. Vague references to Duran's "superior resume", which is based on virtually nothing.

AntonioMartin · Post by **AntonioMartin** » 16 Mar 2021, 15:36

It should be 5 kings...

Cause if Wilfed Benitez can't be counted for not fighting Marvelous Marvin Hagler, then, Im sorry, RIP champ but Hagler should not be counted either for not fighting Benitez...and I know they wanted to fight each other but Benitez lost to Mustapha Hamsho. Still it should be five kings.

gilgamesh · Post by **gilgamesh** » 16 Mar 2021, 15:43

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑16 Mar 2021, 15:32 This has been debated on this Forum a million times.

1.If we throw out the third fight, and say it doesn't matter if you win by TKO8 or W15, then they are even head to head.
2. Common opponents-Leonard.
3. Best wins - Again Leonard. Not including each other, Leonard's 3rd best win tops Duran's best win.
4. Bad losses - Leonard only has the Duran loss near his prime. Duran was consistent as well, though he did lose to DeJesus. Imagine if Leonard had a loss like that.

These are the kinds of things we usually use to rate fighters. However in this case, we have to start using things not normally use so that Duran has some kind of case. such as:
1.BS excuses -Duran wins this hands down. Always an excuse when he lost, no matter how lame. Always excuses for Leonard's big name opponents.
2. Vague references to Duran's "superior resume", which is based on virtually nothing.

Going backwards from Duran as an old man to his prime. He beat Jorge Castro when he was well past his prime. Castro is a significant opponent to have beaten at that stage of the game. He beat Iran Barkley who holds 2 victories over Hearns.

Davey Moore, Pipino Cuevas, Ray Leonard, Carlos Palomino, Esteban De Jesus 2x, Edwin Viruet 2x, Ray Lampkin, Ken Buchanan.

Plus he was giving some unbeaten guys their 1st losses when he was on his The Senior who just won't retire run.

He was an exceptional fighter. One of the greats.

Head to head of course Leonard has the best resume as he beat Duran and Hearns by stoppage, and beat Hagler as well. He's the only one of the "4 Kings" who beat the other 3. So that alone gets it for him in the head to head sense.

gilgamesh · Post by **gilgamesh** » 16 Mar 2021, 15:44

AntonioMartin wrote: ↑16 Mar 2021, 15:36 It should be 5 kings...

Cause if Wilfed Benitez can't be counted for not fighting Marvelous Marvin Hagler, then, Im sorry, RIP champ but Hagler should not be counted either for not fighting Benitez...and I know they wanted to fight each other but Benitez lost to Mustapha Hamsho. Still it should be five kings.

Benitez is definitely not far from any of them talent wise. I don't think it's that big a deal that Hagler never fought him especially since he beat Hamsho.

No question though Benitez was a tremendous talent.

Leonard vs Benitez is a really brilliant tactical fight to watch.

Onetimeonly · Post by **Onetimeonly** » 16 Mar 2021, 16:24

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Mar 2021, 15:44
AntonioMartin wrote: ↑16 Mar 2021, 15:36 It should be 5 kings...

Cause if Wilfed Benitez can't be counted for not fighting Marvelous Marvin Hagler, then, Im sorry, RIP champ but Hagler should not be counted either for not fighting Benitez...and I know they wanted to fight each other but Benitez lost to Mustapha Hamsho. Still it should be five kings.
Benitez is definitely not far from any of them talent wise. I don't think it's that big a deal that Hagler never fought him especially since he beat Hamsho.

No question though Benitez was a tremendous talent.

Leonard vs Benitez is a really brilliant tactical fight to watch.

Hamsho got the shot for thrashing Wilfred. Antonio likes to make things up. Marvin defended all his belts too passionately. Never ducked anyone.

dagosd2000 · Post by **dagosd2000** » 16 Mar 2021, 16:27

I can see this thread lasting awhile. My pick-a three way tie- Duran,Hagler,and Sugar Ray. Sorry Tommy

gilgamesh · Post by **gilgamesh** » 16 Mar 2021, 16:45

dagosd2000 wrote: ↑16 Mar 2021, 16:27 I can see this thread lasting awhile. My pick-a three way tie- Duran,Hagler,and Sugar Ray. Sorry Tommy

As far as dominance in just 1 Weight class Duran and Hagler definitely top the list. It would be an interesting debate as to say whether Duran was a better Lightweight or Hagler was a better Middleweight. Both are some of the absolute best that those weight classes have ever seen.

bwu · Post by **bwu** » 16 Mar 2021, 17:30

Alp makes me reconsider. While I still think Duran is probably the greatest pound for pound among the four, Leonard dominated him in two of the three bouts. Sugar Ray should be at the top of this mountain.

As for Benitez, he was undeniably great, but he didn’t fight Hagler, it wasn’t Hagler’s fault and he never contested for the middleweight title. There are four kings, not five.

chrisjs1985 · Post by **chrisjs1985** » 16 Mar 2021, 19:02

1. Duran
2. Leonard
3. Hagler
4. Hearns

On my scorecards I think Hagler was 3-0 vs. them but I'm factoring in their entire careers. I think Duran is a top 10 pound for pound, Leonard is a top 20, Hagler a top 30, and Hearns a top 40. All incredible fighters who had unbelievable careers.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 16 Mar 2021, 19:47

SRL. The only one to beat the other 3.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 17 Mar 2021, 07:06

1. Roberto Duran
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Marvelous Marvin Hagler
4. Thomas Hearns

Indeed they were 4 extraordinary fighters. They were out of this world!

Duran had the better career. When he was lightweight champion in 1972, none of the other 3 were profesional boxers yet.

When Duran left the lightweight class after a 7-year long reign in early 1979, none of the other 3 were even world champions yet.

The longevity that he had was mind-boggling.

And even with all his setbacks when he was not in his prime and disadvantages when he fought the other 3, still he became middleweight champion? That's like Sugar Ray fighting light-heavyweights or Marvelous fighting cruiserweights when they were not prime.

Sugar Ray and Marvelous could be a toss up for the second place. I give the edge to Leonard because he won more crowns than Marvelous and beat Marvelous in their fight in 1987.

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 17 Mar 2021, 19:55

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Mar 2021, 15:43
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑16 Mar 2021, 15:32 This has been debated on this Forum a million times.

1.If we throw out the third fight, and say it doesn't matter if you win by TKO8 or W15, then they are even head to head.
2. Common opponents-Leonard.
3. Best wins - Again Leonard. Not including each other, Leonard's 3rd best win tops Duran's best win.
4. Bad losses - Leonard only has the Duran loss near his prime. Duran was consistent as well, though he did lose to DeJesus. Imagine if Leonard had a loss like that.

These are the kinds of things we usually use to rate fighters. However in this case, we have to start using things not normally use so that Duran has some kind of case. such as:
1.BS excuses -Duran wins this hands down. Always an excuse when he lost, no matter how lame. Always excuses for Leonard's big name opponents.
2. Vague references to Duran's "superior resume", which is based on virtually nothing.
Going backwards from Duran as an old man to his prime. He beat Jorge Castro when he was well past his prime. Castro is a significant opponent to have beaten at that stage of the game. He beat Iran Barkley who holds 2 victories over Hearns.

Davey Moore, Pipino Cuevas, Ray Leonard, Carlos Palomino, Esteban De Jesus 2x, Edwin Viruet 2x, Ray Lampkin, Ken Buchanan.

Plus he was giving some unbeaten guys their 1st losses when he was on his The Senior who just won't retire run.

He was an exceptional fighter. One of the greats.

Head to head of course Leonard has the best resume as he beat Duran and Hearns by stoppage, and beat Hagler as well. He's the only one of the "4 Kings" who beat the other 3. So that alone gets it for him in the head to head sense.

Certainly agree that Duran was an exceptional fighter. However look at the wins that you mentioned. Arguello and Chavez for example, had a comparable resume to that.
Take out Leonard's win over Duran, and his resume is still clearly better than Chavez and Arguello.

Yes Barkley beat Hearns twice. Look at this his entire career. There are some meltdowns in there.
Andy Price beat both Cuevas and Palomino. Leonard knocked him out in the first round. Leonard gets no credit for that.
Viruet twice? Well, the first fight could easily have gone the other way with the judges.
Ray Lampkin? He gets credit for a fight that was way more competitive than it should have been? Who did Ray Lampkin ever beat? Leonard beating Bruce Finch easily is more impressive.

It's not like "only" beat Duran, and Hearns, and Hagler.
He beat Benitez. Beat Kalue. Beat Lalonde.

If we are talking about the entire career, lets also look at before they got title shots? How many contenders did Duran beat before getting a title shot?
Leonard beat 8 Top 10 contenders before he fought for the title. I don't think anyone else in the last 50 years has done that. Duran certainly didn't.

If this was comparing fighter A against Fighter B, almost everyone would say Leonard should be rated higher.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 17 Mar 2021, 21:54

The 8 top ten contenders that Sugar Ray beat were nothing special.

More impressive were the fighters that MARVELOUS beat before winning the middleweight world crown.

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 18 Mar 2021, 02:52

I have Duran at #1 despite losing to all the other 3 guys. His LW record, the first Leonard win and the post WW stuff make him pretty hard to top.
People won’t agree with me but I think Hagler is #2. Hagler’s greatness is overshadowed by the fact that the other 3 kings won titles at multiple weights. Hagler did convincingly beat Duran and Hearns. Hagler had one legitimate loss during his career against Willie Munroe when just shy of his 22nd birthday. He beat Munroe 2x later during his 10 year unbeaten run. Most fans and ringside observers seemed to believe that Hagler beat Antuofermo in their first fight. Mills Lane perhaps the most prominent. Hagler smashed Antuofermo to bits in the rematch.I don’t think Hagler retired just because he felt he was robbed against Leonard but because it wasn’t the first time in his career he was robbed. Hagler made some mistakes by giving Leonard everything he wanted in their fight after the money was settled but the only thing I believe matters is that he let Leonard dictate 12 rounds instead of 15. Hagler was winning the later rounds and likely would’ve swept 13-15 taking the decision.
Leonard went 2-1 against Duran but lost what is the most meaningful fight IMO. I do think he would have beaten Duran in the rematch with the adjustments that he made but Duran clearly didn’t prepare/train like he needed to which is partly on him but mostly on his management who were the ones that stuffed up. Leonard went 1 – 1 with Hearns. The thing for me with the Hearns win is that Hearns wasn’t yet in his prime being 22 years old, while Leonard was in the middle of his own prime. In the second fight Hearns was probably still close to his prime while Leonard at 35 was not. Because of Leonards injuries we never got to see the two of them go at it while they were both close to their best. That’s not Leonard’s fault, injuries happen and are part of professional sports. His comeback from those injuries is part of what makes him great. I don’t think he beat Hagler, I’m far from the only one who believes that.
H2H
SRL beat all guys but lost to both Hearns, Duran and at most should have only had a draw against Hagler. I and many others believe he lost that fight.
Hagler beat Hearns and Duran, never lost to either and at worst deserved a draw against Leonard.
Hearns beat Duran went 1 – 1 with Leonard and lost to Hagler
Duran lost to all 3 but does have a win over Leonard. I don’t think Duran ever beats Hearns or Hagler.
Based on the above I will say that Hagler probably deserves to be #1 on the h2h basis.

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 18 Mar 2021, 03:00

Seamus wrote: ↑16 Mar 2021, 19:47 SRL. The only one to beat the other 3.

Not sure he beat Hagler but he definitely lost to Hearns and Duran

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 18 Mar 2021, 03:39

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Mar 2021, 19:55
Leonard beat 8 Top 10 contenders before he fought for the title. I don't think anyone else in the last 50 years has done that. Duran certainly didn't.

Yes barely 21 year old didn't beat a heap of guys on the way up though he must have beat some guys because the ring had him rated in their top 10 in 1971, the year he started fighting at LW. What he did to make up for that though was fight and beat top contenders for the next 7 or so years and unify the LW division. Duran because of his age just wasn't a contender for very long and was the underdog going into the Buchanen fight. How could he have been?

gilgamesh · Post by **gilgamesh** » 18 Mar 2021, 06:39

p4p1 wrote: ↑18 Mar 2021, 03:00
Seamus wrote: ↑16 Mar 2021, 19:47 SRL. The only one to beat the other 3.
Not sure he beat Hagler but he definitely lost to Hearns and Duran

He definitely stopped both Hearns and Duran too.