Who was the greatest of the "Four Kings"?

[p4p1]

SRL. The only one to beat the other 3.

Not sure he beat Hagler but he definitely lost to Hearns and Duran

He definitely stopped both Hearns and Duran too.

My point was that he has wins against all of them but he also has loses against 2 of them and probably should have lost against Hagler. Which makes him beating all 3 not quite as impressive IMO,

[btw3267]

I don't know how it's anybody but Leonard. Hagler would be second. The four kings attribute was because they fought each other.

Leonard v Duran - Stellar records by both going in. Duran wins a close UD against Leonard but gets embarrassed and quits in the immediate rematch. Wasn't like the rematch was ten years later. It was the next fight for each just a few months later.

Leonard v Hearns - Tommy leading the whole way and Ray comes up with the only way to win the fight by knocking him out.

Leonard v Hagler - I wish it would have been earlier. A few years earlier Hagler was such a beast. But it was a layoff for Ray, too. Could Ray have handled an onslaught like Hearns had years earlier? I dunno. But Ray handled everybody.... until Terry Norris so many years later. We'll never know. But Ray did get the win.

Leonard, Hagler, Hearns, Duran.

[gilgamesh]

Not sure he beat Hagler but he definitely lost to Hearns and Duran

He definitely stopped both Hearns and Duran too.

My point was that he has wins against all of them but he also has loses against 2 of them and probably should have lost against Hagler. Which makes him beating all 3 not quite as impressive IMO,

His 2nd fight with Hearns was a Draw. Probably should've been a loss, but a draw officially. I had the Hagler fight a Draw, and can't really argue with the outcome.

[p4p1]

He definitely stopped both Hearns and Duran too.

My point was that he has wins against all of them but he also has loses against 2 of them and probably should have lost against Hagler. Which makes him beating all 3 not quite as impressive IMO,

His 2nd fight with Hearns was a Draw. Probably should've been a loss, but a draw officially. I had the Hagler fight a Draw, and can't really argue with the outcome.

I know the fight was officially a draw but it was a clear loss. Not even Ray thinks he won that fight. The only reason to consider it a draw is not wanting to admit that Ray lost to both Duran and Hearns. I had the fight for Hagler and thought that the best Leonard could have had was a draw. How one judge scored the fight 118-110 says he should never judge another fight whether he was inept or on the take.

On a h2h basis I think Ray fought the best version of Duran but he also lost to the best version of Duran. He got his revenge in the rematch but it was overshadowed by "No Mas" and the fact that Duran's team didn't do what was best for him and give him longer to train. I would also say that despite all of that Ray beat a better version of Duran than Hagler did.

On the other hand the Hearns that Hagler fought was better than the version that Leonard fought and in the middle of his prime years. Hagler took him out in 3 rounds while ahead on the score card. Hearns was only 22 when he lost to Leonard, not in his prime yet IMO. I believe Hagler won the fight and at worst it should have been a draw. I don't believe that Hagler loses to any version of Duran either.

[gilgamesh]

Give him longer to train? He had the same exact amount of time to train as Leonard did. It was the very next fight for each of 'em after their last one.

Ray just fought a smarter fight.

[p4p1]

I don't know how it's anybody but Leonard. Hagler would be second. The four kings attribute was because they fought each other.

Leonard v Duran - Stellar records by both going in. Duran wins a close UD against Leonard but gets embarrassed and quits in the immediate rematch. Wasn't like the rematch was ten years later. It was the next fight for each just a few months later.

Leonard v Hearns - Tommy leading the whole way and Ray comes up with the only way to win the fight by knocking him out.

Leonard v Hagler - I wish it would have been earlier. A few years earlier Hagler was such a beast. But it was a layoff for Ray, too. Could Ray have handled an onslaught like Hearns had years earlier? I dunno. But Ray handled everybody.... until Terry Norris so many years later. We'll never know. But Ray did get the win.

Leonard, Hagler, Hearns, Duran.

I've read the lay off thing is a bit of a myth. SRL fought 3 top fighters behind closed doors that were scored by proper judges etc with everyone agreeing to sign an NDA. This happened before anything was signed wit Hagler. Ray understanably wanted to see if he still had it before stepping in the ring with one of the greatest MW's ever. Those 3 fight's undoubtable helped Leonard shake the ring rust.
Officially Ray beat everyone, you're right but he also lost to one of them. Hagler beat everyone but only lost to Ray. Duran beat Ray, lost to Ray and the other 2 kings. Hearns lost to Hagler, beat Duran, lost to Leonard and had a draw with him.

Unnofficially and in the real world Leonard lost to Duran and Hearns and at best deserved a draw against Hagler. His record against them would be something like 3wins, 2 losses and a draw, while at worst Haglers should be 2 wins and a draw. I don't know why Leonard losing to both Duran and Hearns isn't counted by the majority of people on here when comparing them h2h.

[margaret thatcher]

Leonard beat Hagler fair and square, I know it hurts a lot of guys, but it's the truth

[gilgamesh]

Leonard beat Hagler fair and square, I know it hurts a lot of guys, but it's the truth

As close as I had it I certainly wouldn't consider it a robbery. If anybody won it, it was Leonard. Hagler didn't really get going until about Round 6 or so.

[p4p1]

Give him longer to train? He had the same exact amount of time to train as Leonard did. It was the very next fight for each of 'em after their last one.

Ray just fought a smarter fight.

Duran had been partying and eating whatever he wanted for a few months. He had to lose like 30lbs or something crazy like that to get down to 147lbs. Yes that is on him but his team clearly didn't look after their fighter and SRL ever the smart and calculated operator “I knew that he hung out and partied quite a bit, like I did, but he gained so much weight, so I wanted the rematch ASAP,” Leonard said. Duran infamously blew up between fights, gaining as much as 40 pounds. SRL knew that if he could get a rematch with Duran quickly and not give him time to lose weight before having to fight it would give him a major advantage. That's common knowledge.

[p4p1]

Leonard beat Hagler fair and square, I know it hurts a lot of guys, but it's the truth

As close as I had it I certainly wouldn't consider it a robbery. If anybody won it, it was Leonard. Hagler didn't really get going until about Round 6 or so.

I'll need to watch the fight again but I agree Hagler didn't get going early enough, fought as a righty for too long for some reason. But Ray took huge amounts of time off during rounds and tried to steal rounds by throwing flurries in the final 30 sec. Something he himself has said.

[gilgamesh]

Give him longer to train? He had the same exact amount of time to train as Leonard did. It was the very next fight for each of 'em after their last one.

Ray just fought a smarter fight.

Duran had been partying and eating whatever he wanted for a few months. He had to lose like 30lbs or something crazy like that to get down to 147lbs. Yes that is on him but his team clearly didn't look after their fighter and SRL ever the smart and calculated operator “I knew that he hung out and partied quite a bit, like I did, but he gained so much weight, so I wanted the rematch ASAP,” Leonard said. Duran infamously blew up between fights, gaining as much as 40 pounds. SRL knew that if he could get a rematch with Duran quickly and not give him time to lose weight before having to fight it would give him a major advantage. That's common knowledge.

Leonard was more prepared to win, and he won. There's no excuses in Boxing. If you were ready enough to step into the ring, then you were ready.

[gilgamesh]

Leonard beat Hagler fair and square, I know it hurts a lot of guys, but it's the truth

As close as I had it I certainly wouldn't consider it a robbery. If anybody won it, it was Leonard. Hagler didn't really get going until about Round 6 or so.

I'll need to watch the fight again but I agree Hagler didn't get going early enough, fought as a righty for too long for some reason. But Ray took huge amounts of time off during rounds and tried to steal rounds by throwing flurries in the final 30 sec. Something he himself has said.

It was a very smart strategy. Focus on defense so that Hagler doesn't land anything huge, and then dazzle the judges with flashy combinations to finish the round.

It worked.

[littlepug]

I’m not really into this need to proclaim one above all the others, they are all great fighters in their own rights and all have their own individual bragging rights, boxing was lucky to have em.

[p4p1]

As close as I had it I certainly wouldn't consider it a robbery. If anybody won it, it was Leonard. Hagler didn't really get going until about Round 6 or so.

I'll need to watch the fight again but I agree Hagler didn't get going early enough, fought as a righty for too long for some reason. But Ray took huge amounts of time off during rounds and tried to steal rounds by throwing flurries in the final 30 sec. Something he himself has said.

It was a very smart strategy. Focus on defense so that Hagler doesn't land anything huge, and then dazzle the judges with flashy combinations to finish the round.

It worked.

I'm not denying that it was a brilliant strategy. It was, I don't hate Leonard at all. He's actually one of the guys I like listening to talk about boxing and his career. He is very open and honest or at least appears to be. What I am saying though is that the strategy shouldn't have, for a lack of a better word fooled professional judges in a world title fight. Hagler himself has to share some of the blame for the slow start, fighting as a righty and stupidly allowing Leonard the concessions such as a huge ring (which I don't think is a legitimate excuse) and 12 rounds when 15 rounds was the norm at the time. The only thing I think that can be held against Leonard is, he was probably the first big name to cherry pick some title shots etc. How much of that was to do with the his eyes I'm not sure though so I think for the most part he deserves a pass on that.

Dave Moretti was the judge that scored it for Hagler and while I'm sure I could find cards of his etc that I don't agree with I would place his judgement in general above most boxing judges. Assuming no corruption etc, there's got to be a reason why the guy has been getting a seat on the biggest fights.

[Seamus]

Duran didn't do anything after Montreal he hadn't done previously. I remember reading he was 185 between fights at LW once, and considering how frequently he fought that had to be some serious pigging out.

[margaret thatcher]

I'll need to watch the fight again but I agree Hagler didn't get going early enough, fought as a righty for too long for some reason. But Ray took huge amounts of time off during rounds and tried to steal rounds by throwing flurries in the final 30 sec. Something he himself has said.

It was a very smart strategy. Focus on defense so that Hagler doesn't land anything huge, and then dazzle the judges with flashy combinations to finish the round.

It worked.

I'm not denying that it was a brilliant strategy. It was, I don't hate Leonard at all. He's actually one of the guys I like listening to talk about boxing and his career. He is very open and honest or at least appears to be. What I am saying though is that the strategy shouldn't have, for a lack of a better word fooled professional judges in a world title fight. Hagler himself has to share some of the blame for the slow start, fighting as a righty and stupidly allowing Leonard the concessions such as a huge ring (which I don't think is a legitimate excuse) and 12 rounds when 15 rounds was the norm at the time. The only thing I think that can be held against Leonard is, he was probably the first big name to cherry pick some title shots etc. How much of that was to do with the his eyes I'm not sure though so I think for the most part he deserves a pass on that.

Dave Moretti was the judge that scored it for Hagler and while I'm sure I could find cards of his etc that I don't agree with I would place his judgement in general above most boxing judges. Assuming no corruption etc, there's got to be a reason why the guy has been getting a seat on the biggest fights.

moretti actually scored it for leonard, so if anything you are strengthening leonards case my man

let me guess, suddenly you think lou fillipo is a great judge

[oogiebe]

It was a very smart strategy. Focus on defense so that Hagler doesn't land anything huge, and then dazzle the judges with flashy combinations to finish the round.

It worked.

I'm not denying that it was a brilliant strategy. It was, I don't hate Leonard at all. He's actually one of the guys I like listening to talk about boxing and his career. He is very open and honest or at least appears to be. What I am saying though is that the strategy shouldn't have, for a lack of a better word fooled professional judges in a world title fight. Hagler himself has to share some of the blame for the slow start, fighting as a righty and stupidly allowing Leonard the concessions such as a huge ring (which I don't think is a legitimate excuse) and 12 rounds when 15 rounds was the norm at the time. The only thing I think that can be held against Leonard is, he was probably the first big name to cherry pick some title shots etc. How much of that was to do with the his eyes I'm not sure though so I think for the most part he deserves a pass on that.

Dave Moretti was the judge that scored it for Hagler and while I'm sure I could find cards of his etc that I don't agree with I would place his judgement in general above most boxing judges. Assuming no corruption etc, there's got to be a reason why the guy has been getting a seat on the biggest fights.

moretti actually scored it for leonard, so if anything you are strengthening leonards case my man

let me guess, suddenly you think lou fillipo is a great judge

LOL! oops!

[p4p1]

It was a very smart strategy. Focus on defense so that Hagler doesn't land anything huge, and then dazzle the judges with flashy combinations to finish the round.

It worked.

I'm not denying that it was a brilliant strategy. It was, I don't hate Leonard at all. He's actually one of the guys I like listening to talk about boxing and his career. He is very open and honest or at least appears to be. What I am saying though is that the strategy shouldn't have, for a lack of a better word fooled professional judges in a world title fight. Hagler himself has to share some of the blame for the slow start, fighting as a righty and stupidly allowing Leonard the concessions such as a huge ring (which I don't think is a legitimate excuse) and 12 rounds when 15 rounds was the norm at the time. The only thing I think that can be held against Leonard is, he was probably the first big name to cherry pick some title shots etc. How much of that was to do with the his eyes I'm not sure though so I think for the most part he deserves a pass on that.

Dave Moretti was the judge that scored it for Hagler and while I'm sure I could find cards of his etc that I don't agree with I would place his judgement in general above most boxing judges. Assuming no corruption etc, there's got to be a reason why the guy has been getting a seat on the biggest fights.

moretti actually scored it for leonard, so if anything you are strengthening leonards case my man

let me guess, suddenly you think lou fillipo is a great judge

yep I read it wrong. I still maintain a draw was the best Leonard could have done though.

[p4p1]

Duran didn't do anything after Montreal he hadn't done previously. I remember reading he was 185 between fights at LW once, and considering how frequently he fought that had to be some serious pigging out.

I have read that's why they kept him so active.

[oogiebe]

I'm not denying that it was a brilliant strategy. It was, I don't hate Leonard at all. He's actually one of the guys I like listening to talk about boxing and his career. He is very open and honest or at least appears to be. What I am saying though is that the strategy shouldn't have, for a lack of a better word fooled professional judges in a world title fight. Hagler himself has to share some of the blame for the slow start, fighting as a righty and stupidly allowing Leonard the concessions such as a huge ring (which I don't think is a legitimate excuse) and 12 rounds when 15 rounds was the norm at the time. The only thing I think that can be held against Leonard is, he was probably the first big name to cherry pick some title shots etc. How much of that was to do with the his eyes I'm not sure though so I think for the most part he deserves a pass on that.

Dave Moretti was the judge that scored it for Hagler and while I'm sure I could find cards of his etc that I don't agree with I would place his judgement in general above most boxing judges. Assuming no corruption etc, there's got to be a reason why the guy has been getting a seat on the biggest fights.

moretti actually scored it for leonard, so if anything you are strengthening leonards case my man

let me guess, suddenly you think lou fillipo is a great judge

yep I read it wrong. I still maintain a draw was the best Leonard could have done though.

I must've posted a thousand times here that Leonard stole rounds by fighting hard the last 30 seconds. I had Hagler close.

[p4p1]

moretti actually scored it for leonard, so if anything you are strengthening leonards case my man

let me guess, suddenly you think lou fillipo is a great judge

yep I read it wrong. I still maintain a draw was the best Leonard could have done though.

I must've posted a thousand times here that Leonard stole rounds by fighting hard the last 30 seconds. I had Hagler close.

It's a fornicating smart strategy but does highlight potential problems with judging. My issue with these guys saying that Leonard is a clear winner h2h is that he lost to Duran and should have lost to Hearns in their second fight. I think Hagler won their fight but it was close. Leonard didn't want a rematch anytime soon after the fight and then Hagler got sick of waiting and retired.

[gilgamesh]

It's not as if Hagler had dominated these rounds prior to those 30 second bursts. That's why they worked.

[Ambling Alp II]

It's the same old crap with some of these post. (Though fortunately, some people are being reasonable).

Duran was "partying" for five months and that's why Leonard beat him. Please.
Somehow Hagler got robbed against Leonard. Please.
Leonard actually fought "closed door fights" during all that time he was off before the Hagler fight. That's like saying that if Michael Joran was off for almost 5 years but played pick up games it would be not be considered a big deal for him coming back.

Love how beating 8 Top 10 contenders before winning the title doesn't count. If Duran or Hagler, or Hearns or just about anyone else had done it, it would be considered a big deal.

[oogiebe]

It's the same old crap with some of these post. (Though fortunately, some people are being reasonable).

Duran was "partying" for five months and that's why Leonard beat him. Please.
Somehow Hagler got robbed against Leonard. Please.
Leonard actually fought "closed door fights" during all that time he was off before the Hagler fight. That's like saying that if Michael Joran was off for almost 5 years but played pick up games it would be not be considered a big deal for him coming back.

Love how beating 8 Top 10 contenders before winning the title doesn't count. If Duran or Hagler, or Hearns or just about anyone else had done it, it would be considered a big deal.

What are you going on about? Who said Hagler got robbed? I've seen many posters call it one way or another but close. "Closed door fights?" WTF man!

[elmersalsa]

It's the same old crap with some of these post. (Though fortunately, some people are being reasonable).

Duran was "partying" for five months and that's why Leonard beat him. Please.
Somehow Hagler got robbed against Leonard. Please.
Leonard actually fought "closed door fights" during all that time he was off before the Hagler fight. That's like saying that if Michael Joran was off for almost 5 years but played pick up games it would be not be considered a big deal for him coming back.

Love how beating 8 Top 10 contenders before winning the title doesn't count. If Duran or Hagler, or Hearns or just about anyone else had done it, it would be considered a big deal.

What are you going on about? Who said Hagler got robbed? I've seen many posters call it one way or another but close. "Closed door fights?" WTF man!