Well, people changed divisions back and forth at that age. Same with Langford.Decagon wrote:Why Fitzsimmons at #10? He didn't enter the division until he was 41 or so.
All time great light-heavyweights(post ur list)
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pundit
- Heavyweight
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Martin Sosa Cameron
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1012
- Joined: 31 Aug 2005, 19:44
The lightweights were far deeper than any other division in history.
In my top thirty pound-for-pound list there are about eight lightweights...
... Plus the division had absolutely amazing depth. You can't do a top ten list, you need at least forty places because there are so many great fighters all on the same level.
In my top thirty pound-for-pound list there are about eight lightweights...
... Plus the division had absolutely amazing depth. You can't do a top ten list, you need at least forty places because there are so many great fighters all on the same level.
Why do you think the light heavyweights are richer than the lightweights, Ezzard?Ezzard wrote:I have to go with LHW as richest division.
Also agree with Martin Sosa Cameron on South Americans. By all accounts Mauro Mina was a potential top ATG at this weight.
Henry Armstrong, Roberto Duran, Benny Leonard, Joe Gans... That's four top ten pound-for-pound greats already. Add to that Pernell Whitaker, Alexis Arguello, Julio Cesar Chavez and Barney Ross, that's another four in the next twenty fighters on the list. Then there's the other greats like Tony Canzoneri, Carlos Ortiz and Ike Williams. You have Dave Holly, Beau Jack, Bob Montgomery, Jackie 'Kid' Berg, Johnny Dundee, Lew Tendler, Jack Blackburn, Sammy Mandell, Billy Petrolle, Lou Ambers, Ismael Laguna, Joe Brown, Ken Buchanan, Esteban De Jesus, Edwin Rosario, Jose Luis Ramirez, Shane Mosley, Oscar De La Hoya, Battling Nelson, Floyd Mayweather Jr., Ad Wolgast, Freddie Welsh, Packy McFarland, Aaron Pryor, Jose Napoles, Sammy Angott, Duilio Loi, Nicolino Loche, Lew Jenkins, Kid Lavigne... There are guys like Battling Battalino, Baby Arizmendi and others who stepped up and became good lightweights too.
And that's just the Hall of Fame material. There are even more, but that was just off the top of my head.
Those lot are equalled and surpassed by Roberto Duran, Benny Leonard, Henry Armstrong, Joe Gans, Barney Ross, Pernell Whitaker, Julio Cesar Chavez and Alexis Arguello.Decagon wrote:At light heavyweight, you have Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Michael Spinks, Bob Foster, Harry Greb, Sam Langford and Gene Tunney.
Well, in my top thirty pound-for-pound list, I have eight lightweights but just five light heavyweights. And I believe there are more lightweights in the Hall of Fame than light heavyweights.Decagon wrote:No, they don't, because I'm right, and you're wrong.
Last edited by DoubleM on 12 Jul 2006, 09:25, edited 1 time in total.
I guess it's personal preference. I have Ezzard Charles, Langford and Greb in my top 5 P4P, and Archie Moore is probably top 10.DoubleM wrote:Why do you think the light heavyweights are richer than the lightweights, Ezzard?Ezzard wrote:I have to go with LHW as richest division.
Also agree with Martin Sosa Cameron on South Americans. By all accounts Mauro Mina was a potential top ATG at this weight.
Henry Armstrong, Roberto Duran, Benny Leonard, Joe Gans... That's four top ten pound-for-pound greats already. Add to that Pernell Whitaker, Alexis Arguello, Julio Cesar Chavez and Barney Ross, that's another four in the next twenty fighters on the list. Then there's the other greats like Tony Canzoneri, Carlos Ortiz and Ike Williams. You have Dave Holly, Beau Jack, Bob Montgomery, Jackie 'Kid' Berg, Johnny Dundee, Lew Tendler, Jack Blackburn, Sammy Mandell, Billy Petrolle, Lou Ambers, Ismael Laguna, Joe Brown, Ken Buchanan, Esteban De Jesus, Edwin Rosario, Jose Luis Ramirez, Shane Mosley, Oscar De La Hoya, Battling Nelson, Floyd Mayweather Jr., Ad Wolgast, Freddie Welsh, Packy McFarland, Aaron Pryor, Jose Napoles, Sammy Angott, Duilio Loi, Nicolino Loche, Lew Jenkins, Kid Lavigne... There are guys like Battling Battalino, Baby Arizmendi and others who stepped up and became good lightweights too.
And that's just the Hall of Fame material. There are even more, but that was just off the top of my head.
My list:Ezzard wrote:I guess it's personal preference. I have Ezzard Charles, Langford and Greb in my top 5 P4P, and Archie Moore is probably top 10.DoubleM wrote:Why do you think the light heavyweights are richer than the lightweights, Ezzard?Ezzard wrote:I have to go with LHW as richest division.
Also agree with Martin Sosa Cameron on South Americans. By all accounts Mauro Mina was a potential top ATG at this weight.
Henry Armstrong, Roberto Duran, Benny Leonard, Joe Gans... That's four top ten pound-for-pound greats already. Add to that Pernell Whitaker, Alexis Arguello, Julio Cesar Chavez and Barney Ross, that's another four in the next twenty fighters on the list. Then there's the other greats like Tony Canzoneri, Carlos Ortiz and Ike Williams. You have Dave Holly, Beau Jack, Bob Montgomery, Jackie 'Kid' Berg, Johnny Dundee, Lew Tendler, Jack Blackburn, Sammy Mandell, Billy Petrolle, Lou Ambers, Ismael Laguna, Joe Brown, Ken Buchanan, Esteban De Jesus, Edwin Rosario, Jose Luis Ramirez, Shane Mosley, Oscar De La Hoya, Battling Nelson, Floyd Mayweather Jr., Ad Wolgast, Freddie Welsh, Packy McFarland, Aaron Pryor, Jose Napoles, Sammy Angott, Duilio Loi, Nicolino Loche, Lew Jenkins, Kid Lavigne... There are guys like Battling Battalino, Baby Arizmendi and others who stepped up and became good lightweights too.
And that's just the Hall of Fame material. There are even more, but that was just off the top of my head.
1. Henry Armstrong
2. Ray Robinson
3. Harry Greb
4. Willie Pep
5. Roberto Duran
6. Benny Leonard
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Archie Moore
9. Joe Gans
10. Carlos Monzon
I see that you don't have any HWs in there. I find them too hard to do in p4p lists and so tend to leave them out.DoubleM wrote:My list:Ezzard wrote:I guess it's personal preference. I have Ezzard Charles, Langford and Greb in my top 5 P4P, and Archie Moore is probably top 10.DoubleM wrote: Why do you think the light heavyweights are richer than the lightweights, Ezzard?
Henry Armstrong, Roberto Duran, Benny Leonard, Joe Gans... That's four top ten pound-for-pound greats already. Add to that Pernell Whitaker, Alexis Arguello, Julio Cesar Chavez and Barney Ross, that's another four in the next twenty fighters on the list. Then there's the other greats like Tony Canzoneri, Carlos Ortiz and Ike Williams. You have Dave Holly, Beau Jack, Bob Montgomery, Jackie 'Kid' Berg, Johnny Dundee, Lew Tendler, Jack Blackburn, Sammy Mandell, Billy Petrolle, Lou Ambers, Ismael Laguna, Joe Brown, Ken Buchanan, Esteban De Jesus, Edwin Rosario, Jose Luis Ramirez, Shane Mosley, Oscar De La Hoya, Battling Nelson, Floyd Mayweather Jr., Ad Wolgast, Freddie Welsh, Packy McFarland, Aaron Pryor, Jose Napoles, Sammy Angott, Duilio Loi, Nicolino Loche, Lew Jenkins, Kid Lavigne... There are guys like Battling Battalino, Baby Arizmendi and others who stepped up and became good lightweights too.
And that's just the Hall of Fame material. There are even more, but that was just off the top of my head.
1. Henry Armstrong
2. Ray Robinson
3. Harry Greb
4. Willie Pep
5. Roberto Duran
6. Benny Leonard
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Archie Moore
9. Joe Gans
10. Carlos Monzon
1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Sam Langford
5. Harry Greb
6. Roberto Duran
7. Sandy Saddler
8. Willie Pep
9. Archie Moore
10. ? maybe Joe Gans, Benny Leonard, Jimmy Wilde, Eder Jofre or Carlos Monzon
Of course it changes from day to day.
Yes - and Dave Holly isn't in the Hall of Fame, Jack Blackburn isn't either (as a fighter). It works both ways.Decagon wrote:Yeah. I noticed that Edwin Rosario is in and Lloyd Marshall isn't.DoubleM wrote:Well, in my top thirty pound-for-pound list, I have eight lightweights but just five light heavyweights. And I believe there are more lightweights in the Hall of Fame than light heavyweights.Decagon wrote:No, they don't, because I'm right, and you're wrong.
I have 9 lightweights and 12 or 13 light heavyweights in my top 50 pound-for-pound list.
Thirteen light heavyweights in your top fifty pound-for-pound? Who? I'm guessing I'd have about fifteen lightweights if I went that far.
I would place Ezzard in the Heavyweight division thus ineligible to be ranked at LHW. With that blizzard of arguments out of the way Archie is the best LHW of all time. He would eat Mike Spinks for lunch and Decagon knows it.....but he likes to be controversial and knows he can smoke me out and force me to set the record straight.
But if BoxRec can put Roy Jones Jr over Archie I suppose Decagon can claim Mike Spinks in the top spot. Why don't we just add Leo Lomski and Joey Maxim over Archie as well.....just to give us all something to laugh at.
But if BoxRec can put Roy Jones Jr over Archie I suppose Decagon can claim Mike Spinks in the top spot. Why don't we just add Leo Lomski and Joey Maxim over Archie as well.....just to give us all something to laugh at.
re
Moore at middleweight? Sure he fought at middle for a few years, but he accomplished everything at light heavyweight...not to mention that he spent twenty-two, or twenty-three of his twenty-eight years fighting at light heavy. He fought a few good bouts at middleweight, but none were defining at that limit, certainly nothing to make him considerable for inclusion in an all-time middleweight list! No, Moore is and always should be considered at light heavyweight, but then again I don't limit rating fighters to only one division...if I did that then I would only be able to rank fighters like Henry Armstrong at one weight...whereas he should be rated at three weights!
Decagon has a group of high quality semi retired California based writers working for him. However just like his boxing history he forgets to read the higher quality manuscripts and can sometimes throw out a clunker or two.
As to the question of "all time lists" I am in possession of the "holy grail" of all time rankings. Each fighter placed in perfect order and included in his perfect weight class. This information was channeled by both Edgar Cayce and Nostradamus for authenticity and includes software for yearly updates. It has been bestowed upon us by our creator. For this generation I have been given the responsibiity of overseeing this information. I am under a holy vow of silence and though I could share the info with you I would have to kill you within seconds of the revelation.
I was of course instructed by a higher authority to monitor boxrec and am told though that when I see mortal thinkers throw out blaspehmous barbs such as what Decagon attempted in this thread I have permission to give subtle hints as to the truth of these matters.
Decagon is not fooling anyone by placing Spinks above Moore in his theoretical.
by the way anyone notice that the first two letters of Decagon and the first two letters of Devil are remarkably similar?
Coincidence?.......perhaps.
As to the question of "all time lists" I am in possession of the "holy grail" of all time rankings. Each fighter placed in perfect order and included in his perfect weight class. This information was channeled by both Edgar Cayce and Nostradamus for authenticity and includes software for yearly updates. It has been bestowed upon us by our creator. For this generation I have been given the responsibiity of overseeing this information. I am under a holy vow of silence and though I could share the info with you I would have to kill you within seconds of the revelation.
I was of course instructed by a higher authority to monitor boxrec and am told though that when I see mortal thinkers throw out blaspehmous barbs such as what Decagon attempted in this thread I have permission to give subtle hints as to the truth of these matters.
Decagon is not fooling anyone by placing Spinks above Moore in his theoretical.
by the way anyone notice that the first two letters of Decagon and the first two letters of Devil are remarkably similar?
Coincidence?.......perhaps.
re
What else is creepy is that you mention devil so close to your 6666th thread. You could be at risk for a demon to invade your being! If that were to occur then I would suggest you, or anyone else who may become possessed to move to a place where there is a good three, or four feet of snow on the ground all the time.
All demons from hell who do the possessing are from the circles of hell where it is torturously hot, so by living in a place which is cold and that always has a lot of snow the thing to do would be this…whenever the demon starts acting up and gets out of line a person can take a run and do a cannonball, or jack-knife into a deep snowdrift…I would imagine that the demon would quickly tire after three, or four plunges in the cold and would then chose to exorcize itself! Now that has never been tested, but it seems like a pretty sound theory to me!
All demons from hell who do the possessing are from the circles of hell where it is torturously hot, so by living in a place which is cold and that always has a lot of snow the thing to do would be this…whenever the demon starts acting up and gets out of line a person can take a run and do a cannonball, or jack-knife into a deep snowdrift…I would imagine that the demon would quickly tire after three, or four plunges in the cold and would then chose to exorcize itself! Now that has never been tested, but it seems like a pretty sound theory to me!
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
1. Spinks
2. Charles
3. Tunney
4. Moore
5. Langford
6. Foster
7. Harold Johnson
8. Jones
9. Fitzsimmons
10. Qawi
11. Loughran
12. Conn
13. Mustapha Muhammad
14. Rosenbloom
15. Lewis
To me the top 6 are very close and you copuld easily change the order.
What I don't understand is why so many people dismiss Spinks as possibly #1, without explaining why.
What is the arguemnent against Spinks at lightheavyweight?
2. Charles
3. Tunney
4. Moore
5. Langford
6. Foster
7. Harold Johnson
8. Jones
9. Fitzsimmons
10. Qawi
11. Loughran
12. Conn
13. Mustapha Muhammad
14. Rosenbloom
15. Lewis
To me the top 6 are very close and you copuld easily change the order.
What I don't understand is why so many people dismiss Spinks as possibly #1, without explaining why.
What is the arguemnent against Spinks at lightheavyweight?
Last edited by Ambling Alp on 13 Jul 2006, 19:18, edited 1 time in total.
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4351
- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37