wut are everones top 10 lightweights of all time

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 11 Jul 2006, 16:38

anyone have a list? perhaps top 20 list??

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 11 Jul 2006, 17:58

Ill take a shot , but Im beat after workin like a mule today so the order might be a little off.

Armstrong
Duran
Benny Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Julio Ceaser Chavez
Ike Williams
Bob Montgomery
Beau Jack
Joe Gans
Sammy Angott
Carlos Ortiz
Jimmy Carter
Lew Jenkins
Lew Ambers
Ad Wolgast
Battling Nelson
Mando Ramos
Joe Brown
Ismael Laguna
Mando Ramos

Tough to rank the Lights . IMO.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 11 Jul 2006, 18:28

Overall:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Joe Gans
4. Ike Williams
5. Carlos Ortiz
6. Barney Ross
7. Tony Canzoneri
8. Pernell Whitaker
9. Henry Armstrong
10. Lou Ambers

Head-to-head:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Joe Gans
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Floyd Mayweather
6. Benny Leonard
7. Julio Cesar Chavez
8. Ike Williams
9. Barney Ross
10. Ken Buchanan

--

Richest division in boxing, a top ten is hard. So many deserving fighters are left out. Guys like Jack, Montgomery, Nelson and De Jesus could hang with anyone on the lists.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 11 Jul 2006, 19:21

DoubleM wrote:Overall:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Joe Gans
4. Ike Williams
5. Carlos Ortiz
6. Barney Ross
7. Tony Canzoneri
8. Pernell Whitaker
9. Henry Armstrong
10. Lou Ambers

Head-to-head:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Joe Gans
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Floyd Mayweather
6. Benny Leonard
7. Julio Cesar Chavez
8. Ike Williams
9. Barney Ross
10. Ken Buchanan

--

Richest division in boxing, a top ten is hard. So many deserving fighters are left out. Guys like Jack, Montgomery, Nelson and De Jesus could hang with anyone on the lists.

ken buchanon top 10 head to head??

i would defintley put guys like oscar de la hoya over him. carlos ortiz in his prime beats buchanon too

why is mayweather on the list but not oscar?? oscar was deadly at 135lb

also why carlos ortiz so high at # 5??

i also cant believe u have mayweather over ike williams. ike would slaughter him. mayweather is way too tough to rate cause he had virtually only two fights at 135lb, that being vs jose luis castillo. manassa u know what happened in the first fight

im a huge PBF fan, i see him in the top 10 possibly but not top 5. certainly not over ike williams

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 11 Jul 2006, 19:37

i would take estaban over buchanon too

theone · Post by **theone** » 11 Jul 2006, 20:00

Overall:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Joe Gans
4. Ike Williams
5. Carlos Ortiz
6. Barney Ross
7. Tony Canzoneri
8. Pernell Whitaker
9. Henry Armstrong
10. Lou Ambers

Head-to-head:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Joe Gans
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Floyd Mayweather
6. Benny Leonard
7. Julio Cesar Chavez
8. Ike Williams
9. Barney Ross
10. Ken Buchanan

Both list are very respectable, except for Whitaker being much too low overalll. Also, I dont think Gans would beat anyone on the rest of the head to head list.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 11 Jul 2006, 20:01

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
DoubleM wrote:Overall:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Joe Gans
4. Ike Williams
5. Carlos Ortiz
6. Barney Ross
7. Tony Canzoneri
8. Pernell Whitaker
9. Henry Armstrong
10. Lou Ambers

Head-to-head:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Joe Gans
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Floyd Mayweather
6. Benny Leonard
7. Julio Cesar Chavez
8. Ike Williams
9. Barney Ross
10. Ken Buchanan

--

Richest division in boxing, a top ten is hard. So many deserving fighters are left out. Guys like Jack, Montgomery, Nelson and De Jesus could hang with anyone on the lists.
ken buchanon top 10 head to head?? i would defintley put guys like oscar de la hoya over him. carlos ortiz in his prime beats buchanon too

why is mayweather on the list but not oscar?? oscar was deadly at 135lb

also why carlos ortiz so high at # 5??

i also cant believe u have mayweather over ike williams. ike would slaughter him. mayweather is way too tough to rate cause he had virtually only two fights at 135lb, that being vs jose luis castillo. manassa u know what happened in the first fight

im a huge PBF fan, i see him in the top 10 possibly but not top 5. certainly not over ike williams

Ken Buchanan was not fast nor powerful, but he had true grit, an iron chin, excellent timing and that classic, smooth boxing style. He could box or brawl nicely, and I can see him coming out the winner in bouts against Beau Jack, Sammy Angott and others.

Oscar De La Hoya was a very good fighter... But he was too tense and stiff, wasn't intelligent and a good boxer would beat him I think. Buchanan's rhythm would take De La Hoya out of his stride, while fighters like Ortiz and Williams would gradually break him down. Mayweather is far more talented, he's intelligent and versatile.

Carlos Ortiz was a magnificent lightweight (he'd be #11, infact I think he could replace Buchanan). Check out all those title defenses... And of course those wins over Flash Elorde, Ismael Laguna, Duilio Loi and Joe Brown.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 11 Jul 2006, 20:18

theone wrote:
Overall:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Joe Gans
4. Ike Williams
5. Carlos Ortiz
6. Barney Ross
7. Tony Canzoneri
8. Pernell Whitaker
9. Henry Armstrong
10. Lou Ambers

Head-to-head:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Joe Gans
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Floyd Mayweather
6. Benny Leonard
7. Julio Cesar Chavez
8. Ike Williams
9. Barney Ross
10. Ken Buchanan
Both list are very respectable, except for Whitaker being much too low overalll. Also, I dont think Gans would beat anyone on the rest of the head to head list.

Whitaker just plain didn't beat as good opposition as the men above him (or didn't have as good a record). He did beat some excellent fighters there though, but not quite as good as most of the men above him. #8 is a fair position.

Barney Ross, for instance, beat; Tony Canzoneri, Billy Petrolle and Battling Battalino at the weight, all Hall of Famers; aside from that, his record was more impressive.

Carlos Ortiz beat Ismael Laguna, Joe Brown, Flash Elorde and Duilio Loi.

Etc...

--

Why do you think Joe Gans loses to everyone else?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 11 Jul 2006, 20:43

theone has an agenda against old timers. but obviosely he hasnt seen gans on film cause gans has a VERY modern style

my preliminary top 20 lightweights of all time

- this isnt final

overall/head to head

1. roberto duran
2. joe gans
3. henry armstrong
4. benny leonard
5. ike williams
6. jack blackburn
7. barney ross
8. pernell whitaker
8. julio cesar chavez
9. lou ambers
10. tony canzoneri
11. floyd mayweather
12. carlos ortiz
13. old bones brown
14. george kid lavigne
15. beau jack
16. bob montgomery
17. oscar de la hoya
18. battling nelson
19. esteban dejesus
20. sammy mandell

manassa have u seen old bones brown on film? wuts ur opinion of him??

also u think floyd mayweather beats benny leonard??

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 11 Jul 2006, 20:53

No Lew Jenkins even though he bombed Ambers out of there twice guys?

theone · Post by **theone** » 11 Jul 2006, 21:39

theone has an agenda against old timers. but obviosely he hasnt seen gans on film cause gans has a VERY modern style

Kinda modern maybe, but no one he fought was as good as the lesser fighters on the list. And no, I dont have an agenda against oldtimers. I just dont deify old time fighters just because it makes me seem more knowledgable about the sport.
I've watched films of Armstrong and alot of other oldtimers and thought, Goddamn! I see what everyone is talking about. This guy is as great as they say!
But then I watch someone like Ketchel and think Goddamn! He'd get destroyed trying to fight like that these days!
Then theres fighters like Ross, and I think, eh...he seems solid enough, nothing spectacular. Probably do okay today.

I call em how I see em, thats all.

Whitaker just plain didn't beat as good opposition as the men above him (or didn't have as good a record). He did beat some excellent fighters there though, but not quite as good as most of the men above him. #8 is a fair position.

Whitaker may not have any lightweight hall of fame(Nelson is going in, but as a feather and jr lightweight) on his resume but he didnt just beat, he absolutely dominated a group of highly respectable fighters, afew who probably would have been hall of famers themselves if not for him. He dominated all types, boxers punchers brawlers etc..
As for head to head, Whitaker would have Ortiz, Ross,Canzoneri and probably the rest of the list bewildered and swinging at thin air all night.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 11 Jul 2006, 22:16

joe gans beat jack blackburn. blackburns a top 10 lightweight of all time

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 12 Jul 2006, 07:45

Decagon wrote:1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Joe Gans
6. Barney Ross
7. Ike Williams
8. Alexis Aguello
9. Julio Cesar Chavez
10. Aaron Pryor
11. Lou Ambers
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
14. Carlos Ortiz
15. Kostya Tszyu
16. Dullo Loi
17. Shane Mosley
18. Beau Jack
19. Antonio Cervantes
20. Bob Montgomery
21. Esteban DeJesus
22. Nicolino Loche
23. Lew Jenkins
24. Oscar de la Hoya
25. Ken Buchanan
26. Diego Corrales
27. Frankie Randall
28. Hector Camacho
29. Edwin Rosario
30. Jose Luis Castillo

Yuck. Terrible list. Johnny Dundee? Battling Nelson? Sammy Mandell? Did you forget these guys (and more)?

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 12 Jul 2006, 08:11

There's a definite cut off for me...

No order

Duran
Armstrong
Gans
Leonard
Blackburn
Whittaker
Ross
Canzoneri
Chavez

are all a class apart IMO

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 12 Jul 2006, 09:15

Decagon wrote:Mandell, maybe, but Dundee was a featherweight, and Nelson wasn't modern enough. I rank Gans because his style would work against modern fighters, but I wouldn't pick Nelson over Edwin Rosario.

Well, I suppose it's your opinion. Though I'd disagree.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 12 Jul 2006, 09:22

Decagon wrote:I have Dundee at #11 at featherweight.

He beat and competed with some top lightweights.

AndreWardFan2006 · Post by **AndreWardFan2006** » 12 Jul 2006, 21:47

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Tony Canzoneri
4. Ike Williams
5. Joe Gans
6. Alexis Arguello
7. Lou Ambers
8. Julio Cesar Chavez
9. Beau Jack
10. Carlos Ortiz

~Ward Fan~

barry · Post by **barry** » 13 Jul 2006, 02:30

>>>Mandell, maybe, but Dundee was a featherweight, and Nelson wasn't modern enough.<<<

Modern enough...don't you think it would be a little more reasonable, sensible, fair and really more accurate to not only try and compare the modern and older fighter in the modern era alone and instead try to rate each fighter in both era's...that's how I do it instead of always giving the modern fighter the benefit of the doubt try putting Rosario in a 45 round fight with Nelson an see who comes out on top...in they're primes I can guarantee that Rosario would not put a dent in Nelson's chin, so the question would be...could Rosario last 45 rounds...I doubt it...ten, or twelve...sure he probably wins a point decision, but that is giving Rosario all the perks!!!

barry · Post by **barry** » 13 Jul 2006, 03:52

Because he wasn't a lightweight!!! But if he was a lightweight it would only be fair to rate him up against someone else in two frames...first a fight to take place in Mace's era and second a fight to take place in the opponent's era...anything else is just showing a complete bias toward a certain brand of fighter and really is not a thoroughly thought-out opinion on a fight…it’s like a lot of the research certain people do…only half-assed!!!

scartissue · Post by **scartissue** » 13 Jul 2006, 12:24

Just too mired down to put them in order, but top 20 champs in order of appearance on the scene IMO are:

Joe Gans
Benny Leonard
Tony Canzoneri
Barney Ross
Henry Armstrong
Lou Ambers
Beau Jack
Bob Montgomery
Ike Williams
Joe Brown
Carlos Ortiz
Ismael Laguna
Ken Buchanan
Roberto Duran
Rodolfo Gonzalez
Esteban DeJesus
Alexis Arguello
Julio Caesar Chavez
Pernell Whitaker
Shane Mosley

Scartissue