Born Too Early
When Sid Flaherty summoned Denny Moyer to come down to San Diego from Portland to finish his career and more importantly to keep an eye on Ronnie Wilson from trying to make the hairpin curves going 60 I was very curious see how Father Time,his over 100 fights,and burning the candle at both ends had taken its toll. You could see without even looking at his "Before" picture that he was a tired fighter only continuing to show up on time because he needed the money.His baby innocent face had eroded to a craggy puss held up with the slightest double chin.But Moyer had never fought baby like,and I presumed he wouldn't let sunny California make him seek autographs from the stars and starlets who had fallen in step with him-worn around the edges and just plain worn out between the ears.
Well,as I told you before it was mistake to hook up those two,but Flaherty was no Indian giver.Moyer stayed and so did Ronnie.The watering holes around the old Coliseum you can bet saw some of that purse money on the bar.I'd go to watch them fight and sometimes they'd win and sometimes they wouldn't.They still had enough skill in them to catch a guy off guard who thought he'd have his way with the Geriatic Society. If they wouldn't spill half their blood on the canvas you could probably call your local bookie and keep your fingers crossed.Moyer by this time had fought everyone between 130 and 160 pounds.Early on he had faced Ray Robinson,Don Jordan,Jorge Fernandez,Benny Paret,Tony DeMarco,Pat Lowry,Luis Rodriguez,Ted Wright,Joey Giambra.Rafa Gutierrez,Freddie Little,Manny Gonzalez,Nino Benvenuti,Ralph Dupas.Joey Archer.That was in the beginning. Later ,he would be punching at Fraser Scott,Art Alderette,Sugar Hart,and Carlos Monzon.Denny wasn't picky.
With the way fighters are kept under wraps by their mangers and promoters today there are no more Denny Moyers. It's too risky.If they lose one they might a have mental breakdown,Like when are Crawford and Spence going to hook up?If those two were fighting in Moyer's era they'd have to fight the contenders all i they wanted to make ends meet. Now there're fights with the top guys and their opponents have these remarkable records compiled against names I never heard of.
But if a prime Moyer was around today he could beat Crawford and Spence just on moxie alone.But Moyer finally wandered off to that town they call Palookaville and died in a hospice unable to recognize his wife for quite sometime before they could count "10 and out.". He left San Diego without a good by.
I saw this list that gets passed around like an old hat-The 100 Greatest.I don't see Moyer's name on it. So much for lists.
Denny Moyer
Classic American West Coast Boxing
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
The Fights Of The Century I & II
There were two "Fights Of The Century."At least that's what they were billed. There's the Johnson/Jeffries fight in Reno where the White Hope aka Jim Jeffries was going to resurrect and make the Bible toters justified and happy.The number two is Ali/Frazier I.
I've beat my gums about the Fight Of The Century in MSG. For me it was a disappointment. It was a one sided fight.Ali had revealed sadly, as the fight wore on, that he would never fight like he had when he could do his "shuffle"on the drop of a hat.. Now he had to think about it,and by the time he wanted to employ it it was too late. If there were any Ali dreamers left by the last round thinking he could pull a rabbit out of boxing glove their hopes were shattered when Joe dumped him on the seat of his trunks.Ali didn't want to take 9 and gather himself for one last charge.No.he sprung up like a Jack In The Box to show everyone that Joe hadn't hurt him.Well, Ali was hurt.He'd been hurtin' since the get go and you didn't want to believe it. By the middle rounds you didn't want to call this "The Fight Of The Century."It was more like "The Fight We Hoped To See Wasn't."
All the beautiful people dressed to the nines,the soul brothers and sisters who wanted this night to be theirs;two undefeated black champions .They were headliners, and the world was going to stop and take notice.This was going to be a profound statement for black society and history.But it didn't turn out the way everyone, in the back of their minds, wanted.They wanted Ali to win,and win ,not necessarily one sidedly,but to put on the show of his life.Joe would be smokin' but Ali would be Ali again ,but he wasn't that fighter anymore. He didn't put the boxing world back to proper order.
Ali couldn't show much except that he disproved the doubters that said he couldn't take a punch because he didn't act like a tough guy.That would be Ali's attribute from then on. His chin was as good as his once incomparable reflexes.The wrong mam won ,thus "The Fight Of The Century" was something else.If Ali had won,yes.But he got beat fair and square and the world didn't see Joe Frazier through Muhammad Ali glasses.
Back to the first "Fight Of The Century ,and again the result wasn't what the fans ,grounded in white concrete, wanted to happen- Ol' Jeff would come back after five years of buckin' alfalfa and wipe that golden smile from Jack Johnson's lips.Jeff sure did give it a go,but he knew early on that Lil' Arthur was going to be the bigger man that hot afternoon.Gentleman Jim ,who was in Jeff's corner, didn't help his man by yelling to Johnson that besides having an inferior sepia skin color that was also a coward. He kept it up and up,and while he kept it up Jeff was flagging in the ring holding on for dear life.Then in round 15 Johnson didn't really have to do much to knock Jeffries down for the first time his fistic career. A few ring siders pathetically tried to revive him when he collapsed but it like kicking a dead horse.The wrong man won.
So if Jeffries did what everyone thought he would,or at least wanted him to do,then the white world's take on masculinity would have been again righteous.Same with the second FOTC in TheGarden.The wrong man won.And both boys lost decisively.They weren't even good fights.They were one sided. No hammer and tongs with the outcome in doubt not knowing who was going to prevail. Just that the wrong man won,and won bigtime.
Tommy Burns put up more of a fuss when he fought Johnson that what Jeffries offered. "The Thrilla' In Manila" could have been more aptly called "The Fight Of At least Of The Decade" only because because both fighters fought so hard that it wouldn't be until Eddie Futch told Joe he had a family to take care of and that's why he was going to shut Joe's motor down so he wouldn't wind up blind and he couldn't see his wife and kids anymore.
I know you got to name a big fight something before the first gong. But since the wrong men didn't win ,like most wanted,the two fights within that 100 years were just two fights that were at least something to mull over.The overtones outshouted the action.
JIm Jeffries
There were two "Fights Of The Century."At least that's what they were billed. There's the Johnson/Jeffries fight in Reno where the White Hope aka Jim Jeffries was going to resurrect and make the Bible toters justified and happy.The number two is Ali/Frazier I.
I've beat my gums about the Fight Of The Century in MSG. For me it was a disappointment. It was a one sided fight.Ali had revealed sadly, as the fight wore on, that he would never fight like he had when he could do his "shuffle"on the drop of a hat.. Now he had to think about it,and by the time he wanted to employ it it was too late. If there were any Ali dreamers left by the last round thinking he could pull a rabbit out of boxing glove their hopes were shattered when Joe dumped him on the seat of his trunks.Ali didn't want to take 9 and gather himself for one last charge.No.he sprung up like a Jack In The Box to show everyone that Joe hadn't hurt him.Well, Ali was hurt.He'd been hurtin' since the get go and you didn't want to believe it. By the middle rounds you didn't want to call this "The Fight Of The Century."It was more like "The Fight We Hoped To See Wasn't."
All the beautiful people dressed to the nines,the soul brothers and sisters who wanted this night to be theirs;two undefeated black champions .They were headliners, and the world was going to stop and take notice.This was going to be a profound statement for black society and history.But it didn't turn out the way everyone, in the back of their minds, wanted.They wanted Ali to win,and win ,not necessarily one sidedly,but to put on the show of his life.Joe would be smokin' but Ali would be Ali again ,but he wasn't that fighter anymore. He didn't put the boxing world back to proper order.
Ali couldn't show much except that he disproved the doubters that said he couldn't take a punch because he didn't act like a tough guy.That would be Ali's attribute from then on. His chin was as good as his once incomparable reflexes.The wrong mam won ,thus "The Fight Of The Century" was something else.If Ali had won,yes.But he got beat fair and square and the world didn't see Joe Frazier through Muhammad Ali glasses.
Back to the first "Fight Of The Century ,and again the result wasn't what the fans ,grounded in white concrete, wanted to happen- Ol' Jeff would come back after five years of buckin' alfalfa and wipe that golden smile from Jack Johnson's lips.Jeff sure did give it a go,but he knew early on that Lil' Arthur was going to be the bigger man that hot afternoon.Gentleman Jim ,who was in Jeff's corner, didn't help his man by yelling to Johnson that besides having an inferior sepia skin color that was also a coward. He kept it up and up,and while he kept it up Jeff was flagging in the ring holding on for dear life.Then in round 15 Johnson didn't really have to do much to knock Jeffries down for the first time his fistic career. A few ring siders pathetically tried to revive him when he collapsed but it like kicking a dead horse.The wrong man won.
So if Jeffries did what everyone thought he would,or at least wanted him to do,then the white world's take on masculinity would have been again righteous.Same with the second FOTC in TheGarden.The wrong man won.And both boys lost decisively.They weren't even good fights.They were one sided. No hammer and tongs with the outcome in doubt not knowing who was going to prevail. Just that the wrong man won,and won bigtime.
Tommy Burns put up more of a fuss when he fought Johnson that what Jeffries offered. "The Thrilla' In Manila" could have been more aptly called "The Fight Of At least Of The Decade" only because because both fighters fought so hard that it wouldn't be until Eddie Futch told Joe he had a family to take care of and that's why he was going to shut Joe's motor down so he wouldn't wind up blind and he couldn't see his wife and kids anymore.
I know you got to name a big fight something before the first gong. But since the wrong men didn't win ,like most wanted,the two fights within that 100 years were just two fights that were at least something to mull over.The overtones outshouted the action.
JIm Jeffries
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Afterthoughts
After reading Chris James' biography about Eder Jofre I found myself tying up some loose ends with the former champ. There's no doubt that Jofre's virtual absence from U.S. boxing rings hurt his status to a degree.But that lack of recognition was perceived here in the United States,and perhaps the UK where he never appeared inside an arena,thus it's unconscionable to think that he wasn't inducted into the International Boxing Hall Of Fame until 1992,on his third shot.His three fights in the U.S. were in California.A big showdown with Mexican power punching Joe Medel at The Olympic Auditorium. The winning of the vacant bantam title over Eloy Sanchez also at The Olympic.And then there was a defense against Herman Marquez in Daly City. Make no bones about it.Those scant appearances put Jofre's visibility below the radar. Teddy Brenner,The Garden's matchmaker,wouldn't book any fighter weighing 118 pounds in his Mecca regardless if the guy had supernatural ability.
But there were prominent U.S. names in boxing that ventured to Brazil to see if Jofre was all that he was talked up to be. Nat Fleischer,editor of Ring Magazine and Willie Pep often referred to as the best ever featherweight,proclaimed that there was no one around in the division who could hold a candle to this whirlwind from Sao Paulo.But their words were not enough.There was no audience that could turn on their TV's to the Monday or Friday Night Fights and watch this Eder Jofre destroy foe after foe during the course of a year.
By tuning in channel 12,the Mexican station from Tijuana,I had some luck getting acquainted with Eder Jofre the fighter. His two beat downs of Joe Medel were awesome.But again most of Jofre's fights were in Brazil.To make arrangements for a TV crew to set up operations in Brazil and bring Jofre to the rest of the world would have been a hard task. Even with the influence of George Parnassus,who handled some Jofre's bouts in California,it was hard to bring Eder to the forefront. The Latino community in LA was of Mexican breed,and though they respected Jofre,they weren't going to organize any fan clubs.
Eder Jofre was born into a family steeped in boxing. His father,Aristides and his uncles were the core of Brazilian boxing.They headed up the national and Olympiuc squads.if you wanted to make a name for yourself as a fighter in Brazil you had to look these guys up. So you can say Eder was born into it. He was a good son. He listened to his father and didn't acquire any bad habits. Drinking,smoking,drugs,and carousing weren't in his vocabulary.Aristides knew what he had with his boy and got what he wanted from the promoters. The money Eder made in the ring he didn't squander. Maybe it was all too innocent,and that kept Eder Jofre from being a household name.
The few times I saw him fight on Mexican TV he looked indestructible.But I thought the day would come when he'd hit the wall. Like the time I saw Mexico's unbreakable Vicente Saldivar all of a sudden couldn't draw on his renown durability against a neophyte Kuniaka Shibata in the Tijuana Auditorium.I figured Jofre would one day fall on cue. But he didn't. He drained himself to get down in weight to fight Harada and finally lost,but it was a decision loss and a close fight. The rematch was more of the same.Both bouts were in Japan. After the losses he retired, but then mulled over whether he could still fight at in the upper tier. But this time he'd move up a weight to the 125 class. No more problems with the scales.
Now I thought Father Time would catch up with him. But he took his time and began beating some reputable fighters. When he beat Jose Legra for the title in Brazil I wanted Jose to win and I thought he did,but to see Jofre fight that night it was like he hadn't missed a step. Then Vicente Saldivar wanted to try it again,and without any tune up fights gets into ring with Jofre and gets crushed by a savage body attack.
But everything must come to an end. Jofre's father and brother were going through some rough times with their health and Jofre decided to focus his life on the family.He retired again for the last time undefeated.It's a remarkable story.it was a career almost as perfect as it could get. When I got to reading the comments in Chris James' book by some of the notables,i was a little taken aback about what Ruben Olivares had to say.
"If we had fought I would have knocked him out...I am sorry to say this.He was on his way out and 'Puas' was on his way up.I was still an active fighter...younger and stronger than Jofre.His manager knew this.Even though Jofre would have loved to tangle, his manager would have used common sense and stopped it."
Hey Ruben I saw you get hammered by Castillo and Herrera when you were still supposed to be on your "way up."If you had fought Jofre at that time I don't see his manager Abe Katzenelson nor George Parnassus,nor Aritsides Jofre throwing a monkey wrench into the deal. The only monkey wrench that would have been thrown would have been in Eder Jofre's gloves.
Eder Jofre
After reading Chris James' biography about Eder Jofre I found myself tying up some loose ends with the former champ. There's no doubt that Jofre's virtual absence from U.S. boxing rings hurt his status to a degree.But that lack of recognition was perceived here in the United States,and perhaps the UK where he never appeared inside an arena,thus it's unconscionable to think that he wasn't inducted into the International Boxing Hall Of Fame until 1992,on his third shot.His three fights in the U.S. were in California.A big showdown with Mexican power punching Joe Medel at The Olympic Auditorium. The winning of the vacant bantam title over Eloy Sanchez also at The Olympic.And then there was a defense against Herman Marquez in Daly City. Make no bones about it.Those scant appearances put Jofre's visibility below the radar. Teddy Brenner,The Garden's matchmaker,wouldn't book any fighter weighing 118 pounds in his Mecca regardless if the guy had supernatural ability.
But there were prominent U.S. names in boxing that ventured to Brazil to see if Jofre was all that he was talked up to be. Nat Fleischer,editor of Ring Magazine and Willie Pep often referred to as the best ever featherweight,proclaimed that there was no one around in the division who could hold a candle to this whirlwind from Sao Paulo.But their words were not enough.There was no audience that could turn on their TV's to the Monday or Friday Night Fights and watch this Eder Jofre destroy foe after foe during the course of a year.
By tuning in channel 12,the Mexican station from Tijuana,I had some luck getting acquainted with Eder Jofre the fighter. His two beat downs of Joe Medel were awesome.But again most of Jofre's fights were in Brazil.To make arrangements for a TV crew to set up operations in Brazil and bring Jofre to the rest of the world would have been a hard task. Even with the influence of George Parnassus,who handled some Jofre's bouts in California,it was hard to bring Eder to the forefront. The Latino community in LA was of Mexican breed,and though they respected Jofre,they weren't going to organize any fan clubs.
Eder Jofre was born into a family steeped in boxing. His father,Aristides and his uncles were the core of Brazilian boxing.They headed up the national and Olympiuc squads.if you wanted to make a name for yourself as a fighter in Brazil you had to look these guys up. So you can say Eder was born into it. He was a good son. He listened to his father and didn't acquire any bad habits. Drinking,smoking,drugs,and carousing weren't in his vocabulary.Aristides knew what he had with his boy and got what he wanted from the promoters. The money Eder made in the ring he didn't squander. Maybe it was all too innocent,and that kept Eder Jofre from being a household name.
The few times I saw him fight on Mexican TV he looked indestructible.But I thought the day would come when he'd hit the wall. Like the time I saw Mexico's unbreakable Vicente Saldivar all of a sudden couldn't draw on his renown durability against a neophyte Kuniaka Shibata in the Tijuana Auditorium.I figured Jofre would one day fall on cue. But he didn't. He drained himself to get down in weight to fight Harada and finally lost,but it was a decision loss and a close fight. The rematch was more of the same.Both bouts were in Japan. After the losses he retired, but then mulled over whether he could still fight at in the upper tier. But this time he'd move up a weight to the 125 class. No more problems with the scales.
Now I thought Father Time would catch up with him. But he took his time and began beating some reputable fighters. When he beat Jose Legra for the title in Brazil I wanted Jose to win and I thought he did,but to see Jofre fight that night it was like he hadn't missed a step. Then Vicente Saldivar wanted to try it again,and without any tune up fights gets into ring with Jofre and gets crushed by a savage body attack.
But everything must come to an end. Jofre's father and brother were going through some rough times with their health and Jofre decided to focus his life on the family.He retired again for the last time undefeated.It's a remarkable story.it was a career almost as perfect as it could get. When I got to reading the comments in Chris James' book by some of the notables,i was a little taken aback about what Ruben Olivares had to say.
"If we had fought I would have knocked him out...I am sorry to say this.He was on his way out and 'Puas' was on his way up.I was still an active fighter...younger and stronger than Jofre.His manager knew this.Even though Jofre would have loved to tangle, his manager would have used common sense and stopped it."
Hey Ruben I saw you get hammered by Castillo and Herrera when you were still supposed to be on your "way up."If you had fought Jofre at that time I don't see his manager Abe Katzenelson nor George Parnassus,nor Aritsides Jofre throwing a monkey wrench into the deal. The only monkey wrench that would have been thrown would have been in Eder Jofre's gloves.
Eder Jofre
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chrisjs1985
- Lightweight
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- Joined: 11 Jan 2018, 12:45
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Nice write-up Roger. Thank you. Glad you enjoyed the book so much. Olivares was great, but Jofre was even greater. The closest they came to fighting was at featherweight, but when Jofre was getting his title shot, Ruben wasn't on great form. Of course, Eder went 25-0 at featherweight, so it's tough to go against him, even though he'd have been spotting Olivares around 7-8 years.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Chrischrisjs1985 wrote: ↑07 Apr 2021, 12:35 Nice write-up Roger. Thank you. Glad you enjoyed the book so much. Olivares was great, but Jofre was even greater. The closest they came to fighting was at featherweight, but when Jofre was getting his title shot, Ruben wasn't on great form. Of course, Eder went 25-0 at featherweight, so it's tough to go against him, even though he'd have been spotting Olivares around 7-8 years.
You know by now I'm not much into the mythical matchups.If they had fought in the 60's Olivares would have lost probably by KO..Though a great puncher he left himself open with the hook. Jofre's straight right would have gotten inside that just like Herrera did to him.There was never a point in both their careers when Olivares was the stronger man. Even if Jofre would have spotted him 8 years at the time they could have fought at 125 pounds Ruben was more shot than Jofre.I never considered Jofre "shot" anyways. I know you can't go on forever but when he finally left the scene he still had a lot left in his tank.
I know this sounds catty but I once saw Olivares fight at the Arena Coliseo in Mexico City.It was supposed to be real fight. This was after he hung up the gloves.He fought some guy who had an even record after a half dozen fights.It was a 4 rounder.This kid mopped the floor with Olivares.Knocked him out.Look.Jofre lost only two times. They were both close decisions. You can't say similar for Olivares.For me he got a little brazen with his comment in the book.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Did I Ever Tell You About Jack Dempsey?
"Sit down and I'll buy you a drink.What are you havin'?You want some water in that?No. Ginger Ale"? That 'ill make you sick.But go ahead you name your poison. Say,did I ever tell you about Jack Dempsey and what happened last night?It might have gotten around by now. Well, me and Jack were sitting in his joint down on Broadway.We were at his table by the front just below that mural of him and Willard in Toledo. Boy,did he give it to 'ol Jess that 4th. Knocked him down 7 times,Broke his jaw.Fractured his eye.Knocked out some of his teeth .Cracked his ribs. No one had ever done that to 'ol Jess before.I was there at ringside and Jack wanted me to write about it and of course I oblidged.It was in all the big papers the next day.You probably read my stuff.It was in all the big papers.Well,me and Jack are sitting in his joint like I said and who do you think walks in?Jimmy Policy and that stooge of his Nuzio.Well,Jack don't want guys in his place like Jimmy Policy.You know him .He runs the numbers in Bed Sty and he comes in with his stooge this Nunzio saying to Jack that someone told him that Johnny Drags was going to show up in Jack's place soon and that Johnny Drags had welshed on him and that he would take care of it.You remember Johnny Drags.Yeah,his last name was Dragna. Everyone called him Johnny Drags.Well,Jack tells Jimmy Policy they called him Policy because he ran the numbers in Bed Sty .What was his last name?That's right Peroni.Jimmy Peroni but everyone called him Jimmy Policy.So Jack tells him he don't want no problems in his joint and he's going to have to leave with his boyfriend. Well,what do you think happens next?This stooge Nunzio sneaks behind Jack and is going to sucker punch him.Well I see it comin' and step in front of this big lug and lay him out.Jack turns around and puts two and two together and so he then flattens Jimmy Policy so that he and his boy friend are stretched out side by side on the floor. Well, I was in Dempsey's joint just finishing up doing his story.Jack wanted me to write about him so I oblidged of course.The book will be coming out next month.It'll be in all the stores. I tell you what I'll get Jack to autograph one for you.He'd like that.By now Jimmy Policy and his boyfriend are coming around and a couple of waiters are summoned to show those guys the street. After it was over I told Jack that I'd have to include what just happened in the book and he shook his head and laughed about. I waited to see if Johnny Drags would show up but he didn't.So now I got to get going.I got to get back to my desk and fit what happened last night into a page or two and then send it to the publishers.Like I said the book will come out next month.It'll be in all the stores.They're already talking about it.I'll get Jack to sign one for you.He'd like that.Well, I got to get back to my desk and fit what happened into a few pages.Maybe I'll make it a chapter.I 'll figure it out. By the the way can I buy you another drink?You sure you want it with Ginger Ale this time?"
"Sit down and I'll buy you a drink.What are you havin'?You want some water in that?No. Ginger Ale"? That 'ill make you sick.But go ahead you name your poison. Say,did I ever tell you about Jack Dempsey and what happened last night?It might have gotten around by now. Well, me and Jack were sitting in his joint down on Broadway.We were at his table by the front just below that mural of him and Willard in Toledo. Boy,did he give it to 'ol Jess that 4th. Knocked him down 7 times,Broke his jaw.Fractured his eye.Knocked out some of his teeth .Cracked his ribs. No one had ever done that to 'ol Jess before.I was there at ringside and Jack wanted me to write about it and of course I oblidged.It was in all the big papers the next day.You probably read my stuff.It was in all the big papers.Well,me and Jack are sitting in his joint like I said and who do you think walks in?Jimmy Policy and that stooge of his Nuzio.Well,Jack don't want guys in his place like Jimmy Policy.You know him .He runs the numbers in Bed Sty and he comes in with his stooge this Nunzio saying to Jack that someone told him that Johnny Drags was going to show up in Jack's place soon and that Johnny Drags had welshed on him and that he would take care of it.You remember Johnny Drags.Yeah,his last name was Dragna. Everyone called him Johnny Drags.Well,Jack tells Jimmy Policy they called him Policy because he ran the numbers in Bed Sty .What was his last name?That's right Peroni.Jimmy Peroni but everyone called him Jimmy Policy.So Jack tells him he don't want no problems in his joint and he's going to have to leave with his boyfriend. Well,what do you think happens next?This stooge Nunzio sneaks behind Jack and is going to sucker punch him.Well I see it comin' and step in front of this big lug and lay him out.Jack turns around and puts two and two together and so he then flattens Jimmy Policy so that he and his boy friend are stretched out side by side on the floor. Well, I was in Dempsey's joint just finishing up doing his story.Jack wanted me to write about him so I oblidged of course.The book will be coming out next month.It'll be in all the stores. I tell you what I'll get Jack to autograph one for you.He'd like that.By now Jimmy Policy and his boyfriend are coming around and a couple of waiters are summoned to show those guys the street. After it was over I told Jack that I'd have to include what just happened in the book and he shook his head and laughed about. I waited to see if Johnny Drags would show up but he didn't.So now I got to get going.I got to get back to my desk and fit what happened last night into a page or two and then send it to the publishers.Like I said the book will come out next month.It'll be in all the stores.They're already talking about it.I'll get Jack to sign one for you.He'd like that.Well, I got to get back to my desk and fit what happened into a few pages.Maybe I'll make it a chapter.I 'll figure it out. By the the way can I buy you another drink?You sure you want it with Ginger Ale this time?"
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
If It Hadn't Been For fighting
In the late 60's to mid 70's there was what I think of as an"Old Guard" of Mexican national fighters who from time to time would venture to the Southland to fight,usually the up and coming prospect,or the elite guy who needs a tune up fight.When I think about those names they were fighters toiling in the lighter divisions. Octavio Gomez,Julio Guerrero,Raul Cruz,Rogelio Olguin,Arturo Lomeli,Tury Pineda,Al Urbina,Baby Vasquez,Benny Rodriguez for starters. There were some that got a shot at a title but came up short.And then there was a trio like Clemente Sanchez ,Chango Carmona,and Romeo Amaya that knew the experience to be the top guy in the division albeit for no longer than a cup of coffee.
I saw them all fight either up in LA at the Forum and The Olympic;in San Diego at The Coliseum;and in Tijuana at the Municipal Auditorium ,Jai Alai Palace,and the downtown bullring.It wasn't a good idea for any up and comer all full of himself to take any of these lightly if they had signed a contract.On any given day,when the mood struck them,they could be very tough and give the best a run for their money.
When Chango Carmona ,scheduled to fight Mando Ramos for the Mando's WBC title, he caught a break. The night before the fight Mando,for whatever reasons,stayed up all night high on booze and drugs and was sleeping it off in the LA County drunk tank. I think anyone walking the streets weighting a 135 pounds could have beaten Ramos that night.Any of those lunch pail club fighters I mentioned had a few things in common.They relied on the left hook.and they only knew one pace and that was full steam ahead throwing caution to the wind.They didn't know how to adapt during a fight.They threw what they had a hoped it would work.
I remember Julio Guerrero facing the great Thai, Venice Borkhorsor in the downtown bullring. Julio did his thing:throwing his left hook like it was going out of style.But having it had little effect. Borkhorsor, who was the flyweight king and was now testing the bantams,figured Guerrero was could give him an indicator.Borkhorsor was a southpaw and every time Guerrero wound up with the hook the Thai had his elbow protecting his side including his liver. Guerrero's hooks were bouncing off without causing a dent dent in Thai's armor.
But all these guys were fun to watch.They didn't try to peck way,clinch, and win a decision.It was either I'll take you out or you'll be standing over me with arms raised. Win or lose,the aficianados knew that the loser would die with his boots on.The only cutie pie was Baby Vasquez but he was kind of the Maromero of his day.The fans knew that he'd never walk alongside a Duran or a Sanchez,but if some guy coming with the good resume was going to think he'd brush Baby aside well it wasn't uncommon to see him thrown out with Baby's bathwater.Jose Napoles fought him twice and I saw those fights on the Mexican replay. It was two marks in the win column for Jose but Vasquez made him "look bad."There would be no third time.
It was good back then when those boys got to make some money and fight in the big venues in Mexico and the U.S. Today,a Mexican fighter with a similar rep is probably floundering around in Mexico fighting in the run down bars and against opponents that had never fought before.They'll never get the recognition. The big venues in Mexico have been relegated for the Lucha Libre ,and U.S. visas are as hard to get as The Hope Diamond.
Boxing is so different now. It was dying anyway and then Covid pulled the sheet over the eyes.When it gets back to "normal" it won't. All the sports will take a hit. Athletes are not held in such high esteem anymore.Just the price of a ticket throws cold water on that image.No one cares if they want to take a knee or if they think the white man wants to make them slaves.The talk isn't worth the time to listen to . Boxing is a little better.These poor guys still get jerked around by the promoters and managers.Now,only a handful can say "if it hadn't been for fighting..."
Chango Carmona
In the late 60's to mid 70's there was what I think of as an"Old Guard" of Mexican national fighters who from time to time would venture to the Southland to fight,usually the up and coming prospect,or the elite guy who needs a tune up fight.When I think about those names they were fighters toiling in the lighter divisions. Octavio Gomez,Julio Guerrero,Raul Cruz,Rogelio Olguin,Arturo Lomeli,Tury Pineda,Al Urbina,Baby Vasquez,Benny Rodriguez for starters. There were some that got a shot at a title but came up short.And then there was a trio like Clemente Sanchez ,Chango Carmona,and Romeo Amaya that knew the experience to be the top guy in the division albeit for no longer than a cup of coffee.
I saw them all fight either up in LA at the Forum and The Olympic;in San Diego at The Coliseum;and in Tijuana at the Municipal Auditorium ,Jai Alai Palace,and the downtown bullring.It wasn't a good idea for any up and comer all full of himself to take any of these lightly if they had signed a contract.On any given day,when the mood struck them,they could be very tough and give the best a run for their money.
When Chango Carmona ,scheduled to fight Mando Ramos for the Mando's WBC title, he caught a break. The night before the fight Mando,for whatever reasons,stayed up all night high on booze and drugs and was sleeping it off in the LA County drunk tank. I think anyone walking the streets weighting a 135 pounds could have beaten Ramos that night.Any of those lunch pail club fighters I mentioned had a few things in common.They relied on the left hook.and they only knew one pace and that was full steam ahead throwing caution to the wind.They didn't know how to adapt during a fight.They threw what they had a hoped it would work.
I remember Julio Guerrero facing the great Thai, Venice Borkhorsor in the downtown bullring. Julio did his thing:throwing his left hook like it was going out of style.But having it had little effect. Borkhorsor, who was the flyweight king and was now testing the bantams,figured Guerrero was could give him an indicator.Borkhorsor was a southpaw and every time Guerrero wound up with the hook the Thai had his elbow protecting his side including his liver. Guerrero's hooks were bouncing off without causing a dent dent in Thai's armor.
But all these guys were fun to watch.They didn't try to peck way,clinch, and win a decision.It was either I'll take you out or you'll be standing over me with arms raised. Win or lose,the aficianados knew that the loser would die with his boots on.The only cutie pie was Baby Vasquez but he was kind of the Maromero of his day.The fans knew that he'd never walk alongside a Duran or a Sanchez,but if some guy coming with the good resume was going to think he'd brush Baby aside well it wasn't uncommon to see him thrown out with Baby's bathwater.Jose Napoles fought him twice and I saw those fights on the Mexican replay. It was two marks in the win column for Jose but Vasquez made him "look bad."There would be no third time.
It was good back then when those boys got to make some money and fight in the big venues in Mexico and the U.S. Today,a Mexican fighter with a similar rep is probably floundering around in Mexico fighting in the run down bars and against opponents that had never fought before.They'll never get the recognition. The big venues in Mexico have been relegated for the Lucha Libre ,and U.S. visas are as hard to get as The Hope Diamond.
Boxing is so different now. It was dying anyway and then Covid pulled the sheet over the eyes.When it gets back to "normal" it won't. All the sports will take a hit. Athletes are not held in such high esteem anymore.Just the price of a ticket throws cold water on that image.No one cares if they want to take a knee or if they think the white man wants to make them slaves.The talk isn't worth the time to listen to . Boxing is a little better.These poor guys still get jerked around by the promoters and managers.Now,only a handful can say "if it hadn't been for fighting..."
Chango Carmona
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
The Apple From The Tree
One thing that stuck in my mind after reading Chris James' biography of Eder Jofre was the relationship he had with his father, Aristides.Again, when all these lists are compiled with all the "experts" pushing each other out of the way because they can't wait to enlighten the world with their 2 cents worth,I've never heard Aristides Jofre's name as a candidate worth considering as one of the standout trainers of any era.It's easy to say Futch and Dundee.Ray Arcel and Manny Seamon. Charley Goldman and Jack Kearns. And they merit mentioning,but I've never seen Aristides Jofre's name appear on any list of the reputable rags or any pissing contest forums. So hears my candidate for one of the best trainers,Aristides Jofre,or as they called him when he was fighting KId Jofre.
They say it's unwise for a father to train his son in any sport,especially boxing. The relationship is close to the point that it blurs the vision.The father is either seeing something in his son that's not there or he nurses him along protecting him from leaving the boxing nest. In the end it's usually an ugly separation.
What I saw from Julio Cesar Chavez the father towards his son, the dad thought his son had his passion and discipline,something inherited. The son may have physically been bigger than his dad, except in the very important heart category.Dad kept believing something would wake his son up to the fact that it takes hard work to become a champion.All the kid did was sadly use his father as a scapegoat. He said he grew up in a house where his father was an addict.Yeah,I get your point.Now move on.
In Aristides Jofre's case his son understood what his father was trying to get across. For one thing Aristides had no demons that would sabotage his efforts of trying to instill in his boy what it takes to become a champion.Without any hypocrisy and double standards in Arisides ,Eder Jofre was in awe of his father. Julio Jr. saw his father become addicted to drugs and alcohol and a failed marriage.These upheavals aren't a positive factor when someone is trying to be a teacher.The old man should have let the chips fall where they may. They did anyway.
Granted, Jack Blackburn battled alcohol all his life but he was like a tyrant when it came to keeping Joe Louis walking the straight and narrow. Joe looked at Blackburn as a father figure but also a father who would use a verbal cane with a lashing.
The harmony within the boxing Jofre circle couldn't have more applicable for turning out a success story. Love and loyalty were the keys that didn't lead to any rivalries not to speak of jealousies.When Aristides died near the end of Eder's career his two brothers stepped in to replace the dad.It was the modeling of Aristides that guided them and kept things in order.
I hope that people that read Chris' book will come away with more than thinking it's a work of cigar smoke arenas and the fights themselves.It's the story of a family. A family whose core was the love they had for each other.In time of need their bond became even stronger.Without Eder Jofre having that with him things would have turned out a lot different.
Charley Goldman
One thing that stuck in my mind after reading Chris James' biography of Eder Jofre was the relationship he had with his father, Aristides.Again, when all these lists are compiled with all the "experts" pushing each other out of the way because they can't wait to enlighten the world with their 2 cents worth,I've never heard Aristides Jofre's name as a candidate worth considering as one of the standout trainers of any era.It's easy to say Futch and Dundee.Ray Arcel and Manny Seamon. Charley Goldman and Jack Kearns. And they merit mentioning,but I've never seen Aristides Jofre's name appear on any list of the reputable rags or any pissing contest forums. So hears my candidate for one of the best trainers,Aristides Jofre,or as they called him when he was fighting KId Jofre.
They say it's unwise for a father to train his son in any sport,especially boxing. The relationship is close to the point that it blurs the vision.The father is either seeing something in his son that's not there or he nurses him along protecting him from leaving the boxing nest. In the end it's usually an ugly separation.
What I saw from Julio Cesar Chavez the father towards his son, the dad thought his son had his passion and discipline,something inherited. The son may have physically been bigger than his dad, except in the very important heart category.Dad kept believing something would wake his son up to the fact that it takes hard work to become a champion.All the kid did was sadly use his father as a scapegoat. He said he grew up in a house where his father was an addict.Yeah,I get your point.Now move on.
In Aristides Jofre's case his son understood what his father was trying to get across. For one thing Aristides had no demons that would sabotage his efforts of trying to instill in his boy what it takes to become a champion.Without any hypocrisy and double standards in Arisides ,Eder Jofre was in awe of his father. Julio Jr. saw his father become addicted to drugs and alcohol and a failed marriage.These upheavals aren't a positive factor when someone is trying to be a teacher.The old man should have let the chips fall where they may. They did anyway.
Granted, Jack Blackburn battled alcohol all his life but he was like a tyrant when it came to keeping Joe Louis walking the straight and narrow. Joe looked at Blackburn as a father figure but also a father who would use a verbal cane with a lashing.
The harmony within the boxing Jofre circle couldn't have more applicable for turning out a success story. Love and loyalty were the keys that didn't lead to any rivalries not to speak of jealousies.When Aristides died near the end of Eder's career his two brothers stepped in to replace the dad.It was the modeling of Aristides that guided them and kept things in order.
I hope that people that read Chris' book will come away with more than thinking it's a work of cigar smoke arenas and the fights themselves.It's the story of a family. A family whose core was the love they had for each other.In time of need their bond became even stronger.Without Eder Jofre having that with him things would have turned out a lot different.
Charley Goldman
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Aristides Jofre and his son,Eder.
Though I respected what Eder Jofre accomplished in the ring I never was in his corner when the bell rang. When he fought Joe Medel,I thought ,and so did the aficianados,that Jofre would meet his match with the Mexican slugger. They traded blows but it was Jofre who wore down Medel to the point that he couldn't continue.There was a rematch later and I thought ,along with aficianados,that Medel would be ready this time, but he was on the TKO end of the loss in shorter time than the first fight.
With Jofre it was his strength that amazed me. He never looked like he was going to fold,run out of gas.Much later when he fought Vicente Saldivar ,when both he and the Mexican were trying to come back after a layoff,I wanted Saldivar to win ,but after seeing him lose to Shibata In Tijuana I had my doubts that he would ever be his old self ; as the fight went along he could draw on his reserves and pull it out in the end. Jofre destroyed him in 4 rounds.
But though I was always rooting for the other guy it wasn't an obsession. When Jofre finally retired I didn't give it any thought.But after reading Chris' book I got a whole new slant on Eder Jofre.The relationship between him and his dad,Aristides,who was his trainer, for me was the perfect combination towards reaching success.They were both so thoroughly prepared. It was like they always had the edge on the opponent because they were better more ready.Eder was always in top shape. His focus was on listening to his father's instructions. There were no arguments.If there was ever a better relationship between trainer and fighter I'd like to know about it.Because the family was the bedrock of their lives,strangers never had a chance of upheaving this harmony. Outsiders tried to enter that circle,but they were brushed off.Aristides and Eder couldn't imagine letting in something as toxic as some Johnny Come Lately.
Too bad I didn't know the back round earlier. I don't think much of the world was aware either.For me that's the strength of Chris' book-the story of the Jofres.I've never read a boxing biography that delves in to the fabric of such a tightknit family.It almost doesn't make sense. It's an anachronism.Fighters are supposed to have these horrific childhoods and take their demons with them into the ring.And eventually it's the fighter himself who pushes the self destruct button. He becames the anti hero like a LaMotta or a Tyson. With the world flummoxing around the universe today,I call "bull s--t" on all these malcontents.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
The Infallible Way
Tijuana is like Las Vegas in the respect that if you're waiting in line or want a good seat,you don't want to leave it to fate to grant your wish. Many years ago I posted something about the daily struggles the average Mexican endures to make it through the day.I wouldn't call it quiet desperation.Maybe I'd throw out the word "quiet" and find another adjective,but "desperation" stays. After I posted my story I got a reply that said,"Mexico just needs to catch a lucky break." Well, what are you going to do?Explain to the guy that when it comes to democracy,Mexico's example is rotten down to the core.It will always be that way. It's the nature of the beast. They know it and that's why the influx of migrants at the border is a reflection of what's going on where these people came from.I almost wanted to call him a name,but that would have worked against me. At the time the poster said that he'd been to Mexico(Tijuana) one time to take in a boxing match.
Many years ago I attended a class at the university in my wife's hometown in Jiquilpan,Michoacan.The subject was the something like the culture of Mexico and how it undermines democracy.Now I figured one of their own historical pedagogues would validate my thinking.And did this guy deliver. I was the only gringo in the class of around twenty or thirty.I'd say most of the others were these erudite old biddies showing off their furs, and the tutorial stuffed shirts with the manicures and thick cologne.
Most of the class knew who I was and the lecturers were glad to see an American sitting at a desk.I could tell they wanted to impress me.They wanted to show how smart they were,and they were.The crux of the professor's lesson was that when the Iberian peninsula came over to the New World and started breeding with Indians there would never be similarities of a functioning democracy ,only the words in the constitutions shared a famliarity.He went on to say that there's been terrible feelings between the native Indians and the Spaniards but that the Mestizo is the predominant breed,and that's the mix. But it's always better to not look too Indian:high cheekbones,the bump of the nose,the copper skin,the jet black hair.That's too much of a giveaway. Fair skin,blondish hair,a white face,and if your lucky you have an Anglo last name;then you're probably a member of the aristocracy.
It's ridiculous to sit back and watch how these social stratus shift, snub,and slither along like snakes through society because the bottom line is that the country never gets its act together and it's these people born with the silver spoons in their mouths who are calling the shots ,and pulling the triggers.And that's goes for all of Latin America. At first Che Guevara wasn't liked in Cuba because he was from Argentina and they looked down on the colored Communist island as being too savage,and dark.
The professor went on (I'm sure his focus was on me because after he'd finish a thought he look out at me for some sort of approval-a nod or maybe a thumbs up).He said that inherently Mexicans had more of the Indian traits. They are very close to family,protect their "patria chicas"(what part of the country they are from),don't trust outsiders,and have little regard for people in uniform. To live on a ranch and ride a horse is more macho than putting on a tie and going to the office. Teachers are effeminate,yet to wear Levis and take a s--t behind the barn is for barbarians.
But things have morphed into something quite different in the last 30 years,The guys running the show now are not the silver spoon mouthed.They were dumped onto the bottom rung of the ladder and grew up way too fast.It turned them into animals,or they would have been ground like flour in the grist mill.They figured they had nothing go lose so they took risks by killing anyone who was in their way,And that meant the silver spooners included.
The lecture ended to slight applause. The old biddies got up and put on their stoles. The gentlemen with the vests and ties gloated and sought praise.I went back to the house thinking some things never change and there's no use worrying about it.If you can get to the United States more power to ya'.
Part of my wife's family(a very small part)The Salt Of The Earth
Tijuana is like Las Vegas in the respect that if you're waiting in line or want a good seat,you don't want to leave it to fate to grant your wish. Many years ago I posted something about the daily struggles the average Mexican endures to make it through the day.I wouldn't call it quiet desperation.Maybe I'd throw out the word "quiet" and find another adjective,but "desperation" stays. After I posted my story I got a reply that said,"Mexico just needs to catch a lucky break." Well, what are you going to do?Explain to the guy that when it comes to democracy,Mexico's example is rotten down to the core.It will always be that way. It's the nature of the beast. They know it and that's why the influx of migrants at the border is a reflection of what's going on where these people came from.I almost wanted to call him a name,but that would have worked against me. At the time the poster said that he'd been to Mexico(Tijuana) one time to take in a boxing match.
Many years ago I attended a class at the university in my wife's hometown in Jiquilpan,Michoacan.The subject was the something like the culture of Mexico and how it undermines democracy.Now I figured one of their own historical pedagogues would validate my thinking.And did this guy deliver. I was the only gringo in the class of around twenty or thirty.I'd say most of the others were these erudite old biddies showing off their furs, and the tutorial stuffed shirts with the manicures and thick cologne.
Most of the class knew who I was and the lecturers were glad to see an American sitting at a desk.I could tell they wanted to impress me.They wanted to show how smart they were,and they were.The crux of the professor's lesson was that when the Iberian peninsula came over to the New World and started breeding with Indians there would never be similarities of a functioning democracy ,only the words in the constitutions shared a famliarity.He went on to say that there's been terrible feelings between the native Indians and the Spaniards but that the Mestizo is the predominant breed,and that's the mix. But it's always better to not look too Indian:high cheekbones,the bump of the nose,the copper skin,the jet black hair.That's too much of a giveaway. Fair skin,blondish hair,a white face,and if your lucky you have an Anglo last name;then you're probably a member of the aristocracy.
It's ridiculous to sit back and watch how these social stratus shift, snub,and slither along like snakes through society because the bottom line is that the country never gets its act together and it's these people born with the silver spoons in their mouths who are calling the shots ,and pulling the triggers.And that's goes for all of Latin America. At first Che Guevara wasn't liked in Cuba because he was from Argentina and they looked down on the colored Communist island as being too savage,and dark.
The professor went on (I'm sure his focus was on me because after he'd finish a thought he look out at me for some sort of approval-a nod or maybe a thumbs up).He said that inherently Mexicans had more of the Indian traits. They are very close to family,protect their "patria chicas"(what part of the country they are from),don't trust outsiders,and have little regard for people in uniform. To live on a ranch and ride a horse is more macho than putting on a tie and going to the office. Teachers are effeminate,yet to wear Levis and take a s--t behind the barn is for barbarians.
But things have morphed into something quite different in the last 30 years,The guys running the show now are not the silver spoon mouthed.They were dumped onto the bottom rung of the ladder and grew up way too fast.It turned them into animals,or they would have been ground like flour in the grist mill.They figured they had nothing go lose so they took risks by killing anyone who was in their way,And that meant the silver spooners included.
The lecture ended to slight applause. The old biddies got up and put on their stoles. The gentlemen with the vests and ties gloated and sought praise.I went back to the house thinking some things never change and there's no use worrying about it.If you can get to the United States more power to ya'.
Part of my wife's family(a very small part)The Salt Of The Earth
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
I Left My Heart In Los Angeles
San Diego has always played second fiddle to Los Angeles when in comes to the sports fans in Tijuana showing any American affinity towards a team.The San Diego Padres baseball club will never surpass the LA Dodgers when it comes to the South Of The Border crowd showing their appreciation.When The Dodgers come to play the Padres in PetCo Park the caravans from Tijuana the fans that drive into the parking lot are wearing Dodger Blue.Just the San Diego's team name"Padres"is kind of passive and non threatening. They named the team after a bunch of priests.I'm shaking in my boots.
As far as pro football is concerned The Raiders have always been numero uno on the Tijuana Hit Parade.The Raiders,whether they were in Oakland,then LA,then back to Oakland,and now in Las Vegas have always had a big following in Tijuana. The San Diego Chargers ,who moved up to LA to share the new stadium with the Rams, will always have more fans at their home games wearing the other team's jersey.
But that was team sports.When it came to the individual sport like boxing,the sport it has always been a curiosity piece. The Mexican/American fighter whether he's fighting in LA or San Diego or just a stone's throw across the border will never earn the Mexican national's respect. When talking to the great Chicano fighters from the Southland like Alberto Davilla and Albert Sandoval there was nothing they could produce in the ring to win the favor of the crowds at The Olympic Auditorium. They had a fan base in LA but it was always outnumbered at the gate by the aficianados regardless of their nationality.
Oscar De La Hoya may have been a treat in LA but in Mexico he was considered an infidel. He never fought in Mexico,married a Puerto Rican gal,and to add insult to injury never lost a fight to a Mexican national punctuating his efforts with two stoppages of the immortal Julio Cesar Chavez.When Oscar signed to fight Mayweather ,who was the antithesis of lunch pail Mexican fighter,the country was set to give Oscar a pass.But Oscar blew it like he did in all his big fights after he blew the first big one against Trinidad.Then there were those sub rosa photos of him in that fishnet tutu that came out on the internet. Couldn't fathom Julio Cesar Chavez posing in that outfit.
Andy Ruiz was born about 5 miles north of the border in Imperial,California. If Mrs. Ruiz had decided to have her baby in Mexicali while visiting relatives Mexico would have enshrined her son in the Rotunda Of Heroes in Mexico City besides Zapata,Juarez,and Madero.Of course his qualification would have been the heavyweight championship belt strapped around his girth.The president of Mexico invited him to the Mexican "Whitehouse" but the thrill soon evaporated when he lost the title back to Joshua in a terribly boring fight.Now there's talk of him fighting Chris Arreola.I don't foresee a rush at the border of Mexicans breaking their butts to get up to Carson to watch that one.
Chris Arreola
San Diego has always played second fiddle to Los Angeles when in comes to the sports fans in Tijuana showing any American affinity towards a team.The San Diego Padres baseball club will never surpass the LA Dodgers when it comes to the South Of The Border crowd showing their appreciation.When The Dodgers come to play the Padres in PetCo Park the caravans from Tijuana the fans that drive into the parking lot are wearing Dodger Blue.Just the San Diego's team name"Padres"is kind of passive and non threatening. They named the team after a bunch of priests.I'm shaking in my boots.
As far as pro football is concerned The Raiders have always been numero uno on the Tijuana Hit Parade.The Raiders,whether they were in Oakland,then LA,then back to Oakland,and now in Las Vegas have always had a big following in Tijuana. The San Diego Chargers ,who moved up to LA to share the new stadium with the Rams, will always have more fans at their home games wearing the other team's jersey.
But that was team sports.When it came to the individual sport like boxing,the sport it has always been a curiosity piece. The Mexican/American fighter whether he's fighting in LA or San Diego or just a stone's throw across the border will never earn the Mexican national's respect. When talking to the great Chicano fighters from the Southland like Alberto Davilla and Albert Sandoval there was nothing they could produce in the ring to win the favor of the crowds at The Olympic Auditorium. They had a fan base in LA but it was always outnumbered at the gate by the aficianados regardless of their nationality.
Oscar De La Hoya may have been a treat in LA but in Mexico he was considered an infidel. He never fought in Mexico,married a Puerto Rican gal,and to add insult to injury never lost a fight to a Mexican national punctuating his efforts with two stoppages of the immortal Julio Cesar Chavez.When Oscar signed to fight Mayweather ,who was the antithesis of lunch pail Mexican fighter,the country was set to give Oscar a pass.But Oscar blew it like he did in all his big fights after he blew the first big one against Trinidad.Then there were those sub rosa photos of him in that fishnet tutu that came out on the internet. Couldn't fathom Julio Cesar Chavez posing in that outfit.
Andy Ruiz was born about 5 miles north of the border in Imperial,California. If Mrs. Ruiz had decided to have her baby in Mexicali while visiting relatives Mexico would have enshrined her son in the Rotunda Of Heroes in Mexico City besides Zapata,Juarez,and Madero.Of course his qualification would have been the heavyweight championship belt strapped around his girth.The president of Mexico invited him to the Mexican "Whitehouse" but the thrill soon evaporated when he lost the title back to Joshua in a terribly boring fight.Now there's talk of him fighting Chris Arreola.I don't foresee a rush at the border of Mexicans breaking their butts to get up to Carson to watch that one.
Chris Arreola
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chrisjs1985
- Lightweight
- Posts: 783
- Joined: 11 Jan 2018, 12:45
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Roger, indeed Kid Jofre and Eder Jofre was the finest father-son team in boxing. The Calzaghes, the Trinidads, and more recently the Lomachenkos have great stories too. Maybe in a different era, he would have spent more time abroad and coaching others? He had a lot of good pupils, but conditions for Brazilian boxers were more challenging, that's for sure. The relationship between them is so strong. Even today in his old age, Eder will cry when talking about or seeing his father such was that bond.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
I think you hit in on the head.Aristides was happy being with his son and his son would have it no other way. The father stayed in Brazil to train some fighters,but to spread himself around the globe would not only have taken away some of the crucial time he had to spend with his son,but time away from his wife, children, inlaws,and friends.You really captured the closeness within that family.I hope the readers get more out of your book than a good boxing story. I also hope the pundits read the book and elevate it to a work of art where it belongs.You're on your way.chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑12 Apr 2021, 13:30 Roger, indeed Kid Jofre and Eder Jofre was the finest father-son team in boxing. The Calzaghes, the Trinidads, and more recently the Lomachenkos have great stories too. Maybe in a different era, he would have spent more time abroad and coaching others? He had a lot of good pupils, but conditions for Brazilian boxers were more challenging, that's for sure. The relationship between them is so strong. Even today in his old age, Eder will cry when talking about or seeing his father such was that bond.
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chrisjs1985
- Lightweight
- Posts: 783
- Joined: 11 Jan 2018, 12:45
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Thanks Roger! Really appreciate all the positive feedback. I've got some good reviews coming up around the world, so hopefully that gives the story a big push.dagosd2000 wrote: ↑12 Apr 2021, 13:56I think you hit in on the head.Aristides was happy being with his son and his son would have it no other way. The father stayed in Brazil to train some fighters,but to spread himself around the globe would not only have taken away some of the crucial time he had to spend with his son,but time away from his wife, children, inlaws,and friends.You really captured the closeness within that family.I hope the readers get more out of your book than a good boxing story. I also hope the pundits read the book and elevate it to a work of art where it belongs.You're on your way.chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑12 Apr 2021, 13:30 Roger, indeed Kid Jofre and Eder Jofre was the finest father-son team in boxing. The Calzaghes, the Trinidads, and more recently the Lomachenkos have great stories too. Maybe in a different era, he would have spent more time abroad and coaching others? He had a lot of good pupils, but conditions for Brazilian boxers were more challenging, that's for sure. The relationship between them is so strong. Even today in his old age, Eder will cry when talking about or seeing his father such was that bond.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑12 Apr 2021, 14:16Thanks Roger! Really appreciate all the positive feedback. I've got some good reviews coming up around the world, so hopefully that gives the story a big push.dagosd2000 wrote: ↑12 Apr 2021, 13:56I think you hit in on the head.Aristides was happy being with his son and his son would have it no other way. The father stayed in Brazil to train some fighters,but to spread himself around the globe would not only have taken away some of the crucial time he had to spend with his son,but time away from his wife, children, inlaws,and friends.You really captured the closeness within that family.I hope the readers get more out of your book than a good boxing story. I also hope the pundits read the book and elevate it to a work of art where it belongs.You're on your way.chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑12 Apr 2021, 13:30 Roger, indeed Kid Jofre and Eder Jofre was the finest father-son team in boxing. The Calzaghes, the Trinidads, and more recently the Lomachenkos have great stories too. Maybe in a different era, he would have spent more time abroad and coaching others? He had a lot of good pupils, but conditions for Brazilian boxers were more challenging, that's for sure. The relationship between them is so strong. Even today in his old age, Eder will cry when talking about or seeing his father such was that bond.
Is there any way someone like a Teddy Atlas, a Al Bernstein ,a Max Kellerman,a Brian Kenny,or a Joe Tessatore could interview you on TV re:your book? And then to have a fighter of that era like a Sugar Ray Leonard or even a promoter like a Bob Arum talk it up? Maybe Rick knows someone.He's got a lot of connections.
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chrisjs1985
- Lightweight
- Posts: 783
- Joined: 11 Jan 2018, 12:45
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
I've got Don Stradley reviewing for The Ring, also fighters like Zarate, Fenech will record videos/post photos with it. Probably Famechon, Buchanan too and in the future Freitas, Olivares when I see him and more. I am working on Leonard, and Tyson later in the year posing with it since I have a friend who's close with Leonard and said he wants Leonard to read it. Rick is trying to arrange a meet with Tyson when Eder is here. Tom Gerbasi said he wants to interview me and do a feature on it. Japan's Boxing Magazine are doing a review on it. So, little by little I am getting some folks to talk about it.dagosd2000 wrote: ↑12 Apr 2021, 14:30chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑12 Apr 2021, 14:16Thanks Roger! Really appreciate all the positive feedback. I've got some good reviews coming up around the world, so hopefully that gives the story a big push.dagosd2000 wrote: ↑12 Apr 2021, 13:56
I think you hit in on the head.Aristides was happy being with his son and his son would have it no other way. The father stayed in Brazil to train some fighters,but to spread himself around the globe would not only have taken away some of the crucial time he had to spend with his son,but time away from his wife, children, inlaws,and friends.You really captured the closeness within that family.I hope the readers get more out of your book than a good boxing story. I also hope the pundits read the book and elevate it to a work of art where it belongs.You're on your way.
Is there any way someone like a Teddy Atlas, a Al Bernstein ,a Max Kellerman,a Brian Kenny,or a Joe Tessatore could interview you on TV re:your book? And then to have a fighter of that era like a Sugar Ray Leonard or even a promoter like a Bob Arum talk it up? Maybe Rick knows someone.He's got a lot of connections.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
I've got Don Stradley reviewing for The Ring, also fighters like Zarate, Fenech will record videos/post photos with it. Probably Famechon, Buchanan too and in the future Freitas, Olivares when I see him and more. I am working on Leonard, and Tyson later in the year posing with it since I have a friend who's close with Leonard and said he wants Leonard to read it. Rick is trying to arrange a meet with Tyson when Eder is here. Tom Gerbasi said he wants to interview me and do a feature on it. Japan's Boxing Magazine are doing a review on it. So, little by little I am getting some folks to talk about it.
[/quote]
You'll never know unless you try.Something will break.
[/quote]
You'll never know unless you try.Something will break.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
It's All In The Marketing
I see the baseball card companies are back at it.When I was a kid,kids collected baseball cards.Mostly it was baseball. Football was a distant second.Then by the 1990's kids got into other fads like PokeMan and X Box games and trading cards drifted away from the mainstream. Another reason was that where were too many companies making cards wanting to get their thick slab of the pie.Then the grading publications like Beckett were being bought off by the manufacturers to get their cards into the hands of the public.With the kids playing their video games the trading card business was aimed at adults. Adults who were still living their dreams of their childhoods when Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays were the heroes.
But back in the 50's there were only two companies that made cards-Topps and Bowman. Bowman made both baseball and football,but stopped printing after 1955 after Topps bought them out for 200 grand.. Topps then had the corner on the market. But it was a day when price tags weren't associated with sports memorabilia. No one would think of charging someone for an autograph. But then the nostalgia kick began brewing and by the 1990's the multitude of card companies along with the shady grading publication,Beckett,laid out their game plan,but not at little Johnny,but Johnny's old man. And he began believing all the hype and instead of investing in a 401 K was buying baseball cards. The value of these cards were reaching the levels of a Rembrandt. Then two things happened that killed off the interest and burst the bubble.
One:the counterfeit cards and forged autographs were being uncovered by the FBI.San Diego was a Mecca for this illegal activity.
Two;The housing crash of 2008 liquidated the collector's "Mad Money."Some guy who had a legit Mark McGwire rookie card valued ,if graded by Beckett as a 10, was sitting on a cool grand.Today you couldn't give them away. Oh,all these record setters who were on the PEDs helped sabotage what was left.
But now I see that the companies have come up with new hook-digital cards and cards that are packed varying in value. A standard 6 card pack can be bought for a fiver. A pack of 45 for a C note. I guess little Johnny ain't in the hunt. It's the adults that have become obsessed looking for that one and only Mike Trout autograph card with all the holograms that they say is worth more than the down payment on a mortgage.
So how about boxing cards? They were never a big mover even when little Johnny was getting cavities by chewing so much gum wanting to find a Hank Aaron that of course smelled like bubblegum.Most of the boxing cards were printed years ago(like the baseball cards) in pouches of tobacco or in vending machines at the local boardwalk.But I don't recall when I was a kid any of my pals looking for a Jack Dempsey card.
I had some. Again it was Bob Johnston who gave my father that Police Gazette signed off by Jack Johnson.Over time he gave my father a Jack Britton and a Johnny Dundee card.They looked like something out of a vending machine at Coney Island. I gave away the one I had of Sugar Ray Robinson.I also had one of Jack Johnson that my dog ate(honest)They weren't worth much then and even less now. Baseball still holds what little ground is left for sports cards.
But to think that a guy like Mike Trout who's still playing and now they're now going to equate his baseball card with the Holy Grail is ridiculous. But if you market it right you can sell just about sell anyone anything.That's what's scary.
Here's a good one.A postcard promoting the second Jack Johnson /Fireman Jim Flynn fight. Don't know how I got this. Maybe I have the Holy Grail and just haven't looked hard enough
I see the baseball card companies are back at it.When I was a kid,kids collected baseball cards.Mostly it was baseball. Football was a distant second.Then by the 1990's kids got into other fads like PokeMan and X Box games and trading cards drifted away from the mainstream. Another reason was that where were too many companies making cards wanting to get their thick slab of the pie.Then the grading publications like Beckett were being bought off by the manufacturers to get their cards into the hands of the public.With the kids playing their video games the trading card business was aimed at adults. Adults who were still living their dreams of their childhoods when Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays were the heroes.
But back in the 50's there were only two companies that made cards-Topps and Bowman. Bowman made both baseball and football,but stopped printing after 1955 after Topps bought them out for 200 grand.. Topps then had the corner on the market. But it was a day when price tags weren't associated with sports memorabilia. No one would think of charging someone for an autograph. But then the nostalgia kick began brewing and by the 1990's the multitude of card companies along with the shady grading publication,Beckett,laid out their game plan,but not at little Johnny,but Johnny's old man. And he began believing all the hype and instead of investing in a 401 K was buying baseball cards. The value of these cards were reaching the levels of a Rembrandt. Then two things happened that killed off the interest and burst the bubble.
One:the counterfeit cards and forged autographs were being uncovered by the FBI.San Diego was a Mecca for this illegal activity.
Two;The housing crash of 2008 liquidated the collector's "Mad Money."Some guy who had a legit Mark McGwire rookie card valued ,if graded by Beckett as a 10, was sitting on a cool grand.Today you couldn't give them away. Oh,all these record setters who were on the PEDs helped sabotage what was left.
But now I see that the companies have come up with new hook-digital cards and cards that are packed varying in value. A standard 6 card pack can be bought for a fiver. A pack of 45 for a C note. I guess little Johnny ain't in the hunt. It's the adults that have become obsessed looking for that one and only Mike Trout autograph card with all the holograms that they say is worth more than the down payment on a mortgage.
So how about boxing cards? They were never a big mover even when little Johnny was getting cavities by chewing so much gum wanting to find a Hank Aaron that of course smelled like bubblegum.Most of the boxing cards were printed years ago(like the baseball cards) in pouches of tobacco or in vending machines at the local boardwalk.But I don't recall when I was a kid any of my pals looking for a Jack Dempsey card.
I had some. Again it was Bob Johnston who gave my father that Police Gazette signed off by Jack Johnson.Over time he gave my father a Jack Britton and a Johnny Dundee card.They looked like something out of a vending machine at Coney Island. I gave away the one I had of Sugar Ray Robinson.I also had one of Jack Johnson that my dog ate(honest)They weren't worth much then and even less now. Baseball still holds what little ground is left for sports cards.
But to think that a guy like Mike Trout who's still playing and now they're now going to equate his baseball card with the Holy Grail is ridiculous. But if you market it right you can sell just about sell anyone anything.That's what's scary.
Here's a good one.A postcard promoting the second Jack Johnson /Fireman Jim Flynn fight. Don't know how I got this. Maybe I have the Holy Grail and just haven't looked hard enough
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
You Never Know
I've said it before and I'll say it again:When two Mexican fighters get into the ring you can throw out the odds.Mexicans know that when they fight each other(now I'm talking about boxing matches)it's a lot more than just a fight. It's laying their manhood out there so you better give it everything you've got. If you lose you had better have proved to the aficianados that if you had strained anymore you would have died of a heart attack.
One of the prime examples of the favorite coming up a cropper was when Eloy Sanchez put away the great Joe Becerra.Though it was a non title fight Becerra was so demoralized that he retired after the bout.
When Ruben Olivares went to the well and decided to put his title on the line against Chucho Castillo,a fighter who would qualify as a "trial horse" and had previously etched a notch in El Puas' gun,no one was expecting Chucho to leave the ring victorious,unless you were one of those aficianados who knew that there was more up for grabs than a championship.
My favorite series between two Mexican rivals were the fights connecting Israel Vasquez and Rafael Marquez,(go ahead throw out the last fight.Vasquez was blind in one eye by that time)Because those fights weren't telecast nationally in the U.S. they didn't draw much attention from the gringo scribes.What's the deal with Americans? If you weight under 125 pounds they think you should be a jockey.
Talk about great non champions and Mexico could fill book.Toluco Lopez,Joe Medel,Kid Anahuac,the three babies; Arizmendi,Vasquez,and Casanova;Mexican fighters that were weaned on a Reyes glove and fought in every other guy's hometown and came in to pick a pocket and then get out of Dodge as fast as possible.
Yeah,it's more than a fight.It's a rite of passage. If a Mexican fighter comes into a Mexican arena and stinks up the place they're gonna' let him know about it.
The ballsiest Mexican fighter I ever saw was Salvador Sanchez.He reminded me a little Carlos Monzon in physical stature,but his main asset (like Monzon's,)was that he never gave in. He'd maybe start slow or give the other guy the momentum,but in the end ,just as you were going to give up on him, he'd bull his neck and get his hand raised.It's hard to say if he could have kept that up.He self destructed in a car.I think in time he would have stepped into the ring against another Mexican fighter ,perhaps of journeyman ilk,and then you might have seen that there was nothing Sal could muster to win the fight.It was almost like fate took over.
I think this factor of disregarding the odds before two Mexicans face off against each other keeps the pulse pumping below the border.The interest is always high especially when it's two Mexican boys.It's a cultural thing in a way. Now matter how high you reach the pinnacle in Mexico one of these days you're gonna' fall.And I've seen plenty of tumbles inside Mexican arenas.
Joe Medel.
Always liked the haircut.:crew on top fenders on the side.Gaspar Ortega's look too.
I've said it before and I'll say it again:When two Mexican fighters get into the ring you can throw out the odds.Mexicans know that when they fight each other(now I'm talking about boxing matches)it's a lot more than just a fight. It's laying their manhood out there so you better give it everything you've got. If you lose you had better have proved to the aficianados that if you had strained anymore you would have died of a heart attack.
One of the prime examples of the favorite coming up a cropper was when Eloy Sanchez put away the great Joe Becerra.Though it was a non title fight Becerra was so demoralized that he retired after the bout.
When Ruben Olivares went to the well and decided to put his title on the line against Chucho Castillo,a fighter who would qualify as a "trial horse" and had previously etched a notch in El Puas' gun,no one was expecting Chucho to leave the ring victorious,unless you were one of those aficianados who knew that there was more up for grabs than a championship.
My favorite series between two Mexican rivals were the fights connecting Israel Vasquez and Rafael Marquez,(go ahead throw out the last fight.Vasquez was blind in one eye by that time)Because those fights weren't telecast nationally in the U.S. they didn't draw much attention from the gringo scribes.What's the deal with Americans? If you weight under 125 pounds they think you should be a jockey.
Talk about great non champions and Mexico could fill book.Toluco Lopez,Joe Medel,Kid Anahuac,the three babies; Arizmendi,Vasquez,and Casanova;Mexican fighters that were weaned on a Reyes glove and fought in every other guy's hometown and came in to pick a pocket and then get out of Dodge as fast as possible.
Yeah,it's more than a fight.It's a rite of passage. If a Mexican fighter comes into a Mexican arena and stinks up the place they're gonna' let him know about it.
The ballsiest Mexican fighter I ever saw was Salvador Sanchez.He reminded me a little Carlos Monzon in physical stature,but his main asset (like Monzon's,)was that he never gave in. He'd maybe start slow or give the other guy the momentum,but in the end ,just as you were going to give up on him, he'd bull his neck and get his hand raised.It's hard to say if he could have kept that up.He self destructed in a car.I think in time he would have stepped into the ring against another Mexican fighter ,perhaps of journeyman ilk,and then you might have seen that there was nothing Sal could muster to win the fight.It was almost like fate took over.
I think this factor of disregarding the odds before two Mexicans face off against each other keeps the pulse pumping below the border.The interest is always high especially when it's two Mexican boys.It's a cultural thing in a way. Now matter how high you reach the pinnacle in Mexico one of these days you're gonna' fall.And I've seen plenty of tumbles inside Mexican arenas.
Joe Medel.
Always liked the haircut.:crew on top fenders on the side.Gaspar Ortega's look too.
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chrisjs1985
- Lightweight
- Posts: 783
- Joined: 11 Jan 2018, 12:45
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
That Marquez-Vazquez series was such a classic. One of the finest series in boxing history I believe. From the first fight to the third the fights just got better. That fight had it all. Knockdowns, changes in momentum, skills, power etc; just an incredible fight and the finest I have ever attended (you can see my a few rows back clapping at the start of every round next to my buddy in the bright green Mexico jersey).
Medel was a fine fighter. It's hard to explain it to modern fans who don't understand context or era's but I say with Medel's who's who of victims (I posted it earlier in the thread on great non-champs), that would be enough to be considered a two or three-weight, multiple time champion and bona-fide hall of famer in today's game of extra divisions, and so many extra trinkets. The film of Medel is good enough to show he was a great fighter at his peak. It's a shame that even when Harada and Jofre told The Ring this fairly recently in the "Best I faced" series, it's mainly the boxing nuts like us that really understand this.
Medel was a fine fighter. It's hard to explain it to modern fans who don't understand context or era's but I say with Medel's who's who of victims (I posted it earlier in the thread on great non-champs), that would be enough to be considered a two or three-weight, multiple time champion and bona-fide hall of famer in today's game of extra divisions, and so many extra trinkets. The film of Medel is good enough to show he was a great fighter at his peak. It's a shame that even when Harada and Jofre told The Ring this fairly recently in the "Best I faced" series, it's mainly the boxing nuts like us that really understand this.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Chrischrisjs1985 wrote: ↑13 Apr 2021, 16:02 That Marquez-Vazquez series was such a classic. One of the finest series in boxing history I believe. From the first fight to the third the fights just got better. That fight had it all. Knockdowns, changes in momentum, skills, power etc; just an incredible fight and the finest I have ever attended (you can see my a few rows back clapping at the start of every round next to my buddy in the bright green Mexico jersey).
Medel was a fine fighter. It's hard to explain it to modern fans who don't understand context or era's but I say with Medel's who's who of victims (I posted it earlier in the thread on great non-champs), that would be enough to be considered a two or three-weight, multiple time champion and bona-fide hall of famer in today's game of extra divisions, and so many extra trinkets. The film of Medel is good enough to show he was a great fighter at his peak. It's a shame that even when Harada and Jofre told The Ring this fairly recently in the "Best I faced" series, it's mainly the boxing nuts like us that really understand this.
I was lucky enough to be in my wife' hometown when I saw the first fight.They had it on for free. I wasn't familiar with either boys but after watching the first fight I made sure I crossed the border to watch the ensuing matches on free TV.
When you say that it's hard to explain to modern fans the quality of a Joe Medel of course we could probably throw in an additional 20 to 50 fighters,who if they were fighting today,would be on TV and wear some semblance of a title belt. The sport is on its last legs and I blame the younger fans(if they haven't vaulted over to UFC) that think that what's going on today in boxing is normal. De La Hoya wanting to fight again? Tyson and Holyfield in the ring again?Crawford and Spence fighting these guys with inflated phony records and the media hyping it up as a significant fight,but their promoters not wanting them to get in the ring because it might jeopardize the cash cow.Canelo getting stonewalled by Golden Boy so he has to go out there on his own and find someone with the inflated undefeated record and then when the guy gets in the ring he doesn't win a round.Joshua with all those muscles getting pancaked by a fat Andy Ruiz. Then the rematch and Ruiz acts like he doesn't like being the champ and lets Joshua and his bulging biceps peck away and win back the title.
And then you go to a thread and watch two guys call each other names because one guy thinks Roberto Duran was a better fighter than Sugar Ray Leonard and the other guy thinks that Leonard was better and so instead of letting it drop they go on for weeks insulting each other. Sometimes I think Federico Fellini would get a lot of ideas reading this stuff.
Federico Fellini
He would have gotten inspired by what some of these guys post on BoxRec
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chrisjs1985
- Lightweight
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
I think a big issue is that more and more "fans" appear to be fans of a fighter more than the sport now. These justify and accept the BS as you said too. I never used to encounter fans of promoters until recently and now current scene talk a lot just comes down to bragging who's promoter is better, who's "ducking" who, and talking more about the business. There are still great fans, but they are outnumbered. Heavily. I have seen the sport get worse and worse in recent years to the point now the fighters play the game worse than ever. They saw Mayweather do it and assume it will work for them. They make their names of social media as much as in the ring now. It's really bad. It's no coincidence that the best fights are generally bantamweight and under and none of these guys have major social media presence or speak English. There's something to that. They still think boxing first.
I don't really like to get into pissing matches with people, nor do I like to read people who I know aren't that clued up profess to be experts and everyone else is stupid. That's why I only talk current scene boxing in private groups where there is a screening process and there is banning, or in person over beers. History folks are a little better, and more respectful (I suspect the average age and IQ is higher than the new-age fans), but also see what you see sometimes into this "My guy is better than your guy" nonsense.
I don't really like to get into pissing matches with people, nor do I like to read people who I know aren't that clued up profess to be experts and everyone else is stupid. That's why I only talk current scene boxing in private groups where there is a screening process and there is banning, or in person over beers. History folks are a little better, and more respectful (I suspect the average age and IQ is higher than the new-age fans), but also see what you see sometimes into this "My guy is better than your guy" nonsense.
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dagosd2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 8638
- Joined: 01 Sep 2007, 03:31
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
A lot of good sense with what you say.I think you could say that much of what is posted is a microcosm of what you get from the man on the street.He has a very little understanding of history.You're around 20 years younger than me but your knowledge of boxing history represents yourself as being someone older,thus wiser. But today's gurus don't want to know anything if it didn't happen when they were alive.Thus their growth is stunted.Also their knowledge you can fit into a thimble. i wasn't alive when Jack Dempsey was a fighter yet I liked the sport so I read and learned about Jack Dempsey. There's little humility out there today.It also goes further than that.There could be an OCD club formed where if certain people don't get their way it not only ruins a discussion but becomes something eerie.It degenerates into something weird.You want to stay away from it. An ego exposed like Captain Queeg on the witness stand.If you don't agree with me then I have to hate you. I think shrinks charge 500 dollars an hour to listen to people reveal themselves.. Why see a shrink when you can purge yourself on a blog site? I've noticed the last few years many of the old posters have gone away or they seldom get in these back and forth melodramas anymore. The views and repiies are way down from what it used to be.With the world unspirited by Covid who wants to become a part of some stupid argument that doesn't amount to a hill of beans?You would think that fighters ,current and ex ,would participate on these forums but they know what they would be getting themselves into most of the time.Some guy wanting to hog everything and show the world how much he knows when in reality he's suffering from some mental illness.chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑13 Apr 2021, 19:15 I think a big issue is that more and more "fans" appear to be fans of a fighter more than the sport now. These justify and accept the BS as you said too. I never used to encounter fans of promoters until recently and now current scene talk a lot just comes down to bragging who's promoter is better, who's "ducking" who, and talking more about the business. There are still great fans, but they are outnumbered. Heavily. I have seen the sport get worse and worse in recent years to the point now the fighters play the game worse than ever. They saw Mayweather do it and assume it will work for them. They make their names of social media as much as in the ring now. It's really bad. It's no coincidence that the best fights are generally bantamweight and under and none of these guys have major social media presence or speak English. There's something to that. They still think boxing first.
I don't really like to get into pissing matches with people, nor do I like to read people who I know aren't that clued up profess to be experts and everyone else is stupid. That's why I only talk current scene boxing in private groups where there is a screening process and there is banning, or in person over beers. History folks are a little better, and more respectful (I suspect the average age and IQ is higher than the new-age fans), but also see what you see sometimes into this "My guy is better than your guy" nonsense.
I'm hoping that with your book you can gravitate to a more sane group of boxing enthusiasts. I could see you on a panel on ESPN discussing a fight or at ringside as a color man working with the emcee and another fighter.Maybe get a weekly column for a boxing website or journal.
As for me I'm fine where I am. Most people leave me alone.Sometimes i'll venture somewhere else and then here comes Captain Video trying sneak in a sucker punch.Like I said before boxing is the theme of all this but I use it as a backdrop.Even when I get specific,I'm really talking about something else. Hell,it's cheaper than throwing 500 dollars at a shrink.
Tomorrow I go in for the left hip to be replaced.If I'm not back in a few days say something nice about me when I'm gone.(From the song of the same name)
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chrisjs1985
- Lightweight
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- Joined: 11 Jan 2018, 12:45
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Good luck with the surgery Roger!
Yes, it's sort of a weird one. The sport is at it's lowest point for reasons mentioned (Crawford-Spence sums a lot of it up), and with the internet making things so easy, and books being so easy to find and cheap, you'd think this would help inspire a lot of people to truly get acquainted with the glory era's and past legends. Unfortunately the type of folks who'll tell us how badass the unproven Ryan Garcia, Gervonta Davis, Devin Haney's are also have disdain for things that happened before their interest in boxing started. Floyd Mayweather fans are without question the worst for this. They think ANY praise for ANY fighter is an attack on their guy so they shut down and become disdainful. Again, their guy is bigger than the sport.
I'm 35, started watching boxing in the early to mid 90's and realized early on that the history of the sport is incredible and the stories are. Maybe it helps that I didn't have a tool like boxrec to just go on and scan a record for 2-3 mins, not recognize the names, or the context, and see multiple losses and think my research is complete or my curiosity has been piqued. Whatever it is, I am grateful, because while I always watch the fights, I always prefer reading and watching the older generations.
Yes, it's sort of a weird one. The sport is at it's lowest point for reasons mentioned (Crawford-Spence sums a lot of it up), and with the internet making things so easy, and books being so easy to find and cheap, you'd think this would help inspire a lot of people to truly get acquainted with the glory era's and past legends. Unfortunately the type of folks who'll tell us how badass the unproven Ryan Garcia, Gervonta Davis, Devin Haney's are also have disdain for things that happened before their interest in boxing started. Floyd Mayweather fans are without question the worst for this. They think ANY praise for ANY fighter is an attack on their guy so they shut down and become disdainful. Again, their guy is bigger than the sport.
I'm 35, started watching boxing in the early to mid 90's and realized early on that the history of the sport is incredible and the stories are. Maybe it helps that I didn't have a tool like boxrec to just go on and scan a record for 2-3 mins, not recognize the names, or the context, and see multiple losses and think my research is complete or my curiosity has been piqued. Whatever it is, I am grateful, because while I always watch the fights, I always prefer reading and watching the older generations.
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scartissue
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1893
- Joined: 31 Mar 2002, 20:00
Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing
Rog and Chris, to begin, good luck tomorrow, Rog. I know that's been bothering you for awhile. As for being back in a few days, I'm sure you will be. You're too ornery to be going anywhere (LOL). I look forward to tipping a beer with you, Rick and Chris in L.A. later this year.dagosd2000 wrote: ↑13 Apr 2021, 21:17A lot of good sense with what you say.I think you could say that much of what is posted is a microcosm of what you get from the man on the street.He has a very little understanding of history.You're around 20 years younger than me but your knowledge of boxing history represents yourself as being someone older,thus wiser. But today's gurus don't want to know anything if it didn't happen when they were alive.Thus their growth is stunted.Also their knowledge you can fit into a thimble. i wasn't alive when Jack Dempsey was a fighter yet I liked the sport so I read and learned about Jack Dempsey. There's little humility out there today.It also goes further than that.There could be an OCD club formed where if certain people don't get their way it not only ruins a discussion but becomes something eerie.It degenerates into something weird.You want to stay away from it. An ego exposed like Captain Queeg on the witness stand.If you don't agree with me then I have to hate you. I think shrinks charge 500 dollars an hour to listen to people reveal themselves.. Why see a shrink when you can purge yourself on a blog site? I've noticed the last few years many of the old posters have gone away or they seldom get in these back and forth melodramas anymore. The views and repiies are way down from what it used to be.With the world unspirited by Covid who wants to become a part of some stupid argument that doesn't amount to a hill of beans?You would think that fighters ,current and ex ,would participate on these forums but they know what they would be getting themselves into most of the time.Some guy wanting to hog everything and show the world how much he knows when in reality he's suffering from some mental illness.chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑13 Apr 2021, 19:15 I think a big issue is that more and more "fans" appear to be fans of a fighter more than the sport now. These justify and accept the BS as you said too. I never used to encounter fans of promoters until recently and now current scene talk a lot just comes down to bragging who's promoter is better, who's "ducking" who, and talking more about the business. There are still great fans, but they are outnumbered. Heavily. I have seen the sport get worse and worse in recent years to the point now the fighters play the game worse than ever. They saw Mayweather do it and assume it will work for them. They make their names of social media as much as in the ring now. It's really bad. It's no coincidence that the best fights are generally bantamweight and under and none of these guys have major social media presence or speak English. There's something to that. They still think boxing first.
I don't really like to get into pissing matches with people, nor do I like to read people who I know aren't that clued up profess to be experts and everyone else is stupid. That's why I only talk current scene boxing in private groups where there is a screening process and there is banning, or in person over beers. History folks are a little better, and more respectful (I suspect the average age and IQ is higher than the new-age fans), but also see what you see sometimes into this "My guy is better than your guy" nonsense.
I'm hoping that with your book you can gravitate to a more sane group of boxing enthusiasts. I could see you on a panel on ESPN discussing a fight or at ringside as a color man working with the emcee and another fighter.Maybe get a weekly column for a boxing website or journal.
As for me I'm fine where I am. Most people leave me alone.Sometimes i'll venture somewhere else and then here comes Captain Video trying sneak in a sucker punch.Like I said before boxing is the theme of all this but I use it as a backdrop.Even when I get specific,I'm really talking about something else. Hell,it's cheaper than throwing 500 dollars at a shrink.
Tomorrow I go in for the left hip to be replaced.If I'm not back in a few days say something nice about me when I'm gone.(From the song of the same name)