How Good Do You Think Esteban DeJesus Was ?

[elmersalsa]

Duran had the same exact amount of time to prepare for the rematch that Leonard did. There are no excuses. He took the fight, and he lost. Period.

Duran did not even know that there was an immediate rematch. His management team took the fight and THE BAIT which was $8 million dollars that they probably won't see again. They were not looking for Duran's interest but their own.

I love Duran. I'm a much bigger fan of Duran than I am of Leonard. Not being prepared for a big fight is his own fault. It doesn't take away from Leonard's achievement 1 single bit.

On that standpoint, yes. It was Duran's fault. But I cannot say that it was a legit win like the De Jesus one. Now that was LEGIT!

[Ambling Alp II]

Duran lost 16 times in his career. How many times was it "legit"?

[elmersalsa]

Duran lost 16 times in his career. How many times was it "legit"?

One time. At his very best.

The other ones were out his prime and fighting guys at their own weight class.

Just like Sugar Ray. His only legit loss was with Duran.

[gilgamesh]

Duran did not even know that there was an immediate rematch. His management team took the fight and THE BAIT which was $8 million dollars that they probably won't see again. They were not looking for Duran's interest but their own.

I love Duran. I'm a much bigger fan of Duran than I am of Leonard. Not being prepared for a big fight is his own fault. It doesn't take away from Leonard's achievement 1 single bit.

On that standpoint, yes. It was Duran's fault. But I cannot say that it was a legit win like the De Jesus one. Now that was LEGIT!

2 men step in the ring. 1 stops him because the other quit. That's legit.

[gilgamesh]

Duran lost 16 times in his career. How many times was it "legit"?

One time. At his very best.

The other ones were out his prime and fighting guys at their own weight class.

Just like Sugar Ray. His only legit loss was with Duran.

There's never any excuses in Boxing. Even being past your prime. Now of course losing to someone when you're past your prime or under prepared doesn't necessarily mean you'd always lose to that person as Duran didn't in the 1st Leonard fight, but there's no excuses when you lose.

If you came into the ring unprepared or not in condition to win for whatever reason. Ultimately it's on you - the fighter.

I will cut 'em some slack if they get f*cked over by the judges or the referee though because obviously that's beyond your control.

[gilgamesh]

Duran lost 16 times in his career. How many times was it "legit"?

16 times.

Particularly his losses in the 70's and 80's when he was very formidable.

Obviously beating him when he was an older guy isn't as impressive historically, but it was still his choice to keep playing the game, and it's not the fault of the guys who beat him under those conditions.

Same with anyone else that happens too.

[elmersalsa]

I love Duran. I'm a much bigger fan of Duran than I am of Leonard. Not being prepared for a big fight is his own fault. It doesn't take away from Leonard's achievement 1 single bit.

On that standpoint, yes. It was Duran's fault. But I cannot say that it was a legit win like the De Jesus one. Now that was LEGIT!

2 men step in the ring. 1 stops him because the other quit. That's legit.

No, it is not. You got to look at the whole picture. The guy whupped him the first time around. Second time around he did not looked like the first. Something was wrong.

I could give Leonard A LEGIT WIN if Duran came like in Montreal in the greatest of shape when both were.

Duran in New Orleans looked flat. He knew that he was in an OFF NIGHT. He needed more time to train. They did not give it to him.

If I would have seen the same intensity and ferocity as like in Montreal and he quit, then it would have been a legit win for Leonard. Kudos to him. But, everybody knew what really happened. Beating an off night guy is not the same.

But, with De Jesus, Duran was in shape. Duran was active. Duran was in his prime. De Jesus beat him. End of story.

Give the benefit of the doubt.

[elmersalsa]

Duran lost 16 times in his career. How many times was it "legit"?

16 times.

Particularly his losses in the 70's and 80's when he was very formidable.

Obviously beating him when he was an older guy isn't as impressive historically, but it was still his choice to keep playing the game, and it's not the fault of the guys who beat him under those conditions.

Same with anyone else that happens too.

Sugar Ray only legit losd was to Roberto Duran
Joe Louis only legit losd was to Max Schmeling
Roberto Duran only legit loss was to Esteban De Jesus
Muhammad Ali only legit losses were to Joe Frazier and Ken Norton
Willie Pep legit losses were to Sammy Angott and Sandy Saddler

You got the point?

[oogiebe]

Round and round we go, where she stops ,nobody knows!

[gilgamesh]

Duran lost 16 times in his career. How many times was it "legit"?

16 times.

Particularly his losses in the 70's and 80's when he was very formidable.

Obviously beating him when he was an older guy isn't as impressive historically, but it was still his choice to keep playing the game, and it's not the fault of the guys who beat him under those conditions.

Same with anyone else that happens too.

Sugar Ray only legit losd was to Roberto Duran
Joe Louis only legit losd was to Max Schmeling
Roberto Duran only legit loss was to Esteban De Jesus
Muhammad Ali only legit losses were to Joe Frazier and Ken Norton
Willie Pep legit losses were to Sammy Angott and Sandy Saddler

You got the point?

I get the point you're trying to make. You're just wrong.

[Seamus]

Maybe Duran had an off night the first time he fought DeJesus. I think an actual argument could be made that Duran was at his best at Welterweight. One of Duran's problems at LW, and all fighters have imperfections (Leonard could be too patient sometimes) was that he sometimes took a carefree attitude to defense. At WW Duran's defense looked better, something that is common because the guys in the next weightclass up always hit harder.

[elmersalsa]

16 times.

Particularly his losses in the 70's and 80's when he was very formidable.

Obviously beating him when he was an older guy isn't as impressive historically, but it was still his choice to keep playing the game, and it's not the fault of the guys who beat him under those conditions.

Same with anyone else that happens too.

Sugar Ray only legit losd was to Roberto Duran
Joe Louis only legit losd was to Max Schmeling
Roberto Duran only legit loss was to Esteban De Jesus
Muhammad Ali only legit losses were to Joe Frazier and Ken Norton
Willie Pep legit losses were to Sammy Angott and Sandy Saddler

You got the point?

I get the point you're trying to make. You're just wrong.

And yours make it right?

[gilgamesh]

Sugar Ray only legit losd was to Roberto Duran
Joe Louis only legit losd was to Max Schmeling
Roberto Duran only legit loss was to Esteban De Jesus
Muhammad Ali only legit losses were to Joe Frazier and Ken Norton
Willie Pep legit losses were to Sammy Angott and Sandy Saddler

You got the point?

I get the point you're trying to make. You're just wrong.

And yours make it right?

A fighter is responsible for his own condition when he steps in the ring. If he's not in shape or he's past his prime, he better not step in there.

Now of course this doesn't mean that a guy that beats you when you're past your prime could always beat you, but there's never any excuses in Boxing. If you weren't prepared to win, it's on you.

I do sympathize when a guy is clearly f*cked over by the Judges or a Referee though because obviously you have no control whatsoever over that.

[Seamus]

Angel Manfredy lost his very first fight by TKO, but he had a good excuse. He said he'd been partying all night with homies the night before.

[elmersalsa]

I get the point you're trying to make. You're just wrong.

And yours make it right?

A fighter is responsible for his own condition when he steps in the ring. If he's not in shape or he's past his prime, he better not step in there.

Now of course this doesn't mean that a guy that beats you when you're past your prime could always beat you, but there's never any excuses in Boxing. If you weren't prepared to win, it's on you.

I do sympathize when a guy is clearly f*cked over by the Judges or a Referee though because obviously you have no control whatsoever over that.

We all know that a fighter is responsible for his preparation. Then, if you think that Leonard was so great, why they did not give El Cholo more time to prepare to fight AT EVEN TERMS?

His victory over Duran was premeditated and calculated to perfection. He had the leeway that Esteban De Jesus did not have. He was America's darling. He was America's hero. America got to get the glory back at any cost. That was all about.

De Jesus vs Duran fights were fought. AT EVEN TERMS. No calculation nor stipulations. No videotapes. It was pure fighting to be the best.

De Jesus beat Duran at even terms. Leonard did not.

That is all I am saying.

[gilgamesh]

Your opinion on Leonard frankly means nothing. I don't think you can give him credit for anything.

Do you even give him credit for the victory over Hearns?

[elmersalsa]

Your opinion on Leonard frankly means nothing. I don't think you can give him credit for anything.

Do you even give him credit for the victory over Hearns?

Hell yeah! It was Sugar Ray's greatest win. It was legit. Both were in shape. Both were at their primes. Both were at their very best. In their 20s. At their own weight class. There was no stipulations there. They fought AT EVEN TERMS.

Sugar Ray was one of my favorite boxers. But, to me, Duran was better. When BOTH were at their very best, Duran whupped him. End of story.

We cannot say that he beat Duran at Duran's very best. Esteban can say that. He took it to the grave with him.

Let's give credit to Esteban DeJesus for that.

[gilgamesh]

If Sugar Ray is one of your favorite boxers who the f*ck is your least favorite? Because that's the first positive post I've ever seen you make regarding Leonard

And you still had to insult him before it was over.

[Tony1244]

Duran lost 16 times in his career. How many times was it "legit"?

16 times.

Particularly his losses in the 70's and 80's when he was very formidable.

Obviously beating him when he was an older guy isn't as impressive historically, but it was still his choice to keep playing the game, and it's not the fault of the guys who beat him under those conditions.

Same with anyone else that happens too.

Sugar Ray only legit losd was to Roberto Duran
Joe Louis only legit losd was to Max Schmeling
Roberto Duran only legit loss was to Esteban De Jesus
Muhammad Ali only legit losses were to Joe Frazier and Ken Norton
Willie Pep legit losses were to Sammy Angott and Sandy Saddler

You got the point?

I see your point, but "legit" isn't necessarily the right word. Leon legitimately beat Ali for the title. Of course, Muhammad was way past his prime.

Only losses in their prime would make more sense IMO.

[elmersalsa]

If Sugar Ray is one of your favorite boxers who the f*ck is your least favorite? Because that's the first positive post I've ever seen you make regarding Leonard

And you still had to insult him before it was over.

I don't put Leonard on a pedestal like Duran or Ali

[elmersalsa]

To put Esteban De Jesus' career in perspective:

Career: 1969-80
Record: 57-5, 32KOs
KO pct: 56%

Highlights:
Was Puerto Rican, NABF and WBC World Lightweight Champion (1976-78).

Made 4 title defenses of WBC crown.

Won first 16 fights (Record:16-0, 13KOs)

Had only 1 loss in 42 fights before losing to the great Roberto Duran in the rematch. (Record: 41-1, 22KOs), in which he had a 25-fight winning streak from April 1971 to January 1974 (Record: 25-0, 9KOs). On that stretch, he gave Duran his first defeat, and won the Puerto Rican and NABF Lightweight Championships.

Beat 3 out of 4 world champions and beat 1 out of 2 hall of famers.

His only 2 losses at lightweight was with Duran.

Historical Impact: A Puerto Rican boxer-puncher which is considered one of the top 20 lightweight division greatest fighters by The Ring Magazine. Was the first man to knocked down the great Roberto Duran, and did it twice in the first round in successive bouts. The only and first man to ever beat Duran at Duran's prime. First man ever to fight Duran 3 times.

Defining Fight: W10 Roberto Duran...November 17th, 1972...

[Ambling Alp II]

16 times.

Particularly his losses in the 70's and 80's when he was very formidable.

Obviously beating him when he was an older guy isn't as impressive historically, but it was still his choice to keep playing the game, and it's not the fault of the guys who beat him under those conditions.

Same with anyone else that happens too.

Sugar Ray only legit losd was to Roberto Duran
Joe Louis only legit losd was to Max Schmeling
Roberto Duran only legit loss was to Esteban De Jesus
Muhammad Ali only legit losses were to Joe Frazier and Ken Norton
Willie Pep legit losses were to Sammy Angott and Sandy Saddler

You got the point?

I see your point, but "legit" isn't necessarily the right word. Leon legitimately beat Ali for the title. Of course, Muhammad was way past his prime.

Only losses in their prime would make more sense IMO.

I think they have to able close their prime. With Duran, though, elmer acts like the is the only guy who ever moved up in weight.

The Leonard loss counts. The Benitez loss counts.
You can't just use the off night excuse when it favors your guy. Its about lame an excuse as you possibly come up with. elmer carries the cry babying to an extreme.

[oogiebe]

The greatest of greats win when they have an "off" night.

[elmersalsa]

To put Esteban De Jesus' career in perspective:

Career: 1969-80
Record: 57-5, 32KOs
KO pct: 56%

Highlights:
Was Puerto Rican, NABF and WBC World Lightweight Champion (1976-78).

Made 4 title defenses of WBC crown.

Won first 16 fights (Record:16-0, 13KOs)

Had only 1 loss in 42 fights before losing to the great Roberto Duran in the rematch. (Record: 41-1, 22KOs), in which he had a 25-fight winning streak from April 1971 to January 1974 (Record: 25-0, 9KOs). On that stretch, he gave Duran his first defeat, and won the Puerto Rican and NABF Lightweight Championships.

Beat 3 out of 4 world champions and beat 1 out of 2 hall of famers.

His only 2 losses at lightweight was with Duran.

Historical Impact: A Puerto Rican boxer-puncher which is considered one of the top 20 lightweight division greatest fighters by The Ring Magazine. Was the first man to knocked down the great Roberto Duran, and did it twice in the first round in successive bouts. The only and first man to ever beat Duran at Duran's prime. First man ever to fight Duran 3 times.

Defining Fight: W10 Roberto Duran....November 17, 1972...... First man ever to knock down and defeat the Panamanian legend...And he decked him in the very first round!

Other Defining Fights: W12 Josue Marquez, W12 Ray Lampkin, WK10 Alfonso Frazier,LKO11 Roberto Duran (II), L15 Antonio Cervantes and W15 Ishimatsu Suzuki

[elmersalsa]

Sugar Ray only legit losd was to Roberto Duran
Joe Louis only legit losd was to Max Schmeling
Roberto Duran only legit loss was to Esteban De Jesus
Muhammad Ali only legit losses were to Joe Frazier and Ken Norton
Willie Pep legit losses were to Sammy Angott and Sandy Saddler

You got the point?

I see your point, but "legit" isn't necessarily the right word. Leon legitimately beat Ali for the title. Of course, Muhammad was way past his prime.

Only losses in their prime would make more sense IMO.

I think they have to able close their prime. With Duran, though, elmer acts like the is the only guy who ever moved up in weight.

The Leonard loss counts. The Benitez loss counts.
You can't just use the off night excuse when it favors your guy. Its about lame an excuse as you possibly come up with. elmer carries the cry babying to an extreme.

The Leonard loss does not count to me as legit. He beat the guy in the first fight. Give the benefit of the doubt. And he beat Sugar Ray AT EVEN TERMS. Something that Sugar Ray did not do against him.

But, Esteban beat Duran AT EVEN TERMS.

Those other losses you want to put at Duran were losses. Not legit losses. Duran had to go up in weight to fight Wilfred Benitez. A Sugar Ray victim. The fight was not at 147lbs, but at 154lbs. A weight class that Duran lost speed and agility. At 154lbs and beyond, Duran was fighting larger and faster men. He could not match their speed because THE WEIGHT was not favourable to him.

Put Benitez at 147lbs in Montreal that night and it would have been a different story.