Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑14 Apr 2021, 15:22
You call them the way that favors the guys that you like, and against those that you don't.
You routinely change the criteria to favor your favorites. Specific examples where you do this has been pointed out by people like a million times over the years.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑14 Apr 2021, 15:22
You call them the way that favors the guys that you like, and against those that you don't.
You routinely change the criteria to favor your favorites. Specific examples where you do this has been pointed out by people like a million times over the years.
That it is not true
Nothing could be more true. Like your other thread where you said the board placed Mike gibbons when in fact it was only you and 6 or 7 of us adamantly disagree with you.
Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑16 Apr 2021, 19:35
Wanted to include McCallum because hes a favorite and realized its absurd if toney isnt included since hes obviously better
Both were great fighters. They were great top 100. But Oscar???? Mmmmm?
If you don't want him in your top 100, fine. There are obviously a lot of guys that a very close and if you have him just out of the top 100, fine.
The problem is that you act like he was a joke. He fought the best competition of anyone during his era. Sometimes, he performed well, some times not.
What people don't like is that just because you don't like him, you won't give credit in situations that are similar to when you give credit to one of your favorites.
Then you rip him for things that you don't rip your favorites for.
We have pointed this out many times with specific examples just on this thread as well as other threads.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 Apr 2021, 11:05
If you don't want him in your top 100, fine. There are obviously a lot of guys that a very close and if you have him just out of the top 100, fine.
The problem is that you act like he was a joke. He fought the best competition of anyone during his era. Sometimes, he performed well, some times not.
What people don't like is that just because you don't like him, you won't give credit in situations that are similar to when you give credit to one of your favorites.
Then you rip him for things that you don't rip your favorites for.
We have pointed this out many times with specific examples just on this thread as well as other threads.
Oscar De La Hoya was a complete joke, Alp! End of story.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 Apr 2021, 11:05
If you don't want him in your top 100, fine. There are obviously a lot of guys that a very close and if you have him just out of the top 100, fine.
The problem is that you act like he was a joke. He fought the best competition of anyone during his era. Sometimes, he performed well, some times not.
What people don't like is that just because you don't like him, you won't give credit in situations that are similar to when you give credit to one of your favorites.
Then you rip him for things that you don't rip your favorites for.
We have pointed this out many times with specific examples just on this thread as well as other threads.
Oscar De La Hoya was a complete joke, Alp! End of story.
Came in to say that Luis Rodriguez was a truly great fighter and severely underrated. I believe he won at least three of those fights with Griffith, and has a very underrated record at middleweight.
chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑26 Apr 2021, 14:08
Came in to say that Luis Rodriguez was a truly great fighter and severely underrated. I believe he won at least three of those fights with Griffith, and has a very underrated record at middleweight.
I just saw the Emile Griffith vs Luis Manuel Rodriguez fight #2 and El Feo clearly beat Griffith. I think by a wide margin, too!
Luis Manuel Rodriguez, the great Cuban boxer nicknamed "El Feo" (The Ugly One), vould not be more sharper than the night of Thursday, March 31, 1963 at the famous Los Angeles' Dodger Stadium.
He outmanuevered the great Emile Griffith, the Welterweight World Champion from St Thomas, US Virgin Islands.
It was the second fight between them. Griffith won the first fight in a close one but in this time around, Luis Manuel was sharper, busier and quicker with hands and foot, outboxing Griffith with left peppered jabs.
Rodriguez was as smooth as he can be for the title and did not dissapoint himelf. Griffith was the aggressor but could not find him.
Rodriguez, 25, won in all the judges scorecards by unanimous decision. He improved to 51-2, with 21KOs and is the new welter king.
Griffith, 24, loses his crown for the second time. The first time he lost the welterweight crown was in the rematch with Rodriguez' countryman Benny "Kid" Paret. Griffith drops to 35-4, 13KOs
When Emile Griffith fought Luis Manuel Rodriguez for the rubber-match, it was a fight hard to score.
Many people had said, including in this forum that the Cuban El Feo CLEARLY won the 3rd fight.
I ask those people what fight were they watching?
I did not see a clear-cut win for Rodriguez at all. I saw Griffith winning the rubber match by a hair. If anything, I gave Rodriguez the last 3 rounds. But Griffith pressured more in the first and middle rounds.
Griffith won a split decision of 9-6, and 8-7 with Rodriguez ridicuosly winning 10-5 in the other card? What fight that judge, Joe Armstrong was watching?
I scored it 6-5 with 4 even rounds for Griffith. But, it could have gone either way. But before watching this fight, I have heard for years that Rodriguez won outright. That is not true in my eyes. It was a very close and hard fight to score. It was way harder than the first 2 fights.
The fight was on Saturday, June 8, 1963 at Griffith's backyard of Madison Square Garden in New York City. El Feo's reign was one of the shortest title reigns in boxing history. No doubt about that fact.
Griffith on this night made history as the first and only fighter to win the World Welterweight Crown 3 times!
Griffith, the champion for the third time, improves to 36-4 with 13KOs.
After losing the welter crown to the great Emile Griffith 3 months earlier, El Feo rebounded with an spectacular win over American and former World Jr Middleweight Champion Denny Moyer of Portland, OR.
Moyer, 24 had a couple of great wins in his resume of 35 wins and 11 losses with 8 knockout wins. Among one of his great wins was against Griffith.
The fight was at jr middleweight limit. Luis Manuel totally outclassed Moyer. He looked too sharp to be true. He stopped Moyer in 9 rounds. Rodriguez dominated the fight.
The fight was at Miami Convention Center in Miami Beach, FL.
The Cuban El Feo kept winning for the second and third time in a row when he decisioned American Wilbert "Skeeter" McClure of Toledo, OH.
McClure, 25, was a former Olympic Boxing Gold Medalist of the 1960 Games in Rome, Italy. He was Cassius Clay olympic teammate. He, like Clay, was undefeated in 14 bouts. Among his best wins was a decision win over top American middleweight contender Gomeo Brennan.
At 6'0" tall, many asked why he did not used his jab and physical advantages against the Cuban. In both fights, Rodriguez outclassed him. First in New York and dropping him in the third round by a right hand. He gallantly fought hard, but one can see that a man of only 14 pro fights was not a fighter enough to beat an experienced professional like Rodriguez of 56 fights.
In the rematch in Miami, 3 months later, on December 27, 1963, 2 days after Christmas Day, Rodriguez doubled the trick one more time, dropping McClure in the 7th round this time in another unanimous decision win.
Rodriguez was faster, on beat and much more aggressive than the part-time school teacher. Rodriguez never stopped throwing punches. And in the clinches, he threw many punches to the body. I don't know why McClure asked for a rematch against someone that beat him handily and had much more pro fights than he had. At least 42 more fights than McClure.
Maybe boxing was not his real calling. Maybe it was something like a short career. Also a college graduate and a pretty boy, he probably did not see himself fighting too long anyway. So, if Skeeter wanted to end his career quickly, then he probably showed that he wanted to fight the very best, starting with El Feo.
Rodriguez improves to 53-3 with 22KOs. And is in a route to fight the great Emile Griffith for the fourth time. McClure loses for second time in a row and his record is 14-2, 6KOs.
A week earlier, on December 20, in New York City, Rodriguez' nemesis, the great welterweight king Griffith, lost by a technical knockout against rugged baldheaded middleweight contender Rubin "Hurricane" Carter of Paterson, NJ in only one round!
El Feo's next bout was with dangerous top American middleweight contender Holly Mims from the Nation's Capital.
Mims, 35, was in his 16th year as a pro fighter and already had a ledger of fighting against the world's best at 160lbs. In total, by the time he fought Luis Manuel Rodriguez, Mims fought 14 top notch former champions and contenders.
Looking at his resume, Mims should be considered one of the top 50 greatest boxers that never won a world championship.
In 94 pro fights until then, Mims was never stopped. He fought the very best of his era like former champions Sugar Ray Robinson (L10), Dick Tiger (L10), Emile Griffith (L10) and Joey Giardello (L10).
He also fought Rubin "Hurricane" Carter (L10), and beat world champions like Johnny Bratton (twice), and future world heavyweight champ Jimmy Ellis (L10). He had a pair of split fights with top American contenders like George Benton, Ellsworth "Spider" Webb, Henry Hank, and also wins against top middleweight contender Jose Basora of Puerto Rico (WTKO8) and Americans top men like Gomeo Brennan (W10) and Lester Felton (W10).
Mims record at the time was 62-26-6 with 13KOs. Not a big puncher, but a fast handed technician with great stamina and good chin. And why I am mentioning this about Mims. It is because to show what type of fighters Rodriguez was facing. El Feo fought anybody, anytime and anywhere if you was in his era.
Rodriguez, with a record of 54-3, with 22KOs, dominated Mims with fast jabs and working with fast uppercuts on the inside. Mims at 35, could not keep up the pace with the master boxer from Camaguey, Cuba, but had his moments. It clearly showed that Mims was not in his prime, but still, he had some left in the tank.
Rodriguez wins by UD and improves to 55-3, with 22KOs. His aim: Is a fourth fight with Griffith for the title. I scored the fight in rounds 6-3-1 for El Feo.
26 losses lol. Oscarito only fought once a fighter who ended his career with over 10 defeats. What did The Great Golden Boy do? Crushed him in one. And why I am mentioning this about The Great Oscarito. It is because to show what type of fighters the dual American AND Mexican citizen El Chico de Oro was facing.
Jaywheel wrote: ↑28 May 2021, 15:15
26 losses lol. Oscarito only fought once a fighter who ended his career with over 10 defeats. What did The Great Golden Boy do? Crushed him in one. And why I am mentioning this about The Great Oscarito. It is because to show what type of fighters the dual American AND Mexican citizen El Chico de Oro was facing.
On the Friday night of June 12, 1964 at Las Vegas' Convention Center, Luis Manuel Rodriguez meets the great arch-rival Emile Griffith of US Virgin Islands via New York City for the 4th and last time.
At this point, Griffith is leading the rivalry 2-1. One of thos wins were in a non-title affair. This fourth time shows the rubber match at the World Welterweight Title, this time Griffith holding it.
The first time these greats met for the world title at 147lbs, Rodriguez won outright. He was clearly better and the busier puncher. But, 3 months later, Rodriguez lost the crown back to Griffith in a very squakey close fight. It was that close. How close? Very close!
This time, a year later and 4 days off their last encounter, Griffith and Rodriguez got something to prove to the world: Who really is the real world welterweight champion.
El Feo, with a record of 56-3, 22 KOs, is not unimaginable to think that 2 of his 3 losses were against Griffith. That is how dominant Rodriguez was in his prime at welterweight, jr middleweight and middleweight ranks. So far he whupped a great crop of the who is who of the 60s decade top rank fighters in those weight classes. He used to beat them once and maybe twice to show his supremacy.
But, what was his problem when it was time to fight Griffith. Does Griffith's style too complicated for him? Does styles make fights here? What was it? Of the last 3 fights between them, were rough and tough long lasting encounters. They were very hard to score fights. And this fourth fight was not any different. El Feo did not help his case when American referee Harold Krausse took a point away off Rodriguez for hitting low, even though he won that round in my view.
Those that say that El Feo won 3 out of 4 fights or should have been 2-2 in the rivalry, excuse me but I don't what they saw or what they are talking about. Did they really saw those fights or they just saw the highlights. No way the 4 fights were viewed that way in my eyes. They were 4 hard fought contested fights that Griffith deserved the nod justly in 3 of those fights. The only fight that I saw that Rodriguez really dominated was fight #2, their first title fight between the two. Fight #3 was squeakly won by Griffith. So it was fight #4.
What I saw was that El Feo was more busier in the volume of punches. But many of thos punches were blocked by Griffith's arms and forearms. Let's give Gtiffith credit as one of the all-time best greatest inside fighters. There was no shame for Rodriguez to lose to one of the greatest fighters ever.
Griffith, 26, improves to 41-5, with 15KOs. And retains the World Welterweight Championship.
I scored the fight 69-66 in favor of Griffith in a 5-point must system and 144 to 141 in a 10-point must system.
After the fight, El Feo blamed boxing officials and promoters as "Griffith's friends".
Luis Manuel's last loss against the great Emile Griffith for the World Welterweight Championship did not discouraged him one bit. At least it seems that way.
After losing to Griffith 3 out 4 fights, all by decision, El Feo went into a remarkable winning streak of 15 fights from November 1964 to March 1966. On that winning streak, he beat top dangerous American top middleweight contender Rubin "Hurricane" Carter TWICE by decision. Carter stopped Griffith in one round in 1963. El Feo also stopped American journeyman LC Morgan in 2 rounds. And stopped top American middleweight contender George Benton of Philadelphia, PA in 9.
After that, Rodriguez lost the rubber-match soundly against American and future World Welterweight Champion and Hall of Famer, Curtis Cokes of Dallas, TX in July 1966. The fight was for the Vacant World Welterweight Title Eliminator left by Griffith.
Many guys would have quit and called it a career after winning 15 fights in a row to be in top of the rankings only to lose then for a title eliminator. Not Rodriguez. He amazingly won 15 more fights in a row from September 1966 to May 1968. On that strech, he beat dangerous American top middleweight contender "Bad" Bennie Briscoe of Philadelphia, PA TWICE by decision. He also beaf top American middleweight contenders Ted Wright and Jimmy Lester. El Feo also beat by decision top middleweight contender Juan Carlos Rivero of Argentina.
By that time, Rodriguez was campaigning at the super welterweight and middleweight ranks. He was no longer fighting welterweights after the year 1966.
After losing by decision in June 1968 to future WBA World Light-heavyweight king Vicente Rondon of Venezuela, El Feo fought again Rondon and this time, El Feo won by unanimous decision. Rodriguez went into a 9-fight win streak to finally face World Middleweight Champion Nino Benvenutti of Italy for Benvenutti's crown.
Unfortunately, none of the fights mentioned above AFTER his fourth fight with Griffith were available on YouTube. Only the fight with Benvenutti is available. Damn!
After losing to the great Emile Griffith in the welter title rubber match on June of 1964, El Feo or The Ugly One, won 40 out of his next 43 contests against top wlterweight, super welter and middleweight contenders of thecera for another shot at a world crown. It took him 5 years for the process.
Rodriguez left the welter class for good in 1966 after losing to future hall of famer and champion Curtis Cokes of Dallas, TX in a one-sided beating for the world welterweight title eliminator.
Ridriguez had two 15-fight win streaks in his next 43 bouts. He only knew to win. He was a winner against the very best.
On Saturday night of November 22, 1969 at the Pallacio dello Sport in Rome, Italy, El Feo at 32 years old had his last title shot. The opponent this time was World Middleweight Champion Nino Benvenutti. The local hero.
Benvenutti, like Rodriguez' stablemate, the great Cassius Clay, aka Muhammad Ali, also won a gold medal at the 1960 Olympic Games in Rome at the welterweight division. And it was Nino, not Clay, the most outstanding fighter of the games that year.
By this time, Benvenutti had won the middleweight crown twice. Before that he was the World Super Welterweight Champion in which he lost it in one of boxing's greatest upsets to Kim Ki Soo of South Korea.
At the pro ranks, Nino won his first 65 fights. He beat Griffith 2 out of 3 for the middleweight crown trilogy. He had a sensational record of 79-3-1 with 32KOs.
Extremely handsome and tall at 5'11", Benvenutti was also of Anerican legendary singer Frank Sinatra favorite boxer.
So, it was a fight between the Handsome One against the Ugly One. As so it seemed. But there was nothing ugly in my view about Rodriguez being physically, stylisticlly or career-wise. Rodriguez' resume is one of the all-time best when it comes of winning streaks and wins against of who is who of the welterweight and middleweight contenders.
If you combine Nino and El Feo's records, they had an astonishlingly enviable record of 176 wins and only 10 losses with 1 draw with 75KOs between them to wit. Has there been a fight of two fighters fighting with this kind of record combined? Not too many.
And their MOST NOTORIOUS opponent? Who else, the great Emile Griffith. Griffith fought a total of 100 rounds against the two. All hard contested fights.
Benvenutti, the crowd favorite, was peppering beautifully left jabs on El Feo's face for the first 3 rounds. Benvenutti's jab was one of boxing's all-time best. But in the middle rounds, Rodriguez took care of the fight with speed and combination punching in volumes. He at 32, was still a voluminous puncher.
By round 8th, Nino had a cut in his left eyelid caused by the combinations of El Feo plus some rough and tumble tactics. It was brutal in a way.
In round 11th, all of the sudden in a punching exchange, Benvenutti connected out of nowhere a perfecly timed left hook to El Feo's jaw. Rodriguez fell like a tree....backwards!
Rodriguez tried to get up, but he was flat out knocked out. His 32-year old legs ain't gonna lift him up. He stayed down as he should. It was over. Benvenutti retains his world middleweight crown.
After that heartbreaking knockout defeat, Rodriguez never again fought for a world title. He lost as much as he won until his retirement 3 years later in 1972.
This was one of boxing's most successful and underrated careers of all-time. If you look at Luis Manuel Rodriguez' record, he did everything a boxer dreamed of. And he did it for a long time. His record at the end was 107-13 with 35KOs.
(even for you)
I just saw the Emile Griffith vs Luis Manuel Rodriguez fight #2 and El Feo clearly beat Griffith. I think by a wide margin, too!
