Ratings - please read before commenting - Archived

[JCS]

Natasha Jonas strikes me as a weird one..

Drew against Terri Harper, current total points of 43.82...

Then almost beats Katie Taylor, current total points of 79.27

Yet Jonas only has 5.05?

Is she still being strongly handcuffed by the 2018 loss?

[mike1989]

why did Andi Ruiz Jr. climb two places in the rankings?
if goodness should stay in the same place ???

[JCS]

why did Andi Ruiz Jr. climb two places in the rankings?
if goodness should stay in the same place ???

Because he won last night......

[computerrank]

Natasha Jonas strikes me as a weird one..

Drew against Terri Harper, current total points of 43.82...

Then almost beats Katie Taylor, current total points of 79.27

Yet Jonas only has 5.05?

Is she still being strongly handcuffed by the 2018 loss?

Yes, setting the 2018 loss to NC, would give her a rating of 10 points.

[Manrae]

Josh Taylor's MD against Prograis was only in scope for 18 month due to the Boxrec winner-above-loser rule. Now his last stay-busy bout is not enough to keep his old rating.

But the winner of the scheduled bout Taylor vs Ramirez will be the new #1, in case of a draw Ramirez will be #1.

Regarding the value of a win against Zapeda - a win of whom?

I see. It's a bit confusing, but your Pedraza example made me curious... would Pedraza earn less for defeating Zepeda because they had already fought before?

If so, how would a stoppage win over Zepeda or Taylor affect a neutral opponent, like for example
Rikki Naito?
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/580433

Naito stops Zapeda -> Naito would have 72.04 points
Naito stops Taylor -> Naito would have 74.38 points
I seems that Taylor's record is more solid than Zepata's is for WHR.

I see. Would I be correct to assume that if Rikki Naito stops Regis Prograis, then he would have "< 72.04" points?

[computerrank]

I see. It's a bit confusing, but your Pedraza example made me curious... would Pedraza earn less for defeating Zepeda because they had already fought before?

If so, how would a stoppage win over Zepeda or Taylor affect a neutral opponent, like for example
Rikki Naito?
https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/580433

Naito stops Zapeda -> Naito would have 72.04 points
Naito stops Taylor -> Naito would have 74.38 points
I seems that Taylor's record is more solid than Zepata's is for WHR.

I see. Would I be correct to assume that if Rikki Naito stops Regis Prograis, then he would have "< 72.04" points?

No the value was for stopping Zepeda. If Naito would stop Prograis, Naito would be up to 96.8 and Prograis down to 83.1

[margaret thatcher]

wait, so if regis prograis were brutally knocked out by riki naito, prograis would still be ranked above josh taylor and ramirez?

[mike1989]

why did Andi Ruiz Jr. climb two places in the rankings?
if goodness should stay in the same place ???

Because he won last night......

Whom did you win? # 81 of the Criss Areola rating. And Who allowed Andi Ruiz to rise from 7th to 5th place in the rating ???

[computerrank]

Greetings,

I've been looking through various welterweight boxers records(Why? Because my mentor Harrison "Young" Kennedy was ranked at #112, below people with worse records) and have ran across more than one instance where the loser ends up getting more points the winner, sometimes by a large ratio(e.g. almost 4:1 in the Pruitt vs Soriano match).

I can't seem to find any rim or reason for this happening.
Here are some examples of this:
Harper(96.81) vs Flanagan(105.2) 1954 -- Harper(23-3-0) beats Flanagan(68-8-2) in the 10th round by SD.
Wolak(27.65) vs Smith(19.68) 2018 -- Smith(19-3-0) wins over Wolak(21-0-0) after 10 rounds by UD.
Bundrage(48.82) vs Smith(32.33) 2013 -- Smith(24-5-0) wins over Bundrage(32-4-0) after 12 round by MD.
Bellows(5.389) vs Perez(3.194) 2016 -- Perez(15-5-1) wins Bellows(16-1-1) after 8 rounds by SD.
Berto(45.24) vs Karass(23.78) 2016 -- Karass(27-8-3) wins over Berto(28-2-0) in round 12 by TKO.
Roman(8.798) vs Karass (6.818) 2002 -- Karass(7-0-0) wins over Roman(9-0-0) in the 1st round by KO.
Pruitt(51.94) vs Soriano(13.81) 1971 -- Soriano(51-21-1) wins over Pruitt(43-9-2) in the 6th round by TKO.
And just to show it's not a new phenomena, here is one from 1949, it's also the first that I found where the person getting less points also had the worst record.
Savage(18.19) vs Harper(32.93) 1949 -- Savage(23-16-7) wins over Harper(5-0-0) in the 6th round by RTD.

And what's up with some of them displaying 3 digits(e.g. 5.389)of precision and others displaying 1(e.g. 105.2) or 2 digits(27.65)? They can be mixed within a bout(as displayed in first entry - 96.81/105.2) and/or an individual boxers stats(was seen in the two Karass entries(23.78/6.818). This kind of disparities also show up in a broad range of years with no consistency(2016 has an entries with both 2:3 and 2:2 digits. and 1954 has entries with 2:1, 2:2 and 2:3 digits) and classes,.
I'm a retired programmer(I've done desktop(under MS-Win and Unix with C, C++, and Perl) and web applications(under Unix with C++, Perl, and PHP) and this sort of worries me. To my mind this shows that the these ratings may not have been calculated using the same method.
My reasoning for this is that in PHP, the lines from the same database would be displayed using the same group of code(i.e. the function in question loops over the DB and displays each line as it's retrieved) and the actual displays are ALL over the place. I 've seen .000, .001(both for DEBUT's by the way), .021, X.XXX, X.XX XXX.X. Not good.



I

You will find all answers distributed in that thread. Here some explanations regarding your post:
- Boxrec uses the Whole-History-Ratings - WHR - published in a paper here https://www.remi-coulom.fr/WHR/
- The WHR rating of a winner may well be lower than the loser's after an upset. With WHR ratings the rating at bout time is influenced by earlier AND later results. So an upset may not be enough to elevate the rating above the loser's.
- The WHR rating values show a wide scope from 0.001 to 1000. So the presentation with variable decimals was chosen to show the ratings in a column of 5 characters with comparable relative precision of about 0.1 percent (all done in PHP).

[Manrae]

Naito stops Zapeda -> Naito would have 72.04 points
Naito stops Taylor -> Naito would have 74.38 points
I seems that Taylor's record is more solid than Zepata's is for WHR.

I see. Would I be correct to assume that if Rikki Naito stops Regis Prograis, then he would have "< 72.04" points?

No the value was for stopping Zepeda. If Naito would stop Prograis, Naito would be up to 96.8 and Prograis down to 83.1

Ok...

So, are there still plans for displaying the alternative rating system on boxrec alongside the WHR system? I remember a discussion about this a while back, but I could've been mistaken

[computerrank]

...
So, are there still plans for displaying the alternative rating system on boxrec alongside the WHR system? I remember a discussion about this a while back, but I could've been mistaken

Still on the list - but too many other requirements first ...

[computerrank]

why did Andi Ruiz Jr. climb two places in the rankings?
if goodness should stay in the same place ???

Because he won last night......

Whom did you win? # 81 of the Criss Areola rating. And Who allowed Andi Ruiz to rise from 7th to 5th place in the rating ???

Ruiz got 30 points for defeating Areola. That was enough to overtake Povetkin and Usyk, who were only a few points in front of him. But Ruiz will fall back to 90 points on June 7, as soon as his result against Joshua will get out of the 18 months limit, Then he will be ranked #9 ...

[mike1989]

Because he won last night......

Whom did you win? # 81 of the Criss Areola rating. And Who allowed Andi Ruiz to rise from 7th to 5th place in the rating ???

Ruiz got 30 points for defeating Areola. That was enough to overtake Povetkin and Usyk, who were only a few points in front of him. But Ruiz will fall back to 90 points on June 7, as soon as his result against Joshua will get out of the 18 months limit, Then he will be ranked #9 ...

Why didn't the mustache get points for the fight with Derek Chizora? after all Derek's point before Usyk was 119.9 and Areola's rating before Ruiz was 5.299 points ???

[computerrank]

Whom did you win? # 81 of the Criss Areola rating. And Who allowed Andi Ruiz to rise from 7th to 5th place in the rating ???

Ruiz got 30 points for defeating Areola. That was enough to overtake Povetkin and Usyk, who were only a few points in front of him. But Ruiz will fall back to 90 points on June 7, as soon as his result against Joshua will get out of the 18 months limit, Then he will be ranked #9 ...

Why didn't the mustache get points for the fight with Derek Chizora? after all Derek's point before Usyk was 119.9 and Areola's rating before Ruiz was 5.299 points ???

Boxrec Whole-History-Ratings are a network interference system and the new ratings after a bout do not only depend on the last current ratings of the opponents. I told you, but you will never accept.

[Manrae]

...
So, are there still plans for displaying the alternative rating system on boxrec alongside the WHR system? I remember a discussion about this a while back, but I could've been mistaken

Still on the list - but too many other requirements first ...

Yeah I'm sure it will take some time, but I'm happy to know that it's still on the list. Thank you for answering my Q's

Enjoy the fights this weekend, everyone

[mike1989]

Ruiz got 30 points for defeating Areola. That was enough to overtake Povetkin and Usyk, who were only a few points in front of him. But Ruiz will fall back to 90 points on June 7, as soon as his result against Joshua will get out of the 18 months limit, Then he will be ranked #9 ...

Why didn't the mustache get points for the fight with Derek Chizora? after all Derek's point before Usyk was 119.9 and Areola's rating before Ruiz was 5.299 points ???

Boxrec Whole-History-Ratings are a network interference system and the new ratings after a bout do not only depend on the last current ratings of the opponents. I told you, but you will never accept.

Martin Do you think that Ruiz's victory over Areola is higher than Usyk's victory over Chizora ??? Why didn't point Ruiz fall after 18 months of worthy opposition ???

[computerrank]

Why didn't the mustache get points for the fight with Derek Chizora? after all Derek's point before Usyk was 119.9 and Areola's rating before Ruiz was 5.299 points ???

Boxrec Whole-History-Ratings are a network interference system and the new ratings after a bout do not only depend on the last current ratings of the opponents. I told you, but you will never accept.

Martin Do you think that Ruiz's victory over Areola is higher than Usyk's victory over Chizora ??? Why didn't point Ruiz fall after 18 months of worthy opposition ???

- Usyk's win against Chisora was worth more. With that bout his rating at time of the previous win against Witherspoon was 335 points. Without that bout his rating at that time would have been only 253 points. So that is 80 points more.
- Ruiz did not yet fall, because he still has that 223 points from the Joshua bout within the last 18 months (until June 7, 2021). Usyk only has his last bout against Chisora within 18 months.

[computerrank]

I noticed I went from .005 to .001. I just had a fight, that I won via ko, shouldn’t I be going up and gaining more points? Trying to understand this! My ID# 848417

Thanks

There was a change to stricter requirements in Boxrec ratings. You should box better opposition to gain points.

[mike1989]

Boxrec Whole-History-Ratings are a network interference system and the new ratings after a bout do not only depend on the last current ratings of the opponents. I told you, but you will never accept.

Martin Do you think that Ruiz's victory over Areola is higher than Usyk's victory over Chizora ??? Why didn't point Ruiz fall after 18 months of worthy opposition ???

- Usyk's win against Chisora was worth more. With that bout his rating at time of the previous win against Witherspoon was 335 points. Without that bout his rating at that time would have been only 253 points. So that is 80 points more.
- Ruiz did not yet fall, because he still has that 223 points from the Joshua bout within the last 18 months (until June 7, 2021). Usyk only has his last bout against Chisora within 18 months.

For sure, Yndi Ruiz's 18 months end on 06/07/2021, I confused from 05/07/2021 ...)

[pugilisticspecialist]

How many points would Usyk, Huck and Adamek have if they were rated in the all-time cruiserweight rankings?

[computerrank]

How many points would Usyk, Huck and Adamek have if they were rated in the all-time cruiserweight rankings?

Same points. The all-time rating is the career top rating (with a reduction for ratings within the last 15 years).

[pugilisticspecialist]

How many points would Usyk, Huck and Adamek have if they were rated in the all-time cruiserweight rankings?

Same points. The all-time rating is the career top rating (with a reduction for ratings within the last 15 years).

So how many points would they have with the reduction?

[computerrank]

How many points would Usyk, Huck and Adamek have if they were rated in the all-time cruiserweight rankings?

Same points. The all-time rating is the career top rating (with a reduction for ratings within the last 15 years).

So how many points would they have with the reduction?

There is a weight division factor. For Heavyweight it is 1. For Cruiserweight it is (240/200)**3 = 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.2 = 1.728.
So multiply their current Heavyweight all-time ratings by that factor.

Would look like that:

[pugilisticspecialist]

Same points. The all-time rating is the career top rating (with a reduction for ratings within the last 15 years).

So how many points would they have with the reduction?

There is a weight division factor. For Heavyweight it is 1. For Cruiserweight it is (240/200)**3 = 1.2 * 1.2 * 1.2 = 1.728.
So multiply their current Heavyweight all-time ratings by that factor.

Would look like that:

Thanks. It's amazing how far ahead of the pack Haye and Usyk are.

[JohnL]

So the greatest heavyweight of all time was KO'd by Purrity, Brewster and Sanders. Ookaay.