Holman williams a top 10 middleweight of all time

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

take a look at his win resume. williams has one of the best resumes in middleweight history.


marcel cerdan who many rate in the top 10 cant carry holman williams jockstap when it comes to who beat better competition


holman williams beat

charles burley
lloyd marshall
archie moore
jack chase
eddie booker
bert lytell
joe carter
aaron tiger wade
cocoa kid
gene buffalo
joe basora
kid tunero
steve belloise
henry hall- as a middleweight, williams beat underated light-H contender henry hall

thats an incredible win resume for a all time middleweight. williams beat many great middleweights during his career near there prime and he basically beat every single one of the black murderers row middleweights. cerdan never beat a great middleweight near there prime.



now compare that to cerdans win resume

tony zale - past his prime
holman williams- past his prime
george abrams- past his prime
harold green
anton raddick
cyrille dellanoit



thats it???? i mean seriousely williams resume is so far ahead of cerdans its not even funny. you could easily make a case of williams over cerdan.


i mean do we really have to penalize williams that much just cause theres no film on him??? i mean the only film of cerdan is him beating up on european scrubs. based on accomplishments, williams far exceeds cerdan.



no offense to cerdan but facts are facts and facts are that williams win resume far exceeds cerdans yet the average fan never rates williams in the top 10, but almost always rates cerdan in the top 10.

[Woller]

Holman Williams certainly has a good record, but where do we then place Cocoa Kid? The Kid was 8-3-2 against Williams.

Williams

[Arbachakov]

Williams may very well be worthy of a to 10 place.

To assert as such with heavy emphasis on the fact he's better than Cerdan would seem to be faulty logic at best.

Judge him on his own merits.

[DoubleM]

To be fair, Cerdan's resume isn't why I rank him so highly; it's what he did in the ring.

And me. He looked terrific. Very, very sharp, strong, seems to possess a solid chin, top infighter... Wicked combination puncher, calm, poised but at the same time explosive, accurate - painful right hand and a quick left hook he could triple or even quadruple up on. Fleet of foot, fast of fist, alternated between head and body, showed feints, ducking and diving. Cerdan had it all, including heart, determination and discipline.

[theone]

Great topic, as always,Brock! Williams is definitly a hall of fame calibre fighter. Top ten middle? Im not so sure. While I mull it over here are some of my thoughts on the the Holman resume you are using for your argument:

Charles Burley- 3-3 with 1 NC. Truly a great accomplishment.
Lloyd marshall - 2-1 against this overlooked great. Also a great accomplishment.
Archie Moore- 1-1 Although Archie was not yet as great as he was gonna be at lightheavy, it still is an impressive accomplishment against the naturally bigger man.
Eddie Booker- 1-1 against another overlooked great.
Jack Chase- 3 good wins against a good but very inconsistant fighter.
Jose Basora,Steve Belloise- Solid wins against good but not great fight.

Bert Lytell,Gene Buffalo,Kid Tunero, Tiger Wade.- Not impressed with this line up at all, Lytell and Tunero were way too inconsistant, Wade wasnt that good and Buffalo kinda sucked.

Cocoa kid- Went 1-5 when these two fought at middleweight. The one win came when Cocoa was probably done.

Now Henry Hall is an interesting pick for his "top ten Middleweight" resume. If Hall was as good as you imply then Williams must have still had alot in the tank. If that is the case, shouldnt Lamotta and Cerdan be given credit for beating Williams just a year prior?

As for the rest of Cerdans resume that you

Zale- although past his best was probably a more dangerous opponent than anyone you in Hollman's resume except Moore and Burley.
Abrams- Still was ranked and had something left when he faced Cerdan in a hell of a fight.
Green- he was a good fighter, but nothing special.
Raddick and Dellant- Yeah..I agree no big deal.

Remeber however, Hollman may have fought better overall competition than Cerdan, but he also lost a hell of alot more fights and some of those losses were to subpar opponents.

And oh yeah, Cerdan beat him.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Zale- although past his best was probably a more dangerous opponent than anyone you in Hollman's resume except Moore and Burley.

zale even in his prime would have lost to burley, moore, marshall, chase, booker, and of course holman williams


that 35 year old man cerdan fought would have got pummeled by peak versions of the black murders row




bert lytell was very good, a lot better than u say. he ranks alongside with the top of the black murders row.


aaron tiger wade not that good? he was damm good

[DoubleM]

The elite members of the Black Murderer's Row were Burley, Williams, Moore, Chase, Marshall and Booker, at least for my liking. Could we include Charles?

Lytell and Wade were just a notch below. But how about Cocoa Kid?

[DoubleM]

Holman Williams, the Cocoa Kid, Bert Lytell and Ezzard Charles weren't Murderer's Row fighters. They weren't based in California.

Who cares about California? They were all avoided & excellent black fighters.

[granberry]

zale even in his prime would have lost to burley, moore, marshall, chase, booker, and of course holman williams

Gosh. I wonder how Zale beat Al Hostak, Fred Apostoli, Tony Cisco etc etc etc

[granberry]

cerdans win resume


george abrams- past his prime
ha

Georgie Abrams had just beaten Steve Mamakos and Steve Belloise when he fought Cerdan.

So he was definitely not "past his prime."

[dalek]

if abrams was past it tell that to the sugar man.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

cerdans win resume


george abrams- past his prime
ha

Georgie Abrams had just beaten Steve Mamakos and Steve Belloise when he fought Cerdan.

So he was definitely not "past his prime."

he was coming off a 4 year layoff, he was defintley past his prime. belloise knocked abrams out in a rematch.



look at billy conn. was he in his prime when he returned from the war in 1946?? no way even though he was only 28

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

zale even in his prime would have lost to burley, moore, marshall, chase, booker, and of course holman williams

Gosh. I wonder how Zale beat Al Hostak, Fred Apostoli, Tony Cisco etc etc etc

these guys were nothinh compared to burley, marsall, chase, moore, williams, booker


hostak and apostoli were good middlweights, but they werent in the class of the a charley burley

[theone]

these guys were nothinh compared to burley, marsall, chase, moore, williams, booker

Actually Hostak and Apostoli were definitely better than Chase at least as good as Booker, and would have been competitve with Williams and Holman. As good as Williams and Holman were they were definitely beatable and it wouldnt neccasarily be an upset if Hostak or Apostoli pulled off a victory over either.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

these guys were nothinh compared to burley, marsall, chase, moore, williams, booker

Actually Hostak and Apostoli were definitely better than Chase at least as good as Booker, and would have been competitve with Williams and Holman. As good as Williams and Holman were they were definitely beatable and it wouldnt neccasarily be an upset if Hostak or Apostoli pulled off a victory over either.

totally disagree

chase would have won a clear decision over hostak and appostoli and booker would have knocked both of them out.


burley and holman williams are wayyyyyyyy too much for hostak and apostoli.

in fact a peak tony zale would have been thrashed by williams and burley. he ducked them both. tony zale is a chicken, he ducked so many top black fighters








*al hostak lost to a green harry kid mathews who chase and booker beat

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

theone,

u horribly underate jack chase. chase was an excellent fighter, much better than apostoli and hostak


i would pick chase over tony zale too

[DoubleM]

Holman Williams, the Cocoa Kid, Bert Lytell and Ezzard Charles weren't Murderer's Row fighters. They weren't based in California.

Who cares about California? They were all avoided & excellent black fighters.

The term "Black Murderer's Row" referred to a group of black middleweights from California. Joe DiMaggio was a great hitter, and he played for the Yankees, but he wasn't a part of the original Murderer's Row.

Well, however the term came about, they were all part of the same group of avoided contenders.

[Expug]

these guys were nothinh compared to burley, marsall, chase, moore, williams, booker

Actually Hostak and Apostoli were definitely better than Chase at least as good as Booker, and would have been competitve with Williams and Holman. As good as Williams and Holman were they were definitely beatable and it wouldnt neccasarily be an upset if Hostak or Apostoli pulled off a victory over either.

totally disagree

chase would have won a clear decision over hostak and appostoli and booker would have knocked both of them out.


burley and holman williams are wayyyyyyyy too much for hostak and apostoli.

in fact a peak tony zale would have been thrashed by williams and burley. he ducked them both. tony zale is a chicken, he ducked so many top black fighters








*al hostak lost to a green harry kid mathews who chase and booker beat

Im not saying you dont have evidence that Tony Zale ducked alot of black fighters. But maybe you could enlighten me with it. Zale was around the gym all the time when I was a kid at the old CYO and not once did I ever hear anyone claim Zale ducked anyone.
Maybe he did . But I always thought he was one of the tougher guys Ive ever met. In fact Zale and chicken in the same sentence looks odd.
Zale also served his country in WW2 taking away some of his good years .Thats not chicken behavior.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

zale did have a lot of heart and guts in the ring! he also believed there was no such thing as a "glass jaw, just glass heart".


but tony zale did avoid certain fighters pre WW II and post WW II.

[theone]

chase would have won a clear decision over hostak and appostoli and booker would have knocked both of them out.
burley and holman williams are wayyyyyyyy too much for hostak and apostoli.
in fact a peak tony zale would have been thrashed by williams and burley. he ducked them both. tony zale is a chicken, he ducked so many top black fighters

What exactley makes Holman, and Williams sooo much better than Holstak and Apostoli? Burley I could kinda see where you can make a statement like that, but why the other two?

That fact remains that because Holman and Williams never got a title shot or the recognition they deserved, its impossible for alot of people to judge them objectively.
The fact remains that along with thier wins over great competition, there were several times in thier prime that they lost to lesser fighters than Holstak and Aposotoli.
To belittle these top flight fighters and not give them any chance of beating Holman or Williams, especially without film footage of them to properly compare styles, just doesnt make sense.

n fact a peak tony zale would have been thrashed by Williams and Burley. he ducked them both. tony zale is a chicken, he ducked so many top black fighters

Burley would probably win, but thrash? Its hard to imagine any middleweight thrashing a prime Zale. I would take "The Man of Steel" over Williams.

[theone]

theone,
u horribly underate jack chase. chase was an excellent fighter, much better than apostoli and hostak
i would pick chase over tony zale too

And I believe you are horribly overating him. If you have all these guys beating Zale so easy, where would you rank him among the all time middleweights?