Do we really know how good BJS was?

[maverick23]

Am I losing the plot or is someone getting absolutely vilified for losing to Canelo?

Seems to be the case. Happened to Callum Smith too to a lesser extent.

Billy’s an excellent fighter at middle and very good fighter at super middle and being beat by, in most people’s opinions, the P4P number 1 doesn’t change that.

If you're seeing that as putting the boot in and vilifying the guy then either you didn't read what I was asking, or I really messed up how I was asking it.

Being beaten by the P4P number shows he's not not the P4P #1 but we never really found out how good he was as his overall competition simple wasn't close to world class. There's a few good wins in there, sure (mostly at Middleweight), but there's no A level win there. IF we base how good he is on his PERFORMANCES then I'm not sure we can really call him an excellent fighter. He was skilled, but never showed that against top competition. Something that DOES need to be held against a guy who was at world level for more than 5 years.

His route to a world title, which involved wins over Sullivan, Eubank and Ryder were really good wins at the time that have aged really well. His reigns as a world champion however were, well, less than stellar. Likewise his title win vs Andy Lee a good result (in a very close fight).

If an American champion had notched defenses against a 2020 Martin Murray, had struggled against Artur Akavov, and had beaten Isufi and Coceres we wouldn't be talking about him being an excellent fighter. None of these points have ANYTHING to do with losing to Canelo. In fact I think the bout with Canelo showed he SHOULD have been beating better competition through his career. That performance showed he could have hung with the best guys at 160 and 168 and didn't need to face the Murray's and Monroe's.

Can't help but feel he could, and should, have faced better competition so we knew how good he really was. There's a good chance he'd have done a number on Andrade, Hart and Charlo, but we never saw those bouts.

As for Callum Smith, again similar critcism is valid, it's not about him losing to a top fighter, it's about what he did prior to that loss. Smith winning the WBSS should have been a platform to huge fights instead he got N'Dam and a controversial win over Ryder. He SHOULD have done much more. He should have fought Saunders, or Jacobs, or any of the top fighters, not a washed N'Dam.

Again if an American fighter had beaten Soglund, Holzken, Groves, N;Dam and Ryder no one would be cheerleading them as anything other than a title holder in need of a big win (ala Andrade, Crawford at 147, Plant or Haney)

I wasn’t referring to your post mate but there have been several others on here and social media that are making out like BJS was always overrated and was British title level.

[cormack]

no becos he hasnt had many fights really ,especially considering he was world champ and so well renowned ...

[margaret thatcher]

he's was bit better than eubank jr and andy lee.....which is a totally respectable level and top 10 worldwide but certainly not elite

british, euro, world.....beat some recognizable names like lee, jr, and lemieux.....certainly a well accomplished but not special career. similar achievments as josh warrington although without such a bad loss

[a force]

I think we know. He’s a world level fighter but will always fall short against the elite as he doesn’t do 12 rounds well & he lacks a punch at that level.

He’s always razor sharp early on & then gets sloppier & sloppier later in the fight. Whilst on paper rounds 5, 6 & 7 were Saunders best rounds (I gave him 5 & 7) they were also the beginning of the end in that he was tiring & couldn’t use his legs as much so was throwing more to keep Canelo off him.

It’s a pattern that’s occurred in the Ryder & Eubank fights previously. The difference this time is that Canelo had fight changing power & Saunders found out he couldn’t grit it out against him like he could against Ryder & Eubank,

There’s no way he could ever beat Canelo or Golovkin at anything close to their primes. The pressure they put on him would always end up making him trade & they’d always get to him at some point.

[Twinkle Toes]

I think we know. He’s a world level fighter but will always fall short against the elite as he doesn’t do 12 rounds well & he lacks a punch at that level.

He’s always razor sharp early on & then gets sloppier & sloppier later in the fight. Whilst on paper rounds 5, 6 & 7 were Saunders best rounds (I gave him 5 & 7) they were also the beginning of the end in that he was tiring & couldn’t use his legs as much so was throwing more to keep Canelo off him.

It’s a pattern that’s occurred in the Ryder & Eubank fights previously. The difference this time is that Canelo had fight changing power & Saunders found out he couldn’t grit it out against him like he could against Ryder & Eubank,

There’s no way he could ever beat Canelo or Golovkin at anything close to their primes. The pressure they put on him would always end up making him trade & they’d always get to him at some point.

This is exactly how I see it.

[margaret thatcher]

I think we know. He’s a world level fighter but will always fall short against the elite as he doesn’t do 12 rounds well & he lacks a punch at that level.

He’s always razor sharp early on & then gets sloppier & sloppier later in the fight. Whilst on paper rounds 5, 6 & 7 were Saunders best rounds (I gave him 5 & 7) they were also the beginning of the end in that he was tiring & couldn’t use his legs as much so was throwing more to keep Canelo off him.

It’s a pattern that’s occurred in the Ryder & Eubank fights previously. The difference this time is that Canelo had fight changing power & Saunders found out he couldn’t grit it out against him like he could against Ryder & Eubank,

There’s no way he could ever beat Canelo or Golovkin at anything close to their primes. The pressure they put on him would always end up making him trade & they’d always get to him at some point.

[coneye]

Started has a kid , what was it 7-8 years old ,,, went on to become national champion , boxed for his country ,, , went on to win 2 world titles , Lucky he had promoters behind him to get him the shots at two of the weaker titles , but heh , he's not the first or the last to be in that position , they were there and he got them , so he was a 2 * world champ ,, , fought and gave the current num 1 in the world a good fight ,, made millions ,,From a boxing point of view i'd say Billy Joe Saunders done a great job and was very good .

Alas when you look at all the other antics , going back to 2008 , being suspended from the GB squad , right through to critizising DD and then doing the same ,,,, I think he'll be remembered for being a prick has oppossed to a really good boxer

Tell you something else , he shown the blueprint on how to beat Canelo ,, one thing i noticed in that fight ,, Billy did'nt have the power to hurt Canelo , yet on occasions when Billy went for him , Canelo was'nt has good moving back , Billy shown going backwards is Canelos Achilles heel

[Grilling Machine]

Being beaten by the P4P number shows he's not not the P4P #1 but we never really found out how good he was as his overall competition simple wasn't close to world class.

Because had he taken some of the fights he needed to prepare for Canelo properly he might've lost that massive payday. Money at the top level's ruined boxing, where today's typical career path is a promising start followed by a bunch of top-15 swerves, leapfrogging to the very best and then coming up short, sometimes at the cost of an entire career.

I think Canelo lost to Golovkin, officially to Mayweather, and some people also think Lara beat him. None of that changes MY opinion of him, but he'd be earning a lot less had GGG been given the nod. Likewise, I rate Mayweather as an excellent boxer, but don't consider his record especially impressive. With a couple of exceptions I think he dodged his best opponents until they were at least moderately past their primes, or dodged them altogether.

I rate Pacquiao more highly, for example, despite his much worse record on paper. Boxing fans (not us!) need to get with the UFC way of looking at fighters (and boxing used to be like this), where losses are part and parcel of every competitive career.

Saunders wasn't ready for Canelo because market forces got in his way, and Fastcar's pretty much the poster boy for that these days. In the UK, anyway. A lot of people aren't really that interested in AJ-Fury as far as their fight goes, but wanna see one of 'em mentally broken by it. Be that driven by racism or knocking down a peg or whatever. I just like great boxing, which is why I'm not particularly enthused by their fight.

[ironbeard]

Tell you something else , he shown the blueprint on how to beat Canelo ,, one thing i noticed in that fight ,, Billy did'nt have the power to hurt Canelo , yet on occasions when Billy went for him , Canelo was'nt has good moving back , Billy shown going backwards is Canelos Achilles heel

I think that you are correct, and Canelo knew it. BJS was actually muscling Canelo around a bit from 5-7. IMO, Canelo was becoming frustrated and uncomfortable; especially in round 7. I thought that Canelo was tiring a bit in real-time, and after viewing it again I think that he was massively relieved that he caught BJS with the telling blow. Hence, the showboating late 8, which is out of character for him.

[margaret thatcher]

i dont think bjs ever outmuscled canelo, but i do think that, barring some sort of physical freak with exceptional strength/stamina/workrate who can keep up a high pace without tiring or wearing down much, that movement is the way to go. that said, even with bjs on the move i thought canelo timed him pretty well and never really looked too bothered.

i think these days, it's not so much what you can do to beat canelo, as much it is what you can do to not lose as badly.

[margaret thatcher]

kovalev actually, despite being called shot and ppl saying he flopped, actually had a real case for being ahead in that fight (unlike bill)

might be a bit of a thing where size plays a role in canelo eventually coming up short, i look at the light heavys because i dont think anyone below that is beating this canelo

although a lot of ppl prob wouldnt take him seriously because of how he looked last fight (vs a guy 8 inches taller than canelo) id be interested in joe smith vs canelo. smiths a big lhw and though crude he's got a good chin and can keep up a work rate. id be interested in seeing how canelo reacts if smith just came at him throwing

bivol too i think could fiddble canelo around a bit and frustrate him, though not sure he commits enough to get a decision

bert is an interesting one, a lot of ppl picture him as being wild and getting lit up with counters, but he's boxed a lot more measured in his last few and has some serious strength. bert's a guy who hurt usyk and gave him a count all the way up at 201 in the olympics, beat michael hunter too

[DrDuke]

Saunders just always edged his fights. He makes minimal required effort to win. It's pretty popular nowadays. The Lemieux fight was an exception, but because Lemieux was just a stylistic gift for BJS. Billy is on the top contender level, but with the current disvalue of belts it was possible for him be a champion twice. He has never been the man in any division though. He has tried to get this recently, for the first time in his career, but he failed, although not without some competition, which again proves his credibility at the higher level.

[Ricky]

Just another runner, confined to the dust bin of history.

[Ricky]

Being beaten by the P4P number shows he's not not the P4P #1 but we never really found out how good he was as his overall competition simple wasn't close to world class.

Because had he taken some of the fights he needed to prepare for Canelo properly he might've lost that massive payday. Money at the top level's ruined boxing, where today's typical career path is a promising start followed by a bunch of top-15 swerves, leapfrogging to the very best and then coming up short, sometimes at the cost of an entire career.

I think Canelo lost to Golovkin, officially to Mayweather, and some people also think Lara beat him. None of that changes MY opinion of him, but he'd be earning a lot less had GGG been given the nod. Likewise, I rate Mayweather as an excellent boxer, but don't consider his record especially impressive. With a couple of exceptions I think he dodged his best opponents until they were at least moderately past their primes, or dodged them altogether.

I rate Pacquiao more highly, for example, despite his much worse record on paper. Boxing fans (not us!) need to get with the UFC way of looking at fighters (and boxing used to be like this), where losses are part and parcel of every competitive career.

Saunders wasn't ready for Canelo because market forces got in his way, and Fastcar's pretty much the poster boy for that these days. In the UK, anyway. A lot of people aren't really that interested in AJ-Fury as far as their fight goes, but wanna see one of 'em mentally broken by it. Be that driven by racism or knocking down a peg or whatever. I just like great boxing, which is why I'm not particularly enthused by their fight.

Good post, but Saunders only has himself to blame, not "market forces", he's had his eye on either Golovkin or Canelo for about 5 or 6 years now. I remember him edging a tune-up fight about 5 years ago and stating post fight he can forget Golovkin based on that showing. BJS has had 4 fights since Lemieux in 2017. That's pathetic. Canelo gets in with the best out there every few months.

[TopGun]

He's had one big fight at world level. His lack of power was always going to be a problem at the highest level so it was probably right to pick his battles carefully. All things considered he has earned remarkably well, is a terrific boxer and were it not for his out of ring persona would be able to retire happy. Because of the things he's said and the pressure that puts on you, given the way things ended on Saturday, I suspect he'll be disappointed with himself for the rest of his life and not be able to convince himself he didn't swallow it.

People will say he's got millions and will be happy. That's bollocks. As soon as you've got just enough money to be comfortable, any more makes little difference, it certainly wouldn't compensate for feeling like you've bottled it on your biggest night.

p.s. not saying he did swallow/bottle, just that I think that is what he will feel, rightly or wrongly (only he'll really know).

Yes nice post

[Twinkle Toes]

Just to add. If the fight with Andrade had come off, I think he would have lost that fight. Obviously we'll never know because of being a drug cheat. Which by the way was something else he was very vocal against, until he got caught,

I really don't see how folk think Saunders was coming on strong, his legs where going and he was having to stand in there and fight. It gave him a little more success on landing, but he was not going to beat Canelo at that game as the result of a broken face for Saunders proves.

[chiggsy]

World class no doubt got the titles/medals and the millions to prove it but not elite.

[Dan Dares]

Just to add. If the fight with Andrade had come off, I think he would have lost that fight. Obviously we'll never know because of being a drug cheat. Which by the way was something else he was very vocal against, until he got caught,

I really don't see how folk think Saunders was coming on strong, his legs where going and he was having to stand in there and fight. It gave him a little more success on landing, but he was not going to beat Canelo at that game as the result of a broken face for Saunders proves.

This. Coming on strong my arse. He was gassed. Canelo had his number throughout the fight. He won rounds 1 and 5 for me.

BJS is talented, but a wee bit delusional. No pop. Can't last 12 at the top level. He was lucky against Eubank, lucky against Akatov and lucky against Ryder.

If he comes back, I'd like to see him fight Smith, Ryder (again) and CEJ (again). For me, he loses all three.

[coghaugen11]

People saying he proved he belonged at that level fornicating hell haha, he proved he didn’t belong at that level

[JamesPhilips]

I always wonder whether BJS was really committed to boxing.

[ironbeard]

Just to add. If the fight with Andrade had come off, I think he would have lost that fight. Obviously we'll never know because of being a drug cheat. Which by the way was something else he was very vocal against, until he got caught,

I really don't see how folk think Saunders was coming on strong, his legs where going and he was having to stand in there and fight. It gave him a little more success on landing, but he was not going to beat Canelo at that game as the result of a broken face for Saunders proves.

This. Coming on strong my arse. He was gassed. Canelo had his number throughout the fight. He won rounds 1 and 5 for me.

BJS is talented, but a wee bit delusional. No pop. Can't last 12 at the top level. He was lucky against Eubank, lucky against Akatov and lucky against Ryder.

If he comes back, I'd like to see him fight Smith, Ryder (again) and CEJ (again). For me, he loses all three.

You gave Canelo 7? You must have lost interest by then.

[ironbeard]

i dont think bjs ever outmuscled canelo, but i do think that, barring some sort of physical freak with exceptional strength/stamina/workrate who can keep up a high pace without tiring or wearing down much, that movement is the way to go. that said, even with bjs on the move i thought canelo timed him pretty well and never really looked too bothered.

i think these days, it's not so much what you can do to beat canelo, as much it is what you can do to not lose as badly.

Agree to disagree. I think that if you watch it again you will see that BJS backed Canelo up to the ropes, physically, more than once. He literally got Canelo off his feet awkwardly in the middle of the ring once. This was all amidst Canelo uncharacteristically missing wildly and repeatedly.

A big, strong, SMW with an elite chin, excellent pop, and skills can defeat Canelo by making him work going backwards, pounding his body and grappling with him a la SOGgy.

A top LHW will take him down, IMO.

[margaret thatcher]

ya i've watched it and didnt see that at all, bill's not a physically strong fighter and he wasnt outmuscling canelo in there. i think that was the opposite of the approach he took

tbh i didnt notice much 'wild' missing from canelo either, wild missing is what lemieux did vs bjs

[ironbeard]

ya i've watched it and didnt see that at all, bill's not a physically strong fighter and he wasnt outmuscling canelo in there. i think that was the opposite of the approach he took

tbh i didnt notice much 'wild' missing from canelo either, wild missing is what lemieux did vs bjs

I am not looking for an argument. It clearly was happening from 5-7; not constantly, but intermittently and obviously.

The fact that BJS is “not a physically strong fighter” and was appearing to physically move Canelo around and make him miss a la LeMieux is specifically my point.

[coghaugen11]

Anyway this David Lemieux was hardly Jake LaMotta was he.