All time great light-heavyweights(post ur list)

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Jul 2006, 18:20

archie moore beat a prime harold johnson 4 times, give archie some credit!!!!!!

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 16 Jul 2006, 00:04

Archie Moore had a dozen or more years of pro experience when he fought a Harold Johnson who had only been fighting two years.

So Moore DID NOT fight a prime Harold Johnson there.

Moore fought a far from prime, very young Harold Johnson that year.

They had three fights that year:

The much less experienced Harold Johnson won one of the three, knocking Moore down in the course of the fight.

Later Moore escaped with his title by the very skin of his teeth in their title fight,

with LOTS of help from "referee" Ruby Goldstein.

Then Moore refused to fight Johnson (who WAS now the prime Harold Johnson) again.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 16 Jul 2006, 00:23

ive done a lot of studying on harold johnson

harold johnsons prime was 1950-54 age 22-26

archie beat harold 3 times during those years. so archie beat a prime harold johnson 3 times

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 16 Jul 2006, 00:31

harold johnson was now 33 and far past his prime by the time he won the light-h title over doug jones in 1962. of course a year later he lost the fix fight to willie pastrano in a fight johnson couldnt possibly unless he knocked pastrano out.

harold johnson was at his best when he was tangling with archie moore in the early 1950s. harold looked faster and better on film in the early-mid 1950s

- johnson took a long layoff after the mederos disaster and he came back in 1957, but he was not the same fighter he once was. he still went on to score some very impressive wins and win the world title at age 33. harold johnsons awesome success when he was past his prime shows u how great a fighter he was.

- had there been no archie moore, johnson would have dominated the 1950s light-h division and been champ the whole decade

Axe · Post by **Axe** » 17 Jul 2006, 01:53

To be honest, if youre going to include Roy Jones in the top 10 at 175, you have to include Dariusz Michalczewski as well, because Dariusz did a little more than Roy at 175.

Axe · Post by **Axe** » 18 Jul 2006, 19:16

Decagon wrote:
Axe wrote:To be honest, if youre going to include Roy Jones in the top 10 at 175, you have to include Dariusz Michalczewski as well, because Dariusz did a little more than Roy at 175.

Do you disagree? I think its a true statement.

Roy clearly has the better resume, but wins at 160 and 168 don't have a bearing on where a fighter is ranked at 175.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 18 Jul 2006, 21:34

Axe wrote:
Decagon wrote:
Axe wrote:To be honest, if youre going to include Roy Jones in the top 10 at 175, you have to include Dariusz Michalczewski as well, because Dariusz did a little more than Roy at 175.

Do you disagree? I think its a true statement.

Roy clearly has the better resume, but wins at 160 and 168 don't have a bearing on where a fighter is ranked at 175.

I disagree, even though I like DM.
P

tboy100 · Post by **tboy100** » 18 Jul 2006, 22:09

Sorry Axe gotta disagree on this one!
Here's the proof - Competition at Light Heavyweight alone.

Jones - Sosa, McCallum, Griffin, Hill, Del Valle, Grant, Frazier, Johnson, Telesco, Hall, Harding, Harman, Gonzalez, Kelly, Woods, Tarver, G Johnson.

Michalczewski - First top fighter he fought was Leeonzer Barber, then euro's Girad and Rocchigiani. Better comp then with Hill, Griffin, Hall, Harmon, Gonzalez, Tiozzo.

Some common opponents - *Hill. Jones - Big KO. Michalczewski - unanamous decision.
* Griffin. Jones - close scorecard DQ loss and a first rd stoppage win. Michalczewski - Was it a controversial stoppage? remember something going on, Michalczeski lost every round on the cards as well up to the fourth rd stoppage.
* Richard Hall. Jones - wins every round up to the tko. Michalczewski - Two tough one's for you my lad up to tko.
* Julio Gonzalez. Jones - Unanamous decision with knockdowns. Michalczeski - split decision loss.
* Derrick Harmon. Jones - beats a one loss Harmon in Tko11. Michalczewski - beats a three loss Harmon Ko9.

Out of this group with the exception of Hill, Jones was beating these guys before Michalczeski. Jones may have fought Frazier and Kelly, but look at some of Michalczewski's title defences, got to be around double digits
of people who wouldn't get a sniff of the ring top 10. F'ING SHOCKING!! I would of liked to see this fight, but you know it just wasn't gonna happen. Imagine if Michalszeski had past Marciano's magic mark, he would be a god in germany and a fraud in the real legend's of the boxing world. Are you listening to me sven ottke!!

That's my view anyway Axe.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 18 Jul 2006, 23:54

Decagon wrote:And let's not forget that Hill had a heel injury in the Michalczewski fight. Also, why would we ignore Jones's fights at 160 and 168 while ranking him at 175? Harry Greb, who rarely weighed over 165, is right at the cusp of my all-time top 5 at 175. At 160, Jones was a few pounds away from the light heavyweight limit.

I'm not saying that I agree with those idiotic statements about Michalczewski but when Greb was at 165 he was fighting lightheavyweights when Jones was at that weight he was fighting super middleweights

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 19 Jul 2006, 00:11

Jones entered the ring around the same weight.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 19 Jul 2006, 00:22

Decagon wrote:Riiiiiight, so are you saying that his 168-pound fights shouldn't count towards his ranking at light heavyweight because he was over the 175-pound limit?

What I am saying is that his lightheavyweight fights should count towards his lightheavyweight ranking.

Greb fought in a different era with different rules and different weight classes.

Axe · Post by **Axe** » 19 Jul 2006, 16:39

tboy100 wrote:Sorry Axe gotta disagree on this one!
Here's the proof - Competition at Light Heavyweight alone.

Jones - Sosa, McCallum, Griffin, Hill, Del Valle, Grant, Frazier, Johnson, Telesco, Hall, Harding, Harman, Gonzalez, Kelly, Woods, Tarver, G Johnson.

Michalczewski - First top fighter he fought was Leeonzer Barber, then euro's Girad and Rocchigiani. Better comp then with Hill, Griffin, Hall, Harmon, Gonzalez, Tiozzo.

Some common opponents - *Hill. Jones - Big KO. Michalczewski - unanamous decision.
* Griffin. Jones - close scorecard DQ loss and a first rd stoppage win. Michalczewski - Was it a controversial stoppage? remember something going on, Michalczeski lost every round on the cards as well up to the fourth rd stoppage.
* Richard Hall. Jones - wins every round up to the tko. Michalczewski - Two tough one's for you my lad up to tko.
* Julio Gonzalez. Jones - Unanamous decision with knockdowns. Michalczeski - split decision loss.
* Derrick Harmon. Jones - beats a one loss Harmon in Tko11. Michalczewski - beats a three loss Harmon Ko9.

Out of this group with the exception of Hill, Jones was beating these guys before Michalczeski. Jones may have fought Frazier and Kelly, but look at some of Michalczewski's title defences, got to be around double digits
of people who wouldn't get a sniff of the ring top 10. F'ING SHOCKING!! I would of liked to see this fight, but you know it just wasn't gonna happen. Imagine if Michalszeski had past Marciano's magic mark, he would be a god in germany and a fraud in the real legend's of the boxing world. Are you listening to me sven ottke!!

That's my view anyway Axe.

Good to hear from someone who is up for a good debate.

Firstly, all the fuss about Hill's heel injury is simply bogus excuses...the fight was moved a month back because of it at Hill's request, so his heel was 100% and it threw DM's training camp off more than anything. Now let's analyze some of these fighters:

Jones - Sosa, McCallum, Griffin, Hill, Del Valle, Grant, Frazier, Johnson, Telesco, Hall, Harding, Harman, Gonzalez, Kelly, Woods, Tarver, G Johnson.

Michalczewski - First top fighter he fought was Leeonzer Barber, then euro's Girad and Rocchigiani. Better comp then with Hill, Griffin, Hall, Harmon, Gonzalez, Tiozzo.

First off, you immediately downplay Leeonzer Barber, who was a very good fighter...but Ill get to that in a bit.

Secondly, I don't have the time to get into all the Grant's and Kelly's, but we'll compare some of the bigger names you listed:

Virgil Hill: at 33 Hill still looked very good, in fact he logged his biggest career win right before fighting DM, a decision over IBF champ Henry Maske in Germany. Given the fact that Hill, nearly 10 years later, is still a top 6-7 cruiserweight and holds a piece of the 200 lb title, and repeated as champ in 1999, we now know that he had incredible longevity as a fighter and that at 33 he was therefore still in his prime against DM.

Jones beat Hill at 34 and the age wasnt that big a difference, and Jones did finish Hill in spectacular fashion, unlike DM. But the quality of fighter was significantly worse. Hill was coming directly off the loss to DM, as well as a year long layoff. Not only that, but Jones forced Hill to severely drain himself the day of the fight. (http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxingch ... s_rjj.html).

So Dm has a major edge here.

Montell Griffin: Jones loses one by DQ, he was turning the tide but the fact is he lost control of himself and fouled out, and at the time he was being outlanded and was landing at a lower % than Montell. The rematch was awesome, Jones' career best KO, but they ended off at 1-1 officially.

DM beat Griffin without any real controversy, the referee in that fight was Joe Cortez and he stopped it after DM landed fourteen unanswered shots when Griffin was stumbling around like he was drunk. Griffin had won the first 3 rounds, but DM won round 4, and DM was always a slow starter so that was nothing new at all. Griffin was 29 at the time, but DM was 31 and had taken more punishment than Griffin throughout his career...nevertheless both were still in their primes imo.

So again you would have to give DM the edge.

Hall, Harmon, and Gonzalez:

Roy has the edge here, but these fighters were a step down from the others listed, and it must be noted that Jones was still considered in his prime when he fought them, and DM was considerably past it, especially against Gonzalez.

Id say the first DM-Hall fight was a legit doctor's stoppage, as Hall's eye was completely closed, but the second one was controversial. Hall was a WBA interim champ and really strong, so a faded DM had trouble taking him out head-on (which made for the very entertaining 2 fights they had). A faded DM also beat Harmon with a broken thumb. But Jones absolutely dominated both of these guys, and so definitely has the edge here...as I said though, it doesnt really mean much.

Now Gonzalez was always a limited fighter. Jones basically beat him by 15 points. A prime DM wouldve beat Gonzo with ease, somethink like 10 rounds to 2; but he didnt have the talent or skill to box Julio's ears off from the outside, like Jones did, at any point in time...he would have always had to do it the hard way, toe to toe.

Still, the fact that Jones was in his prime and DM was shot when each fought Julio makes the comparison an invalid one.

Other notable wins:

Jones: Del Valle, McCallum, Johnson, Harding.

Well McCallum was 40 years old, so that win didn't mean a whole lot. And Harding was only a 19 fight novice, despite being rather skilled, so again that wasnt overly impressive, although I consider it a decent win...even though Eric gave Roy a very hard time.

Del Valle was a good win, despite having lost to Hill in a close tilt. Lou was coming off a layoff as well, however. R Johnson was s good win to, he had a rather nice streak of IBF defences going, but it should be noted that at that stage of his career Johnson was starting to slip, and as a natural middleweight, Roy (who has tested positive for being on the juice before) had a considerable size advantage there. (PS Im just having fun with some of the Roy fans with the juice comment).

DM: Barber, Rochigianni (x2), Girard (x2)

Now we get to Leeonzer Barber. He was a top 5 guy at the time and (unlike what you wrote) is certainly better than Harmon, Hall, and perhaps even the limited Gonzalez. Barber was literally the biggest 175 lber I have ever seen, built like a tank and standing at 6'3" he had all the physical advantages over DM (Im not exagerrating either, Barber makes Tarver look like a toothpick). He had an eleven week training camp with Manny Steward to get ready for DM and was an original Kronk gym fighter to boot.

DM beat him early on in DM's career, so that should definitely count for something.

Girard wasn't exactly a power puncher, but he had a good amateur career and was a well schooled boxer. He had beaten fellow euro contenders Michel, Obertan, and Akim Tafer--the amateur French heavyweight champ, more experienced than Girard at the time--who went on to be a successful EBU cruiserweight champ. 2 wins over Girard wasnt bad at all.

Rochigianni I think is also a class above most of Jones' opponents, he was a solid champ at 168 and at 175 he beat the mandatory that Jones never faced in Michael Nunn, and was (in the eyes of many) robbed in one of his fights with Maske.

So overall I give DM the edge at 175. I may be a little biased, but that's my honest opinion and Ive given my reasons for it.

Axe · Post by **Axe** » 19 Jul 2006, 16:43

By the way I omitted Tarver becuase if you count Roy's win against Tarver you have to count both his losses as well (as if anything he was in better shape in the rematch and looked healthier than in fight 1), which wouldnt do Roy any favours.

Axe · Post by **Axe** » 19 Jul 2006, 17:43

Decagon wrote:But it's hard to compare Jones to other all-time greats if you ignore what he did at 168, a division few elite fighters have graced. Sure, calling him #1 of all time at 168 is nice, but who cares? I want to be able to compare Roy Jones to fighters like Billy Conn, Harry Greb, Ezzard Charles, and Lloyd Marshall. Like Jones, a lot of those fighters fought between 160 and 168, and like Jones, those fighters often took on bigger opponents. Look at Jones's fight with Virgil Hill. Hill had a good 10 or 15 pounds on Jones in that fight. Fuck all of that weigh-in bullshit; Hill was in the 190s come fight time.

Hill was royally screwed during the weigh-in, that much is fact. He was drained for the fight almost as badly as Toney was.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 19 Jul 2006, 21:57

As said, I clearly rank RJJ higher at 175 than DM, even though I like DM, and calling DM "talentless" is simply dumb. But RJJ seemed totally unbeatable at 175 for many years. Competent fighters like Clinton Woods good high praise if they survived 6 rounds. DM never enjoyed a similar status.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 19 Jul 2006, 22:29

Jones was the better fighter and probably would have beat DM. However, DM was the next best lightheavyweight for several years and Jones never fought him. HBO should have been screaming for this fight, but Jones was their boy and they barely ever even mentioned DM.
Time will tell, but it's likely that not fighting DM will hurt Jones' legacy.

tboy100 · Post by **tboy100** » 19 Jul 2006, 22:31

Nice one Axe, good to see that you've got some good points concerning your opinion on this topic, especially without having to make a silly remark about my opinion.

Better guy than that by the looks of things.

Concerning Leeonzer Barber i didn't mean to give you the impression that i was downplaying him. I know Barber was a quality fighter WBO champ, strong guy and establishing himself and then Michalczewski beat him. What i meant was going back to top euro level fighters such as Girad after a quality win over Barber. He then stepped back up in comp with more established fighters Hill and Griffin, i don't want you to think i'm that high on Harmon or Hall, Barber and Rocchigiani are better fighters, i just mentioned them after as they were common opponents who were both well known in the division. Rocchigiani i thought was a good tough fighter world champion but nothing extraordinary by any means. He had some tough fights with Michalczewski but didn't look anything special against Eubank, the Nunn fight at light heavy, although he still had an impressive record Nunn wasn't the fighter from his middleweight days.

So with the Hill and Griffin fights for RJ and DM, one beat one guy before the other and vice versa. So both cases could be argued for the opponent having had something taken out of them previously. The only thing with Michalczeski's title reign was that a lot of his fights seemed to regress in opponents quality. He ruled the euro's and beat some opponent/fringe contender typ'es a bit to much for me. Although Roy Jones was always expected to win, most of the comp he fought at LH was well known at world level.

Michalczeski was obviously the big fight for Roy Jones at LH. It didn't happen but i'd have gone for RJ to outbox DM, maybe more, who knows? I just think on the hole RJ beat more established fighters at LH, and the way they did it? DM he did good for sure, RJ he was like Gucking electric!!

Axe · Post by **Axe** » 20 Jul 2006, 01:36

tboy100 wrote:Nice one Axe, good to see that you've got some good points concerning your opinion on this topic, especially without having to make a silly remark about my opinion. Better guy than that by the looks of things.

Concerning Leeonzer Barber i didn't mean to give you the impression that i was downplaying him. I know Barber was a quality fighter WBO champ, strong guy and establishing himself and then Michalczewski beat him. What i meant was going back to top euro level fighters such as Girad after a quality win over Barber. He then stepped back up in comp with more established fighters Hill and Griffin, i don't want you to think i'm that high on Harmon or Hall, Barber and Rocchigiani are better fighters, i just mentioned them after as they were common opponents who were both well known in the division. Rocchigiani i thought was a good tough fighter world champion but nothing extraordinary by any means. He had some tough fights with Michalczewski but didn't look anything special against Eubank, the Nunn fight at light heavy, although he still had an impressive record Nunn wasn't the fighter from his middleweight days.

So with the Hill and Griffin fights for RJ and DM, one beat one guy before the other and vice versa. So both cases could be argued for the opponent having had something taken out of them previously. The only thing with Michalczeski's title reign was that a lot of his fights seemed to regress in opponents quality. He ruled the euro's and beat some opponent/fringe contender typ'es a bit to much for me. Although Roy Jones was always expected to win, most of the comp he fought at LH was well known at world level.

Michalczeski was obviously the big fight for Roy Jones at LH. It didn't happen but i'd have gone for RJ to outbox DM, maybe more, who knows? I just think on the hole RJ beat more established fighters at LH, and the way they did it? DM he did good for sure, RJ he was like Gucking electric!!

Fair play tboy100, thanks for clarifying that.

DM did beat too many second rate fringe contenders, that much is fact. But whenever he did step up he produced good results (in his prime, anyway).

I don't think you can say that the manner by which Jones beat his comp elevates him above DM, I believe these things should be solved solely on the basis of achievement (meaning resume), which at 175 is debatable, any way you slice it. Of course, DM was at the weight for far longer, so should have done more if he was truly in Roy's class, in a P4P sense.

One final point I would like to make, about Nunn; he may have been on the slide, but he had more than enough left in him to KO William Guthrie, who was R Johnson's claim to fame at 175 (R Johnson being one of Roy's best fights at the weight of course).

But we'll have to agree to disagree.