Why there is no film of Zale vs Graziano 1 and 2

[Marchegiano1952]

Wondering why was never filmed 2 of the best action fights of all time Zale vs Graziano 1 and 2

[Caractacus]

Sugar Ray Robinson briefly mentions the films of Zale vrs Graziano in his 1970 autobiography.
I think he said that they should be put in a vault or something like that.

[goose 5]

The first bout was actually televised.

[Ambling Alp II]

I remember see highlights back in the 1970s/early 1980s. They were pretty wild fights.

[goose 5]

You saw highlights of the first bout ?

[Ambling Alp II]

I'm pretty sure. It was probably over 40 years ago. There was this boxing series where they would discuss famous boxers from a given weight class. I remember Floyd Patterson was the expert when they did the middleweights. (Maybe he did other weights as well) They showed highlights of Zale-Graziano, and I am almost positive this included the first one. Graziano had Zale in big trouble but couldn't put him away. In the second fight, it was the other way around.
They even had clips of Stanley Ketchel-Billy Papke, and of course Robinson and Monzon and others.

[hhaehre]

The first bout was actually televised.

It wasn't, no professional film is in existence of the first two fights. There's some rough spectator filmed footage of the second fight, but that's it.

[goose 5]

That's what I thought.

[klompton]

The first bout was actually televised.

It wasn't, no professional film is in existence of the first two fights. There's some rough spectator filmed footage of the second fight, but that's it.

The first fight was indeed broadcast on television via NBC. Relatively few kinescopes (the method of preserving television broadcasts back then) exist from the 1940s and none from boxing this early.

[hhaehre]

The first bout was actually televised.

It wasn't, no professional film is in existence of the first two fights. There's some rough spectator filmed footage of the second fight, but that's it.

The first fight was indeed broadcast on television via NBC. Relatively few kinescopes (the method of preserving television broadcasts back then) exist from the 1940s and none from boxing this early.

Wow, you're correct. I just read in the book "Sports on television" that it was, too bad no film of it exists today. I remember having read somewhere that it wasn't filmed because of some contractual issue, but maybe that was the second fight?

[funso banjo baby]

We need to perfect backwards time travel NOW !
Even though all scientists agree it's impossible , this s**t is too important

I'd also like to see the final seconds of Johnson v Burns cos I'm a ghoul

[Caractacus]

part of the Joe Louis vrs Billy Conn II that aired live on NBC -TV
was shown (briefly) from a kinescope in a 10 year anniversary show of NBC-TV from the 1950's.
I saw it on youtube about 10 years ago.
it was taken from a different angle up at ring-side looking up.
and also the image was reveresed where they both looked like southpaws.
I told somebody to save it but they didn't listen.

[Caractacus]

I found it again ,
part of the kinescope of the 1946 NBC-TV live transmission of the Joe Louis vrs Billy Conn re-match.
check it out at approx. 0:43 of this clip

[goose 5]

odd that Louis and Conn were boxing out of the southpaw stance-was that some kind of distortion or did they actually switch stances ?

[Caractacus]

nah, it must have been from the negative of the kinescope or something.

[Caractacus]

Sugar Ray Robinson briefly mentions the films of Zale vrs Graziano in his 1970 autobiography.
I think he said that they should be put in a vault or something like that.

here is the exact quote from Sugar Ray Robinson and Dave Anderson's 1970
autobiography SUGAR RAY/ The Viking Press.
(talking about his fight with Graziano in April 1952)
page 214
"His three fights with Tony Zale for the Middleweight title had been classics.
The films should be put in a time capsule"

[goose 5]

Man, that quote opens some can of worms-unless Ray was just making an assumption.

[Woller]

Older fight films laterally reversed are not unusual.
I have Ingemar Johansson v Dick Richardson as southpaws.

[hhaehre]

Older fight films laterally reversed are not unusual.
I have Ingemar Johansson v Dick Richardson as southpaws.

Yeah, I've seen Marciano knock Walcott out with an awesome left hook.

[Caractacus]

Man, that quote opens some can of worms-unless Ray was just making an assumption.

i don't think that Sugar ray Robinson had ever studied fight films of his opponents tho.
But I wonder if he had been ring-side at all three of those fights ?

[Caractacus]

although I did read later in the same book (page 336)
Where he writes that just before the first Liston fight in February 1964,
Muhammad Ali (then Cassius Clay) had called him up and asked how he should fight Liston.
Robinson told him like a Matador, just like he had fought Jake La Motta
and he told him that he was going to bring him down the fight film of it to study.
So obviously Sugar Ray Robinson did have a collection of Boxing films then.
But they may have just been of him fighting (?)

[goose 5]

What I can't understand is why no films of Robinson's long awaited welterweight title shot in 1946 were taken by someone ? If not the promoter then why not by Robinson's manager.

[Caractacus]

I dunno but did you know in one of Sugar Ray Robinson's early pro fights
he trained at Pompton Lakes NJ with Joe Louis and fought on the undercard
of Joe Louis vrs Red Burman ?

[goose 5]

Yes, I've read his book. It very interesting to consider that Holman Williams was often in Louis' camps as well-maybe Robinson and Williams sparred ?

[Caractacus]

Henry Armstrong used Archie Moore as a sparring partner when he was in St. Louis
and Moore fought on the same card too.
so wouldn't be surprised.