Should David Haye move to heavyweight NOW?

Lightsoot · Post by **Lightsoot** » 17 Jul 2006, 08:50

I think he should. Though Haye has recently been elevated to the WBC's mandatory challenger position I envisage O'Neill Bell routing him with something to spare.

Bell can be floored but he dusts himself down and gets straight back into it, displaying excellent stamina whilst carrying his power late - rare qualities which Haye seemingly lacks.

How much would Haye's stock diminish if he was wiped out by Bell?

After seeing Williams and Skelton meander through 12 rounds the other week Haye must fancy his chances of making his mark at heavyweight domestically.

And if matched carefully, which is possible in the dire heavyweight division, he might find himself sitting on a future pot of gold. He'll certainly be able to command far bigger purses than what he'd ever get for being hammered by Bell.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 17 Jul 2006, 08:56

Well if the rumour mill is correct, there is a possibility that Bell will have a tough time on his hands in his next fight.... Big talk that Chris Byrd is going to have a crack at it. Although, I've also read that he is part of the Heavyweight tournament.

In an ideal world I think Haye should wait a year or two so he just develops that more man strength.

However, its not an ideal world - As you point out, the cruiserweight devision both domestically and globally is alot better than the heavyweights.

If he got sparked by Bell then it will tarnish his reputation again - but I'm sure with his looks, youth and the old weight drained excuse he could comeback again. Who would have thought he'd be #1 contender (without much complaint) so soon after the Thompson loss.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 17 Jul 2006, 09:00

Personaly I'd go for the Bell fight if it's on offer: it's a chance at the big time and one he could possibly win with some big hitting early on. Yes there's a good chance Bell can come back and win, but DH might just get to him too hard and too often for a mid rounds come back.

Plus it's a seriously good fight for the fans.

Then if he gets clobbered he can say "cruiser was killing me, I had no stamina and was weak as a kitten. My future lies at heavyweight for sure, and I'm now looking for a shot at the undisputed champ, Kev McBride"

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Jul 2006, 09:35

I would definetly wait, a loss to Bell is no massive disaster, and then as said, he can move on up.

Even though we all talk about how dire the domestic heavyweight scene is, if Williams landed a shot on Haye, it would be lights out time, sure, he may not land one, but the difference in physical strength and power is massive.

Haye to me, is not built for heavyweight, same as Byrd. Byrd got away with it because he had incredible reflexes for a guy his size, and very good defensive skills, AND A VERY GOOD BEARD. Byrd has taken the shots of some of the biggest men in the division, and aside from late on against Wlad, a genuinely big hard hitting heavy, and Ibeabuchi, a super aggressive power puncher, has acquitted himself very well against far bigger stronger men.

Byrd said that by the weigh in he usually weighs 205 or thereabouts, and that at the weigh in he was usually full of liquids to bulk his weight.

Byrd although shorter, is if anything thicker set than Haye, who doesn't look to have the depth of chest, neck muscles or tree trunk legs of a genuien heavyweight. A tale of the tape would be quite revealing.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 17 Jul 2006, 11:00

it's the win over Gurov that got him such a high ranking, IMO. the WBC probably had a look on the internet & only just realised that haye beat gurov, who was a borderline top 10 fighter!

Chambers2 · Post by **Chambers2** » 17 Jul 2006, 11:02

I think Haye should be trying to get Bell in the ring asap, then irrespective of the result he should move upto HW. All this boiling down he has to do for each fight can't be good for him, the money is also alot better at HW and I think he'll acquit himself quite well in the top division, I wouldn't be in the slightest bit surprised if he picks up a major title

His speed will give alot of the lumbering HW's dickie-fits and I think his power will still be a force to be reckoned with at the higher weight, although his punch resistance may come into question more.

Did anybody read the small article about David Haye in one of the tabloids on Saturday (I think), he was basically saying that he'd love to fight Valuev and that he strongly fancies his chances against, due to the massive difference in speed.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Jul 2006, 11:18

I think Haye's best shots would probably just bounce harmlessly off of Valuev's vast frame. He seems to be improving too with the guidance of Uli Wegner (isn't that who is training him). Although he struggles with orthodox movers and shakers, I don't see Haye in that mold.

If Haye fancies his chances, fair enough, but by god, that's a big lad he'd be taking on, and given that a former 168 lber was able to drop him, you'd have to say it's a tall order.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 17 Jul 2006, 12:58

I really don't think Haye has the chin to win a world title at Heavyweight.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 17 Jul 2006, 13:37

nickd wrote:I really don't think Haye has the chin to win a world title at Heavyweight.

He might not at cruiser.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 17 Jul 2006, 13:53

Haye was knocked out cold in the amateurs and floored by Mock, that does not bode well for taking Heavyweight shots.

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 17 Jul 2006, 14:16

Haye will be a poor man's Shannon Briggs at Heavy....no chance for him there.

Hayefever · Post by **Hayefever** » 17 Jul 2006, 14:39

nickd wrote:Haye was knocked out cold in the amateurs and floored by Mock, that does not bode well for taking Heavyweight shots.

Just a question nickd (As a big Haye Fan!), what amateur fight do you refure to when you say "haye was knocked cold"? To my best knoledge haye was only stopped in the amateurs by Jim Twite (1998) and Cuba's Fonte Solis.(2001)

I watched Twite fight a few days ago and Haye was on his feet at 8, he was in better shape then after the mock knock down. (shacky legs-wise)

And Solis didnt even drop haye.

So my question is, which fight was he knocked cold?

Not trying to be clever, i just keep hearing haye was sparked, stretched out and knocked cold for 5 mins in the amateurs etc. but people never say who by.

Hayefever · Post by **Hayefever** » 17 Jul 2006, 14:47

Just contacted Adam Booth (haye's coach also from the amateurs) he told me, haye had nearly 100 amateur fights, over half of them were England international aganst russians, americans, cubans etc. and alot of those at heavyweight. And was dropped once.

Haye being dropped only once in all those fights, in my opinion isn't that bad.

But remember thats with a head gear etc.

But head gear didn't stop david Tue getting knocked out my savon in 10 seconds!

Just food for thought and a few facts.

fried bread · Post by **fried bread** » 17 Jul 2006, 15:07

Haye should stay at cruiser, that way he can keep knocking opponents out. Actually, there might be a lot of cruisers that he'd fail to finish off. There are some tough nuts at cruiserweight. If the best fighters would keep active I think it would piss on any other era. Remember when JC Gomez, Nelson, Tiozzo & Jirov never actually fought each other? Nowadays we get Mormeck beating Braithwaite, Bell beating Mormeck, some really good fights and quality fighters.

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 17 Jul 2006, 15:23

Hayefever wrote:Just contacted Adam Booth (haye's coach also from the amateurs) he told me, haye had nearly 100 amateur fights, over half of them were England international aganst russians, americans, cubans etc. and alot of those at heavyweight. And was dropped once.

Haye being dropped only once in all those fights, in my opinion isn't that bad.

But remember thats with a head gear etc.

But head gear didn't stop david Tue getting knocked out my savon in 10 seconds!

Just food for thought and a few facts.

Haye wouldn't be able to rely on his power as much at Heavy and he doesn't do the road work to be able to accumulate damage that would lead to a KO, or have the gas to win a decision.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Jul 2006, 15:42

Hayefever wrote:Just contacted Adam Booth (haye's coach also from the amateurs) he told me, haye had nearly 100 amateur fights, over half of them were England international aganst russians, americans, cubans etc. and alot of those at heavyweight. And was dropped once.

Haye being dropped only once in all those fights, in my opinion isn't that bad.

But remember thats with a head gear etc.

But head gear didn't stop david Tue getting knocked out my savon in 10 seconds!

Just food for thought and a few facts.

Head gear doesn't prevent ko's, it's to stop facial damage, in fact, because it obscures vision, it can contribute to ko's.

Post by **The Law** » 17 Jul 2006, 18:38

Mattyp151 wrote:
Hayefever wrote:Just contacted Adam Booth (haye's coach also from the amateurs) he told me, haye had nearly 100 amateur fights, over half of them were England international aganst russians, americans, cubans etc. and alot of those at heavyweight. And was dropped once.

Haye being dropped only once in all those fights, in my opinion isn't that bad.

But remember thats with a head gear etc.

But head gear didn't stop david Tue getting knocked out my savon in 10 seconds!

Just food for thought and a few facts.

Haye wouldn't be able to rely on his power as much at Heavy and he doesn't do the road work to be able to accumulate damage that would lead to a KO, or have the gas to win a decision.

Matty, I think you are slightly under-rating David Haye's power.

To be honest Haye's power would knock over most heavyweights if he lands flush. He carries one of the most brutal punches I've seen in a long time.

Whether he will win a world title is another matter, his stamina needs a lot of work!

Chambers2 · Post by **Chambers2** » 18 Jul 2006, 04:27

I think Hayes power will still be a force at HW as well, especially when he's going to be carrying another 30-40lbs at fight time

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Jul 2006, 05:17

And you think adding 30-40 lbs is going to make him hit harder? Danny Williams' power hasn't improved by adding weight.

Haye's advantage over the other heavyweights is going to be speed, not power, if he adds 30-40 lbs, he is going to have poor stamina due to the extra muscle tissue, and will be much slower around the ring.

If he is going to fight at heavyweight, he would surely be better off coming in around 215-220, where he would be mobile. when you bear in mind that this was Ali's prime fighting weight, and Ali was 6' 4 and a naturally bigger man, I think it shows how much extra weight modern heavyweights are stacking onto their frames with weight training.

Chambers2 · Post by **Chambers2** » 18 Jul 2006, 06:56

Haye walks round at 16 and a half stone (230lbs) between fights, I'd expect him to be fighting at approximately that weight, he's definately going to want to bulk up abit for the heavies. He doesn't look to have any excess fat on him when hes at 16 stone either

I would expect Haye at 230lbs to hit harder than Haye at 200lbs.

Who knows if Danny Williams's punch power has increased/decreased with his extra weight, personally I would have expected it to have increased (it was obviously counter-productive though as it effected numerous othere areas of his game).

Haye will obviously lose some of his speed and stamina, but he'll increase his power and durability IMO. His speed will still be phenomenal for the HW division and the current crop of HW's are hardly known for their workrate (with a few exceptions)

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 18 Jul 2006, 07:01

How could he lose stamina? He doesn't have much at Cruiser! ;)

And as for him being sparked out in the amateurs I am only going by what I have read on various forums may not be true. Although could have been in sparring. But his chin is hardly concrete, Lolenga Mock is a bloody Supermiddleweight!

Chambers2 · Post by **Chambers2** » 18 Jul 2006, 07:18

nickd wrote:How could he lose stamina? He doesn't have much at Cruiser! ;)

Other than the loss against Thompson when he fought like a nob and tried to bomb him out in the first few rounds, he hasn't had an issue with his stamina. He's supposed to be alot more into his roadwork since he relocated his training to Miami

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 18 Jul 2006, 07:20

I saw the Jim Thwite fight and cant remember if Haye got up or not, but I do remember him being floored heavily and on his back.

thats not to say that times dont change though and that Haye hasnt matured - just my recollections of his amateur KO loss.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 18 Jul 2006, 07:28

Chambers2 wrote:Haye walks round at 16 and a half stone (230lbs) between fights, I'd expect him to be fighting at approximately that weight, he's definately going to want to bulk up abit for the heavies. He doesn't look to have any excess fat on him when hes at 16 stone either

I would expect Haye at 230lbs to hit harder than Haye at 200lbs.

Who knows if Danny Williams's punch power has increased/decreased with his extra weight, personally I would have expected it to have increased (it was obviously counter-productive though as it effected numerous othere areas of his game).

Haye will obviously lose some of his speed and stamina, but he'll increase his power and durability IMO. His speed will still be phenomenal for the HW division and the current crop of HW's are hardly known for their workrate (with a few exceptions)

Adding extra weight doesn't increase punch power unless a fighter is moving up to a weight they suit more naturally and have been killing themselves to make weight.

Haye may walk around at 230, but that doesn't mean he should fight at that weight, tyson probably walked around at 240-250, but his best fighting weight was 215 and he hit hardest when he was young, light and fast.

Strength will increase with added muscle tissue, but Haye's punch power comes from speed, although the extra weight and strength would be of help in clinches.

I've stood next to Haye a few times, and he just doesn't look like a heavyweight, and how he can be 230 between fights is beyond me.

Maybe I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time, but I think this is more a case of Haye wanting to move up, than having to.

Chambers2 · Post by **Chambers2** » 18 Jul 2006, 07:41

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Chambers2 wrote:Haye walks round at 16 and a half stone (230lbs) between fights, I'd expect him to be fighting at approximately that weight, he's definately going to want to bulk up abit for the heavies. He doesn't look to have any excess fat on him when hes at 16 stone either

I would expect Haye at 230lbs to hit harder than Haye at 200lbs.

Who knows if Danny Williams's punch power has increased/decreased with his extra weight, personally I would have expected it to have increased (it was obviously counter-productive though as it effected numerous othere areas of his game).

Haye will obviously lose some of his speed and stamina, but he'll increase his power and durability IMO. His speed will still be phenomenal for the HW division and the current crop of HW's are hardly known for their workrate (with a few exceptions)
Adding extra weight doesn't increase punch power unless a fighter is moving up to a weight they suit more naturally and have been killing themselves to make weight.

Haye may walk around at 230, but that doesn't mean he should fight at that weight, tyson probably walked around at 240-250, but his best fighting weight was 215 and he hit hardest when he was young, light and fast.

Strength will increase with added muscle tissue, but Haye's punch power comes from speed, although the extra weight and strength would be of help in clinches.

I've stood next to Haye a few times, and he just doesn't look like a heavyweight, and how he can be 230 between fights is beyond me.

Maybe I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time, but I think this is more a case of Haye wanting to move up, than having to.

I think Hayes natural weight now is as a small HW, he has to kill himself to make the Cruiserweight limit which is the main reason why he is so eager to move up.

I agree that speed is a BIG part of punch power, but so is size IMO as long as it's put on in the correct places.