At Light Heavyweight: Jimmy Ellis VS. Willie Pastrano.

[Scypion]

Prime for prime, who would win? I believe that Ellis could have fought at light heavyweight if he wanted to, and of course, Pastrano was Light Heavyweight Champion.

[Woldemar]

Pastrano by decision.

[scorpio83]

Pastrano at his light heavyweight best would out-box and out-punch Ellis behind his quick jabs and combinations to take a decision in a close fight.

[Scypion]

At light heavyweight, Jimmy Ellis would have fought smaller fighters than he did at heavyweight. His trouble at heavyweight was fighting guys like Frazier, Ali, and Shavers, and also bigger guys like Ron Lyle.

Jimmy may have lost some of his power at light heavy, but I still think he would have been a force. The difference between him and guys like Pastrano and Foster is that he was successful as a heavyweight whereas Willie and Bob had to move down to light heavy to be successful. I believe Jimmy Ellis could have been an undisputed champion at 175 lbs.

[goose 5]

Pastrano- not too close of a decision. Maybe 10-5.

[Scypion]

Both Pastrano and Ellis had good chins. Willie was only stopped twice in his pro career and Ellis 4 times, but Jimmy's stoppages were by 3 men, Muhammad Ali, Ernie Shavers, and Joe Frazier (twice). No excuses needed there. Ellis lost 7 times as a heavyweight, all to fighters bigger than him. Jimmy Ellis lost 5 times to fighters when he fought in the middleweight division. Those losses were to Rubin "Hurricane" Carter, Holly Mims, Henry Hank, Don Fullmer, and George Benton.

Ellis started out his pro career at the age of 21 and soon was put in with tough veteran middleweights (Carter, Mims, Hanks, etc.). Floyd Patterson ( a smaller man than Ellis) turned pro at 17 and fought in the light heavyweight division. I believe that Jimmy should have started out as a light heavyweight as well as opposed to middleweight, and he should have been brought along slower instead of fighting contenders almost right off the bat.

Willie Pastrano lost to boxers like Greg Peralta, Chic Calderwood, Alonzo Johnson, Brian London, Roy Harris, Italo Scortichini, Johnny Cesario, and Alvin Pellegrini, and he drew with Lennart Risberg, Willie Troy, and an Archie Moore who must have been 50 when they fought in 1962.

After fighting over 3 years as a middleweight, I doubt that Jimmy Ellis would have had any problem making and continuing to make weight in the 175 lb. division. I don't believe that he would have lost that much power as a light heavyweight and he may have been a little faster than he was as a heavyweight.

I believe that Jimmy Ellis would have been a great light heavyweight.

[Scypion]

Both Pastrano and Ellis had good chins. Willie was only stopped twice in his pro career and Ellis 4 times, but Jimmy's stoppages were by 3 men, Muhammad Ali, Ernie Shavers, and Joe Frazier (twice). No excuses needed there. Ellis lost 7 times as a heavyweight, all to fighters bigger than him. Jimmy Ellis lost 5 times to fighters when he fought in the middleweight division. Those losses were to Rubin "Hurricane" Carter, Holly Mims, Henry Hank, Don Fullmer, and George Benton.

Ellis started out his pro career at the age of 21 and soon was put in with tough veteran middleweights (Carter, Mims, Hanks, etc.). Floyd Patterson ( a smaller man than Ellis) turned pro at 17 and fought in the light heavyweight division. I believe that Jimmy should have started out as a light heavyweight as well as opposed to middleweight, and he should have been brought along slower instead of fighting contenders almost right off the bat.

Willie Pastrano lost to boxers like Greg Peralta, Chic Calderwood, Alonzo Johnson, Brian London, Roy Harris, Italo Scortichini, Johnny Cesario, and Alvin Pellegrini, and he drew with Lennart Risberg, Willie Troy, and an Archie Moore who must have been 50 when they fought in 1962.

After fighting over 3 years as a middleweight, I doubt that Jimmy Ellis would have had any problem making and continuing to make weight in the 175 lb. division. I don't believe that he would have lost that much power as a light heavyweight and he may have been a little faster than he was as a heavyweight.

I believe that Jimmy Ellis would have been a great light heavyweight.

I should have mentioned that five of Jimmy Ellis' losses to bigger heavyweights were when he was over 33 years of age. Those losses were to Ernie Shavers, Ron Lyle, Joe Bugner, Boone Kirkman, and his second fight with Joe Frazier. Ellis was 35 when he lost his second fight with Frazier (Frazier was 31), and 34 when he lost to Lyle and Bugner (who were both younger).

Jimmy Ellis was 31 when he lost to 29 year old Muhammad Ali and he was outweighed by more than 30 lbs. Jimmy was 30 when he lost his first bout to Joe Frazier, who was 26 at the time.

It would have been nice for Jimmy to fight in the light heavyweight division where he would not have had to fight bigger fighters or any monsters like Joe Frazier.

[Scypion]

Also, Jimmy Ellis' fight with Bugner was in England. His fight with Lyle was in his hometown of Denver. His fight with Kirkman was in his hometown of Seattle. Ellis' fight with Larry Middleton was in his hometown of Landover, Md., but Jimmy managed to get a draw anyway. Jimmy was 31 when he fought Chuvalo in Toronto, Canada, and he was giving away more than 27 lbs. to George.

So, Jimmy Ellis was fighting bigger guys in their hometowns when he was older, but to be honest, Chuvalo was a couple of years older than Jimmy when they fought. Again, I think that Ellis could have done much better at light heavy. Angelo Dundee wanted Jimmy to stay in the light heavyweight division where he would not have had to contend with guys like Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali.

I believe that Ellis could have been Light Heavyweight Champion and maybe held that title for a few years or so if he fought in that division.

[Ambling Alp II]

Obviously we are speculating, but I would also guess that Ellis would have been a very good light heavyweight; at leas for a few years anyway. Pastrano was very good himself. Guess I would also lean towards Ellis.

[Scypion]

I would think that it would have been easy street for Ellis to fight light heavyweights compared to fighting guys like Joe Frazier, Muhammad Ali, Ernie Shavers, Ron Lyle, George Chuvalo, Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonavena, Leotis Martin, etc., etc.

[Scypion]

As for Pastrano, Willie was kind of a light hitter. His 14 KO's out of 62 fights were mostly against boxers with not very good records, if they had any records (A couple of his KO's were against boxers having their first pro fight).

So, it seems to me that Jimmy Ellis would not have had to be as careful as he would have had to have been against guys like Frazier, Lyle, Shavers, etc. and could just wade in and really tee off against Pastrano. Willie did have a good chin, but it could have really gotten a test against Ellis.